Christian leaders ask for Muslim forgiveness

Kaleej Times via Jihad Watch ^ | Nov 26 2007

[Brandie]

Your right!

[MissouriConservative]

bump for later puking.

[MEGoody]

The prophets are not asking for the forgiveness of long dead Israelis.

Sorry, you are wrong.

Nehemiah 9:2 "And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers."

Daniel 9:16 "O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us."

[redstateconfidential]

Just like the America hating priests that endorse and protect illegal law breakers.

[ckilmer]

The prophets are not asking for the forgiveness of long dead Israelis.

Sorry, you are wrong.

Nehemiah 9:2 “And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.”

Daniel 9:16 “O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.”
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This is pretty good. Here’s the rub. The sins of the fathers went back three generations. Three generations was the maximum for which the sins of the fathers could go down;

In order for your analogy to hold true for current circumstances— Daniel and Nehemiah would have been apologizing for the sins of the Jews in Egypt—or those sins committed 1000 years earlier. (You can say they had already left egypt if you like.)

That’s not what they would have been apologizing for. Rather, the Jews had taken on the abominations of the Canaanites. They killed their children in the valley of Hinon. They had broken the contract that God made with them when they entered the promised land. God’s blessing on the Israelites was strictly conditional. They were allowed to conquer Canaan not because they were so good but rather because the Canaanites were so bad. (Even later the Romans were appalled by Carthaginians child sacrifice practices. The Cartheginians were a Canaanite people.) The abominations of the Caananites were child sacrifice and male & female temple prostitution. The Israelites where sacrificing their children in the valley of hinon when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem in 589 BC. The prophets believed that the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem not because they were so good but rather because the Israelites were so bad ie they had broken their covenant with God.

If, for example, the liberal theologians had apologized to God and then to the Moslems for supporting abortion and homosexuality—the apology would have been scriptural and understood by everyone—including the Moslems.

As it is, this sort of hokum the liberal theologians signed off on just promotes witchcraft.

[ZULU]

I don;t ask for their “forgiveness” they should be asking for ours.

I ask for their conversion or departure.

[DManA]

I’m a Lutheran. I view Benedict as a great Christian leader and take very seriously everything he says.

There is no point in a Muslim/Christian religious dialog. A dichotomy separates us. If God spoke the Muhammad through an angle, then Christianity is the worlds biggest hoax. If God is indeed a Trinity, then Muhammad is either a liar or was influenced by demons. There is no compromise position.

[tob2]

Muhammad didn’t know if he spoke to an angel or a devil. Therefore, I suspect most of the beliefs of the Muslims.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

“We want to begin by acknowledging that in the past (e.g. in the Crusades)..."

They're apologizing for people who tried to defend themselves from terror, oppression and death?

[Conservative4Ever]

I am speechless. Are these people nuts?

[ConservativeMind]

But your references only mention they confessed their own sins. As for their fathers, they spoke of the sins of their fathers, but didn’t confess them as their own nor ask for forgiveness of their father’s sins. However, they would have likely asked for mercy for themselves for the failings their father’s sins had brought upon them.

[MEGoody]

The sins of the fathers went back three generations.

Scripture on that please.

[ckilmer]

Exodus 34:4-9 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

4And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

9And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O LORD, let my LORD, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance

[EBH]

New testament...the savior ...Jesus Christ...changed all that.

[SJackson]

I see F15Eagle and ckilmer have given you citations. I couldn't find the original reference on the thread so I don't know the context, but I'll note that per Rashi the Exodus references relate to iniquity and willful sin. Willful, knowledgeable, and rebellious acts done to satisfy base desires, as well as to anger God. Consider both verses relate to idolatry. Specific circumstances at a specific time, I wouldn't suggest your sins impact your descendents to the fourth generation.

[aruanan]

As it is, this sort of hokum the liberal theologians signed off on just promotes witchcraft.

I don't think there's a single morally despicable act that some liberal theologian somewhere hasn't embraced for what he (or she) claims are godly reasons.

[MEGoody]

Consider both verses relate to idolatry.

I would agree, if you consider 'idolatry' to be any belief that puts anyone or anything in a position of authority rather than God (not necessarily just the actual bowing down to an idol). I recently read an essay by an Orthodox Jew who believed that was how the ancient Israelites viewed it.

I wouldn't suggest your sins impact your descendents to the fourth generation.

We can debate what this verse means, but it would take us off on another direction from the current discussion. To help you with context, ckilmer originally claimed the men in this article who asked for forgiveness were dead in their sins, and that was supposedly shown because they asked for forgiveness on behalf of previous generations. There is ample precedent in the bible for that being a right and proper thing to do, and that was what I had pointed out to ckilmer.

[MEGoody]

As you posted, the verse says 'unto the third and the fourth generation'. If you want to take that literally as you seem to be implying, then you were wrong in your post to me, because you said it was no more than the third generation.

Having said that, I don't see anywhere in this verse where, if one asks forgiveness for generations older than the third or fourth, that it is a sin or would prove that someone is 'dead in their sins', which is what you originally claimed.

Further, the verses I posted to you don't say anything about the prophets asking God to forgive the sins of their fathers "back to the third or fourth generation, but I know you won't forgive the sins of the fathers in older generations."

So, nice try, but you are still wrong.

[ELS]

What was THIS "LETTER" from the Moslems?

Here you go (PDF file) and a thread posted today with the Vatican's response.