Posted on 11/30/2007 8:15:25 PM PST by RedRover
I have not denied a VBIED attack - no one has. I have said there MAY have been an ambush of some sort at the VBIED site, although I doubt it - if so, it would be the only one done in that area. The question is what happened on the return to the FOB, since the Marines continued to shoot and kill people the entire distance. There is no physical evidence that they were under attack the entire distance. The people doing the shooting claimed they were, but others disagreed - including Americans.
There have been no ambushes next to the FOB Fenty, nor any ambushes that I heard about anywhere along the highway. IED attacks, yes. Ambushes, no. They are not the same thing.
The FOB border extends along the road for perhaps 1.5 miles...I never measured it.
A VBIED has no need to worry about a helicopter - it is a one shot bomb (often suicidal), not a sustained attack.
Please also note that even the General in the article made no attempt to defend what happened on the drive back to the FOB.
I couldn't disagree with you more. IEDs are a munition used almost exclusively to ambush unsuspecting victims.
They and the insurgents who set them off lay in wait, both hidden, until our forces are within range, then the IED is set off, often accompanied by small arms fire by the insurgents.
I couldn't think of a more accurate description of an ambush than the typical attack which involves an IED.
the Marines continued to shoot and kill people the entire distance
Then why aren't there hundreds of civilians dead?
There is no physical evidence that they were under attack the entire distance.
How do you know that? What physical evidence is there that the Marines were shooting at people the entire stretch, and how has this test been applied to the other side? Have investigators described to you how they can tell which pockmarks on individual buildings came from whose weapon and when it was fired? Have the insurgents involved given statements?
The people doing the shooting claimed they were, but others disagreed - including Americans
Besides the obvious implication that only Marines were shooting, you state that others, including Americans claim these Marines lied.
Name 'em.
nor would there be any reason to do so immediately next to a major FOB with regular helicopter patrols and helicopters on alert........I’ve gone jogging within sight and easy rifle range of this road many times.
I'm sure that you're right. I used my post as an example of using civilians as cover and the way somebody could use a rolling ambush.
I have no knowledge about the lay of the land on that road. But just an FYI, there are several ways to conduct ambush operations on blocked and unblocked roads. As long as I had time and support of the locals, I'm sure that with IED's, mortars, automatic weapon fire and RPGs I might be able to make parts of a road not fun to jog on. The choppers would be the dicey part of the problem.
But if I wanted to kill choppers with some Igla or strela missiles then I'd make sure the ambush was an easy hop from the airfield.
From what your saying this was just Marines gone wild. The whole unit. I just find it tough to buy what your selling here.
If you spend 6 months training to kick ass no questions asked, and are put into an area where counterinsurgency tactics say ‘work with the locals and pass up opportunities unless you are completely certain of the target’...bad things will happen, particularly during the first few months.
I almost believed some of the stuff you posted till you wrote this cr#p. You don't know anything about Marine or even Army training and are blowing smoke, pal.
I don't know much, but I know counter-insurgency at the tactical level. Learned a little in Indonesia, a little more in Central America and a tiny bit more in Africa and a lot in India.
Marines are never trained to just "Kick ass, no questions asked" The old Marine Corps caveman cr#p went out a long time ago.
Maybe the good officer is showing the locals how much he loves them by bagging the whole unit up for "killing innocent civilians". But there comes a point where the insurgents use our laws against us.
That's what this whole legal flogging for good judgement is doing to us. It inserts a moment of hesitation during a fight that might cripple us and result in soldiers and Marines dying.
I know that it's just the area commander's way of letting the populace know that we don't tolerate the murder of innocent civilians. But the flip side is the morale crushing this does to what may turn out to be a good counter ambush response.
...... Now for the good stuff, I don't know you from a cow pie, but how exactly were you trained to respond to an ambush?
The reason I ask is because of the way you described the Marines as going off without thinking and implying that they lied and they covered up for it. You obviously had the answer and need to educate us, .... me, in the correct response to an ambush.
Believe what you want, but this is not a case of mean Army guys or butt-kissing paper pushers conducting a witch hunt based on press accounts./i>
thanks, I'll believe what I want then.
i'll send the good general the sanitary wipes for his nose and some industrial strength chap stick. ......
that is funny!! thanx.
My pleasure : )
I am amazed at your comment: “The eyes tell all. Don’t ask..don’t tell”
So tell me, is this how you make judgments? What do you know about this LTG? you infer he is gay by just looking at a picture?
What would your actions as commander be if your subordinates came to you and said there is a possible incident of civilians inadvertently killed...you would take no action? Would you look them in the eyes and know the truth?
Two things that strike me as odd. One Army Maj. Gen. Francis H. Kearney III as head of Special Operations Command Central seems to have pretty lose lips. Aren’t special operations suppose to be secret. Two Army Col Nicholson offered a sniveling, grovelling apology on behalf of the Marine Corps. Payments to Afghanis in these sort of incidents seem to be culturally appropriate but should have been done discreetly with tribal elders and in close coordination with the Marine Corps every step of the way, not on the front page of the Washington Post! In no way shape or form should the Army be allowed to take it upon itself to be appoligising for the Marine Corps. the Army really needs to be slaped down over this one.
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