Cherchen Man
Posted on 12/02/2007 5:07:55 PM PST by blam
Mystery Mummy
A National Geographic Special about the mysterious 4,000 year old Caucasian Mummies found in China will air on The National Geographic Channel at 9:00PM EST tonight.
Click here to see a short video on the subject.
The DirecTV satellite channel number is 276.
I have a number of books on this subject and will monitor this thread through-out the movie and discuss it with anyone who desires.
Thanks, blam. Should be interesting.
Cherchen Man
Thanks, blam!
My God, thats Hugh Hefner !!!!!!
So what is the speculation?
OK, I watched the trailer. Now I’m hooked and am gonna have to watch the show.
BTTT! Thanks blam, love your posts.
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Thanks Blam. Gonna TiVo the Sopranos? ;') |
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Caucasians were in the area early and the Han Chinese started moving into the area around 100-200BC.
Some believe this region (Gansu Province, China) is the homeland of Europeans.
Nah. I had the time wrong. The Soprano's come on an hour later than I thought.
waiting for Bill Clinton to say “he’d hit it”
Isn’t there a race of folks who like live on an island somewhere over there that have all the features of being Asian except they are blue eyed?
A blue eyed Chinese gal - I could definitely get worked up over that!
What does nancy pelosi have to do with this story? I guess they made a mistake and put her picture instead of the mummy’s.
EXCERPT
VICTOR MAIR: The clothes they were wearing are the clothes of the local people here in Kucha at the time, and it’s similar to Iranian clothes of that period.
JEANNINE DAVIS-KIMBALL: Oh, look! Look up there. You see the guy with the horse and the pointed hat?
VICTOR MAIR: Oh.
JEANNINE DAVIS-KIMBALL: There’s three of them on that horse. There’s three Saka there, with the pointed hats? Three Saka nomads.
NARRATOR: Many of the faces on the walls have Indian characteristics and caste marks. Others are plainly Europeans, painted in the style of classical Greece and Rome. There are also mounted warriors wearing trousers and boots, their bow cases slung over their saddles.
VICTOR MAIR: I would also like to point out the recurved bow in this individual kneeling up here. I think that’s fascinating. You see a hunting scene of a man with a recurved bow shooting.
NARRATOR: In the gloomy recesses of one of the caves, the scholars find a crucial clue to the identity of the Tocharians: not a painting, but script. Amazingly, the Tocharian tongue is more closely related to the languages of Western Europe—with their Indo-European origin—than to those of Asia. More than likely, the speaker of this Western tongue were of Western provenance themselves. The puzzle is coming together. Tartan textiles, European faces, shared ritual practices, and now a close affiliation with European languages. They belong to a people related to those who lived in eastern Europe in a region around the Urals and the Black Sea. Most of their common ancestors migrated west. The mummy people went east, through the Russian Steppes, to the Takla Makan. But how long did they survive here? Were the Tocharians in fact their descendants? There’s no way to be sure without seeing an authentic likeness of the Tocharians. The guide knows an isolated cave with portraits of the individuals who sponsored the cave building. It’s a dangerous climb, more than 100 feet above the valley floor.
JEANNINE DAVIS-KIMBALL: Isn’t that something? Up the ladders and across that ledge?
CHARLOTTE ROBERTS: Well, that was a bit of a climb! Do you think it was well worth it now you’ve seen the place?
VICTOR MAIR: Oh, well, I would say so. There are some pretty impressive features in this cave. In this vaulted ceiling above us, we have a lot of Buddhas with kneeling figures beside them. And the kneeling figures look like they’re Tocharians. So, he’s a local person, a Tocharian, but wearing elements of costume.
NARRATOR: In a small passage at the back of the cave, Victor hits pay dirt.
VICTOR MAIR: I see the red beard and the red hair parted in the middle. It’s a distinctive style of Tocharians. He’s wearing a coat with wide lapels on both sides, and then folded over. It’s a shame that these figures have all been defaced by people of other faiths at some time in the past. But still, it’s very easy to see what they looked like, and we can tell who they were.
NARRATOR: The Tocharian figures are strikingly similar to the mummies that lived in these parts 1,000 years earlier. Victor’s quest has come full circle.
VICTOR MAIR: And the wide lapel, folded back. He’s got the red beard, red hair parted in the middle. This one has blond hair and a long nose, and an Indian caste mark, which we call a tika. So, he’s a local person, a Tocharian, but wearing elements of costume that are Sassanian or Persian influenced. And he has an Indian caste mark, so we see it’s a culmination of various traits which the Tocharians have adopted. By about the 10th Century, the Tocharians had almost disappeared from the stage of history. We don’t find any more documents written in Tocharian, and also, we don’t have any references to them in historical texts after that period. I suspect that what happened to them is that they were primarily absorbed by the Turkish peoples who were moving into this area and replacing them. I believe that the legacy of the earliest inhabitants of the Tarim Basin survive in the current modern populations. We can sometimes see individuals with blond hair, with light eyes, very fair skin. And where did they come from? I think these are the vestiges of the ancient peoples. They now believe that they are Uyghurs, or Tajiks or some other group. But in my estimation, these are just carrying on the old Tocharian influence.
NARRATOR: A people long dead and neglected have emerged to reclaim their place in history, and radically change our view of a critical time. Inhabitants of the Takla Makan desert, ethnically European people, breached China’s fabled isolation 1,000 years earlier than previously thought. Laying the foundation for the Great Silk Road, the mummy people shaped the very future of civilization. The mummies are a unique and irreplaceable treasure. Though we now understand something of their role in history, scientific examination of their bodies will doubtless yield invaluable insights. But inadequate conservation imperils the mummies’ condition. No one knows how long before these ancient mortals disintegrate and crumble into dust, anonymous and evanescent as the drifting sands.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2502chinamum.html
Not to my knowledge.
Bricks With Molded Designs Unearthed In Chongqing
(Caucasians in Ancient China)
Xinhuanet.com/China View | 1-12-2004
Posted on 01/12/2004 12:28:45 PM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1056341/posts
Multiplication Table From 1,800 Years Ago Discovered In Hunan
Peoples Daily | 3-9-2004
Posted on 03/09/2004 7:04:42 PM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1094206/posts
Discoveries Reveal A Flourishing Dunhuang 1,000 Years Ago
Xinhuanet | 3-21-2004 | China View
Posted on 03/21/2004 5:37:15 PM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1102560/posts
Heavenly Wonder Of Ancient China Goes On Show
(1,300 Year-Old Star-Chart)
Ananova | 5-3-2004
Posted on 05/03/2004 7:02:04 PM EDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1128978/posts
Caves Hold Clue To The Riddle Of The Three Hares
The Telegraph (UK) | 7-3-2004
Posted on 07/03/2004 5:43:19 PM EDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1164968/posts
China’s miracle in the desert is drying up
NYT | 05/27/05 | Jim Yardley
Posted on 05/28/2005 8:56:03 AM EDT by TigerLikesRooster
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1412212/posts
New Evidence Suggests Longer Paper Making History In China
China.org - Xinhua News Agency | 8-13-2006
Posted on 08/13/2006 6:58:00 PM EDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1683060/posts
Chinese Archaeologists Discover 2,000-Year-Old Leather Shoes
The Hindu | 9-9-2006
Posted on 09/09/2006 2:19:11 PM EDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1698467/posts
China: Mysterious building discovered in emperor’s tomb
(a buried step-pyramid?)
China Economic Net | 07/01/07
Posted on 07/01/2007 3:31:24 AM EDT by TigerLikesRooster
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1859076/posts
Desertification Threatens Ancient Chinese Town [Dunhuang]
Discover | November 20, 2007 | AFP
Posted on 11/30/2007 2:31:21 PM EST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1932920/posts
They’re working on the DNA, hope they give results before show ends. Kinda like to know who “Pale Rider” is.
My grandfather (Toler), that I never met, told my mom that he was Scots Irish and the devil.
We had DNA sample over 10 years ago. The Chicoms wouldn't let Mair and company leave with them...they took the samples at the border.
What you just saw (in my opinion) on the NG Channel was a compromise on how the DNA data would be interperted and presented and the western influences down-played. Pisses me off.
those danged crackers sure could walk
"I'd hit that, I swear."
It was still a good show. History is not always what we think. Of course, I’m not a historian like you.
Ha! I'm a retired chip-maker.
This is an updated version of a story that goes back at least 10 years. National Geographic had a piece on it a number of years ago.
There are multiple mummies and their tattoo markings, method of burial, tools and patterned fabrics point to Celtic origins.
What I KNOW about this would fit into a thimble, but: Legend has it that after the Flood, when Noah and his family came out of the ark, Noah and his wife and family other than his 3 grown sons eventually migrated to the Orient.
We know that Shem is the patriarch of Semitic people; Ham is the patriarch of black people, (The O.T. refers to Africa as “the land of Ham) and I guess Japheth is the patriarch of the races we now call caucasians.
The Orientals/Asians supposedly (at least to Believers in the O.T.) came from Noah. Where the “slanted” eyes, technically known as “the Mongoloid fold” came from, only The Lord knows. It had to have been in Noah’s genes and eventually became dominant.
Ver-r-r-r-ry Inter-r-r-r-r-resting!
That was my take too. Only the Chinese invented anything worthwhile and no Celts taught them anything. They certainly didn't explain the plaid, weaving or red hair. What I heard was puckered brown lips liberally applied.
OK, they found the mummies . . .
. . . But where are the daddies?
And the kiddies?
In the late 1980's, perfectly preserved 3000-year-old mummies began appearing in a remote Taklamakan desert. They had long reddish-blond hair, European features and didn't appear to be the ancestors of modern-day Chinese people. Archaeologists now think they may have been the citizens of an ancient civilization that existed at the crossroads between China and Europe.
Victor Mair, a specialist in the ancient corpses and co-author of “Mummies of the Tarim Basin”, said:"Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Krygyzs, the peoples of Central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. The modern and ancient DNA tell the same story.”
A Tocharian man with red-blond hair; his clear European features still visible after nearly 3,500 years in his desert grave in Taklamakan. This mummified man was approximately 40 years old at the time of his death.
I don’t see the mystery. Hasn’t everyone read about Conan?
This was obviously the kingdom he came from and later ruled.
NG had an article on this some years ago; one anecdote I recall involved some small pottery piece, which retained a fingerprint (presumably the potter) in the fired clay. When this was pointed out, the Chicom supervising everything asked someone involved if ethnicity could be determined by the patterns in the print (I doubt it, BTW). No one knew, but the pottery piece was spirited off, never seen again.
What I KNOW about this would fit into a thimble, but: Legend has it that after the Flood, when Noah and his family came out of the ark, Noah and his wife and family other than his 3 grown sons eventually migrated to the Orient.
We know that Shem is the patriarch of Semitic people; Ham is the patriarch of black people, (The O.T. refers to Africa as “the land of Ham) and I guess Japheth is the patriarch of the races we now call caucasians.
The Orientals/Asians supposedly (at least to Believers in the O.T.) came from Noah. Where the “slanted” eyes, technically known as “the Mongoloid fold” came from, only The Lord knows. It had to have been in Noah’s genes and eventually became dominant.
Ver-r-r-r-ry Inter-r-r-r-r-resting!
****************************
I had a black co-driver who said he had a theory that oriental eyes were like that because people migrating east from Euro-Africa you would have to stare into the sun, so evolution made the eyes like that to reduce the glare.
I told him that was the dumbest thing I have ever heard, one person can walk from Spain to Japan in less then 10 years which is not enough time for evolution to work its magic.
He then said it wasn’t what he believed in but something he heard.
I think it’s an adpatation to the cold. The Oriental features probably arrived during the Last Glacial Maximum, 18-23,000 years ago.
that is exactly what I figured....
the DNA was still apparently predominately Caucazoid with some intermngling maybe
not they claimed it was Cosmopolitan like New York
it also seemed they were reluctant to show how advanced these caucazoids were relative to their time and sorta portrayed them as rather primitive with bronze age gadgets they “probably mimicked”
seemed like another let’s water down anyting remotely positive about Caucasians
Yup. They didn’t tell me whether they were R1a’, R1b, ‘I’ and ect. Those are European DNA haplogroups and I’m not sure that the East Asians of the time didn’t have the same. So, when they said mixed with East Asians, I laughed out loud. I’ve been waiting ten years for haplogroups...that’s the only thing that will shut me up and they’re deliberately not telling.
I’m not surprised that it disappeared. My daughter pointed out that if the Chinese were “insulted” by the findings that access to the mummies would cease. I realise that but misinformation is of no use and taints historical findings.
So, I guess the adaptation wasn’t needed by anyone else, because they lived on a tropical beach? ;’) The eye fold is a leftover from Erectus.
Great threads....i actually heard some girl on NPR today talking about this and how the Chinese were controlling this for their cultural “integrity”
So...why doesn't everyone have it?
Ha! I’m a retired chip-maker.
Potato or Poker?
Not all the Erectus had it, just those from that (multi-)region.
Computer. (TI)
Actually I had guessed that.
Yes, I was being a wiseass.
;-)
I had my suspicions. I still got a laugh because my ex-neighbor worked at Frito-Lay in Rosenberg, Texas.
He would always say "what a conscidence that we both make chips."
His chips taste better!
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