Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Spray vs. gun bear deterrent debate rages
the Missoulian ^ | December 03 2007 | JOHN CRAMER

Posted on 12/03/2007 3:09:30 PM PST by george76

Long ago, grizzly bears thrived in Montana as did tales - some tall, some true - told by frontiersmen of a man-eater even more fearsome than the other two bogeymen of the forest, wolves and mountain lions.

Today, the reputation of Ursus arctos horribilis - along with other major predators ...

Also changed is how people can handle encounters with grizzlies, using a chemical spray rather than guns to improve the odds that both humans and bears will escape the encounters unharmed.

But Workman believes that if a bullet was good enough for his great-grandfather more than a century ago, then it's good enough for him when confronted by a charging grizzly, especially since he's wielding a modern, high-powered rifle.

It's an opinion held by many hunters, but Workman also is a member of Montana's Fish, Wildlife and Parks Commission, the citizen board that oversees the state Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks.

And that agency, along with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, devotes considerable resources each year on bear awareness programs that emphasize chemical spray, not bullets, as the way to keep both people and bears safe in the woods.

Last week, Workman drew widespread criticism from bear biologists, wildlife officials and some hunters when he shot a charging grizzly - and later said bullets are far more effective than bear spray in fending off such an attack.

“These people who think that they're safe with bear spray, I'm here to tell them it's a false sense of security,” he said.

“The spray is better than nothing, but I'll choose a firearm every time.”

Workman...also drew fire for saying grizzlies have become so populous in Montana that they should be taken off the endangered species list and hunted to make them afraid of people.

(Excerpt) Read more at missoulian.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Government; US: Montana
KEYWORDS: animalrights; ar; banglist; bear; bearattack; bearattacks; bears; bearspray; blackbear; grizzly; grizzlybear; grizzlybears; sss; usfws
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-131 next last
Do not forget your little brass bells...

/s

.

1 posted on 12/03/2007 3:09:30 PM PST by george76
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: george76

I have a right to spray armed bears!..............


2 posted on 12/03/2007 3:12:00 PM PST by Red Badger ( We don't have science, but we do have consensus.......)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Myrddin; LucyT; Troublemaker; tubebender; SierraWasp

Chris Servheen, a Missoula-based bear biologist is not happy.

8-)


3 posted on 12/03/2007 3:12:39 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: george76

4 posted on 12/03/2007 3:13:10 PM PST by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: george76
If you are alone, you must have a firearm.

If you are in a group, pepper spray the bear, and while he is temporarily blinded hand the spray can to someone else in the group.

5 posted on 12/03/2007 3:13:50 PM PST by dirtboy (Ron Paul - blame America first but still bill her for the shrimp)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: george76
"Do not forget your little brass bells..."

That's right. It's always good to announce dinner's arrived. I'm sure the bear appreciates the diversity of cuisine in a pot luck that includes hot and spicy.

6 posted on 12/03/2007 3:14:37 PM PST by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: george76

The bears just might LIKE spicy hot man meat.


7 posted on 12/03/2007 3:14:48 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Red Badger

running faster than the person next to you is better than either.


8 posted on 12/03/2007 3:15:35 PM PST by bravo whiskey (everybody's shot. drive the truck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: george76
diff between brown bear and grizzly...it’s in the droppings

brown bear...twigs, berries,fish scales,bee remains..

grizz...twigs,berries,fish scales,pepper spray cans,whistles,sneakers,sunglasses,maps of bear locations for liberals and greenies

9 posted on 12/03/2007 3:17:00 PM PST by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RKV

You got it, THAT is basically America’s most lethal gun, period. The mildest ammo you can find for a 45/70 will absolutely flatten any North American game including grizzlies.


10 posted on 12/03/2007 3:18:11 PM PST by damondonion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: george76
they should be taken off the endangered species list and hunted to make them afraid of people.

These Yogi's are a lot smarter than some give credit for. A new problem is that bears are adapting to hunters by stalking them to either get the leftovers from their kills or even stealing the kills outright. There have also been human encounters during these circumstances.

11 posted on 12/03/2007 3:20:28 PM PST by umgud (the profound is only so to those that it is)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: george76

Know how to tell if bear scat is from a griz?

It smells like pepper spray, has tiny bells in it and it’s full of human bone chips and hair...


12 posted on 12/03/2007 3:20:29 PM PST by trailboss800
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: damondonion; RKV

As long as you have both the nerve and the skill to hit the bear in the right spot. Especially if it’s moving. Most especially if it’s moving at you, as in this case you may not get a 2nd shot.

Not saying that you don’t, just pointing out that it’s not for everyone.


13 posted on 12/03/2007 3:21:39 PM PST by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Carry_Okie; Grampa Dave; NormsRevenge; Eska; redpoll; ASOC; RightWhale; fish hawk; maine-iac7

” I’m sure there are situations where bear spray could be adequate, but the only weapon that saved me from getting eaten was my rifle,” ...


14 posted on 12/03/2007 3:22:04 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: bravo whiskey

Playing dead doesn’t work?...............


15 posted on 12/03/2007 3:22:09 PM PST by Red Badger ( We don't have science, but we do have consensus.......)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: RonF

Shot placement is far less critical with the 45/70 than with the usual 30-cal rifles most people hunt with. With 420 - 500 gr bullets the big Marlins will put African game down quickly and a grizzly simply isn’t that big.


16 posted on 12/03/2007 3:28:02 PM PST by damondonion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Red Badger
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
17 posted on 12/03/2007 3:30:19 PM PST by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Red Badger

Heck, sometimes playing “real” dead doesn’t work !! Then they eat you, and it’s not a very pretty sight.


18 posted on 12/03/2007 3:32:28 PM PST by Colorado Cowgirl (God bless America!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Cobra64

I must retire to my chambers to consider and contemplate all the evidence in your appeal.......


19 posted on 12/03/2007 3:32:38 PM PST by Red Badger ( We don't have science, but we do have consensus.......)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: george76
LOL, I can see it now .......

Man (spraying Bear): Come on, make my day. I’ve got a super-sized can of “Kick Some Grizzly Butt!” pepper spray just for you!”

Bear (killing Man): “Ummm, nice of this creature to bring along some pepper. They always taste better with some seasoning. After I’m done killin’ it, I’ll drag its body over to the salt-lick, and have my meal with a full set of condiments.”

20 posted on 12/03/2007 3:36:42 PM PST by Col Freeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: george76

Can someone tell me if this situation could be resolved by pepper spray.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnsL7-UdGc


21 posted on 12/03/2007 3:37:01 PM PST by fishhound
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: damondonion

Is the 45-70 of which you speak the same as the 45-70 Government?


22 posted on 12/03/2007 3:37:02 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (Merry Christmas!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: ButThreeLeftsDo

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/Marlin_2005_Cat.pdf


23 posted on 12/03/2007 3:41:54 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: trailboss800

You forgot the gold nugget chains, Masonic rings and Bear tooth on a leather string...


24 posted on 12/03/2007 3:43:24 PM PST by tubebender (The probability of being watched is directly proportional to the stupidity of your act.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: george76; Dark Wing; Dog Gone

Against grizzlies, nuclear hand grenades are in order.


25 posted on 12/03/2007 3:47:41 PM PST by Thud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: george76

“The spray is better than nothing, but I’ll choose a firearm every time.”


My experience with charging grizzlies is that throwing fish at them from a tree just makes them madder...I refuse to contemplate what annoying them with perfume would provoke.


26 posted on 12/03/2007 3:48:27 PM PST by crazyhorse691 (The faithful will keep their heads down, their powder dry and hammer at the enemies flanks.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: george76; All

True, the 45/70 will take down a bear, but anything greater than a 30.06 is good for bear. .300 Win Mags are a good bet, as are .375 and a good slug shotgun.

Of course, a strong backup is a good idea too, preferably someone you trust standing behind you to finish the deal if need be.

If a .375 can topple a Cape Buffalo, it can take out a grizz with no problems.

Grizz meat is good too.


27 posted on 12/03/2007 3:49:42 PM PST by shag377 (De gustibus non disputandum est)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: damondonion

Big Marlin/Garrett ammo here. No pepper spray needed.


28 posted on 12/03/2007 3:49:51 PM PST by Sender (You are the weapon. What you hold in your hand is just a tool.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: george76
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
30 posted on 12/03/2007 3:53:15 PM PST by ansel12 (Proud father of a 10th Mountain veteran. Proud son of a WWII vet. Proud brother of vets, Airborne)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: george76

I have been told that a 12 gauge with #4 shot works well at close range.


31 posted on 12/03/2007 3:53:16 PM PST by wjcsux (Islam: The religion of choice for those who are too stupid for Scientology)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ansel12

LOL!!


32 posted on 12/03/2007 3:54:06 PM PST by wjcsux (Islam: The religion of choice for those who are too stupid for Scientology)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: shag377

[Grizz meat is good too.]

Cook it well - trichinosis is endemic in bears. I treated a fellow who contracted it from eating undercooked grizzly meat. He was in the hospital for 3 weeks and nearly died.


33 posted on 12/03/2007 3:55:04 PM PST by 43north (I hope we are around long enough to become a layer in the rocks of the future.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: wjcsux

I think that maybe you might have been told 12 ga with size 4 buckshot. Big difference.

Then again, I’ve been wrong before....

;-)


34 posted on 12/03/2007 4:00:03 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (Merry Christmas!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: wjcsux

[I have been told that a 12 gauge with #4 shot works well at close range.]

Only if you really want to pi$$ that bear off really good.

The Alaska Dept. of F & G tested various ammo on a collection of green (as in not yet dry) bear skull several years ago.

They found that contrary to popular legend, buckshot did not penetrate the skulls. It might do a good job of shredding soft tissue but the brain will still be connected to the teeth and claws.

Their study showed that any centerfire rifle caliber from .308 Winchester on up would penetrate ALL of the skulls they had.

The older type of round-nose hollow base shotgun slugs often deflected off the skull. The German Brenneke slug has a sharp shoulder like a wadcutter bullet and that one dug right in and did massive destruction. After those tests, the Brenneke slug became standard issue for LEO’s and fish cops in bear country. I spoke with a North Slope Borough LEO who had to shoot a grizzly in Deadhorse, AK with a Brenneke. It was a one shot kill and he was very pleased about that. After that, guess what kind of slugs 43north carried in his 12ga. when he wasn’t carrying his Marlin .45/70 (or is .22 pistol)?

Like Elmer Keith always said - “Big bullets let in a lot of air and they let out a lot of blood.”


35 posted on 12/03/2007 4:03:58 PM PST by 43north (I hope we are around long enough to become a layer in the rocks of the future.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: damondonion
This is useful too, but considered too heavy to be carried on a regular basis, unless of course, Uncle Sam is paying you to do so...


36 posted on 12/03/2007 4:14:26 PM PST by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Same thing. It’s a leftover cartridge from the age of black-powder cartridges in the late 1800s, the name basically meant 45 caliber, 70 grains of black powder. Antique guns and replicas still shoot that sort of load; nonetheless when you load 45/70 ammo with modern smokeless powder, you’re talking about a bullet weighing 300 - 500 grains moving at 1500 - 1800 fps, and it’s not a tail-heavy bullet so it doesn’t veer or yaw going through large animals.


37 posted on 12/03/2007 5:07:08 PM PST by damondonion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: fishhound

I believe you are asking a rhetorical question. Can you imagine trying to lay down a bead of pepper spray in hopes of hitting that beast in the face before she ripped your spleen from its moorings? Those guys are professional hunters and you can hear the panic in their voices as that she demon makes a beeline for their position. Time to break out the bazooka and clean underwear.


38 posted on 12/03/2007 5:18:33 PM PST by Honor above all (I'm only here to help.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: damondonion

Thanks. I wasn’t sure if there was a 45/70 and a 45/70 gov. Obviously, the 450 Marlin is a different animal.

A friend of mine acquired a lever action 45/70 gov. a few years ago. Not sure of the manufacturer. Hex barrel. Nice looking piece. The party that sold it to him assured him that it would handle modern cartridges. We always talk about shooting it but have never gotten around to it. Maybe it’s that curved steel butt plate with no other means of recoil suppression that has us holding off.

;-)


39 posted on 12/03/2007 5:31:20 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (Merry Christmas!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: george76

Lightweights! Wrestle em’ down with bare hands.


40 posted on 12/03/2007 5:34:32 PM PST by 444Flyer (NEVER take a "mark" to "buy or sell"!Jos24:15, Rev 22:17,John 3:1-36, Eph 6, Rev 12:11, Jer 29:13-14)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Doogle

You forgot the un-opened bag of granola.


41 posted on 12/03/2007 6:00:02 PM PST by fishhound
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: fishhound

*LOL*..yeah now stomped to crumbs


42 posted on 12/03/2007 6:16:09 PM PST by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Col Freeper
*rotflol*...this is funny, hadn’t laff’d this hard the shower scene..
43 posted on 12/03/2007 6:21:43 PM PST by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Honor above all

I can’t imagine stopping that much mass on full tilt boogie with any special magic mist.

I heard the panic and dissapointment.
That guy had steel nerve.

Definitely clean underwear.


44 posted on 12/03/2007 6:21:49 PM PST by fishhound
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Doogle
hadn’t laff’d this hard the shower scene..

see..I missed using words cuz I'm laffin so hard...since the shower scene

45 posted on 12/03/2007 6:24:04 PM PST by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Doogle

I missed adding the envelope of Hillary bumperstickers to the pile.


46 posted on 12/03/2007 6:26:21 PM PST by fishhound
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: damondonion

How about a ruger alaskan 454 wheelgun to go with that rifle?


47 posted on 12/03/2007 6:39:13 PM PST by Armedanddangerous (Chuin, Master of Sinanju (emeritus))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: ButThreeLeftsDo

The .45-70 IS the .45 Govt, or .45-70 Govt. It is an 1873 cartridge that consists of a 500 grain flat based soft lead slug over 70 grains of compressed black powder. It launches the 500 grain slug at about 1700 fps, and was designed for, and will shoot through a horse at 600 yards from an original gun. Modern rifles with smokeless powder have slightly higher velocities but with lighter copper jacketed bullets still approximate the same energies as the original Black Powder loads.

If you do your homework you will find that there have been more Grizzlys killed with a .30-06, than with all other calibers combined.


48 posted on 12/03/2007 6:58:01 PM PST by Concho (IRS--Americas real terrorist organization.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: fishhound

I’ll take the rifle, thanks.


49 posted on 12/03/2007 7:03:40 PM PST by ryan71
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: 43north
That’the hardest I’ve laughed in days :)
50 posted on 12/03/2007 7:06:09 PM PST by ryan71
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-131 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson