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Exposing the "Flying Imams" (Good Read)
MiddleEastForum ^ | Dec. 7, 2007 | M. Zuhdi Jasser

Posted on 12/07/2007 4:44:06 AM PST by nuconvert

Exposing the "Flying Imams"

by M. Zuhdi Jasser

Middle East Quarterly/Winter 2008

(excerpt) (I cut out the intro and background on this Flying Imams case, just to shorten the article a bit)

My Experience with the Phoenix Imams

I have known three of the plaintiffs in the U.S. Airways suit for almost a decade. Soon after settling in Arizona in 1999, I became involved in the local Muslim community. Before moving to Scottsdale, I usually attended Friday congregational prayer services at the Islamic Community Center of Tempe, Arizona. Often, Ahmed Shqeirat, now the primary plaintiff, delivered sermons at the mosque where he has long been imam. I was struck by the political nature of his sermons. He repeatedly criticized both U.S. domestic and foreign policy and often exaggerated Muslim victimization. He advocated political unification of Muslims internationally and blamed the United States, Israel, and the West for perceived slights. He called for the political empowerment of Muslims in American society.

After hearing several sermons, I spoke and wrote to him to express my dismay at his emphasis of political over spiritual topics. He responded that "secularism is Godlessness" and asserted a right to "speak about political injustice." The concept of purely spiritual Islam and creation of an intellectual environment welcoming to all Muslims regardless of political persuasion was anathema to him.

To give one example of his abuse of pulpit, during a Friday sermon in April 2004, he displayed an image, which CAIR had distributed, of an American soldier in Iraq with two young Iraqi boys. In the photo, the soldier held a sign saying, "Lcpl Boudreaux killed my dad, then he knocked up my sister."[15] Shqeirat neither made any attempt to verify the image's authenticity nor to determine, if real, whether it was representative. Nor, when he was asked, could he explain how such a display related to Islamic theology or spirituality. The goal of using faith identity to divide society highlights the incompatibility of Islamism with traditions of American culture and society.

I had similar concerns regarding the sermons of Marwan Saadeddin, another plaintiff, whose sermons I heard in the Phoenix Valley. Following the U.S. Air 300 incident, Saadeddin spun the incident to the media[16] and transformed it into a parable of victimization during a Friday sermon at a Phoenix Valley mosque. During the sermon, I heard him say, "I'd rather be dead than removed from an airplane in handcuffs." Such is the political and fanatical ranting of one of Arizona's leading imams. As is common among Islamist preachers, he substituted politics for theology and spirituality.

I also know Omar Shahin, another imam plaintiff. He resides in the Phoenix area and has been the head of the Valley Imam Council of Phoenix, the former imam of the Islamic Center of Tucson, a teacher with the Arizona Cultural Academy, and the imam of the Islamic Center of the East Valley. His hyperbole is typical of the Phoenix-area Islamists. He called the day of his eviction from the U.S. Air flight "the worst day of [his] life,"[17] a statement far more forceful than any he issued after the 9-11 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, the March 11, 2004 train bombings in Madrid, the July 7, 2005 London bus and Underground bombings, or in response to any Al-Qaeda video seeking to justify the murder of Americans and noncombatants in the name of religion. Indeed, he blamed the 9-11 attacks not on Muslim terrorists but on the CIA and FBI.[18]

There should also be concern regarding the involvement of some of the imams with Islamic charities shuttered because of their terror financing. Shahin was the Arizona representative of Kindhearts and the Holy Land Foundation, both of which the U.S. Treasury Department shut down because of their involvement with Hamas.[19] Saadeddin dismissed Hamas connections as any reason for concern, recently stating that, "Hamas has nothing to do with [the] United States. Talk about Al-Qaeda only, because this is where they hit America ... [If] America consider[s] it—the foreign policy of America consider[s] Hamas—as a terrorist. That's their business."[20]

Rally and Counter-rally

Had the Islamist imams only apologized for terrorism, it would be bad enough. But they have also sought to undercut the efforts of local Muslims to advocate against and condemn publicly terrorism conducted in the name of Islam. On November 9, 2001, I published my first commentary, arguing that the vast core of American Muslims were loyal to the flag and U.S. Constitution and that radical spokesmen did not represent the core community.[21] This article led to the formation of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD).

In Phoenix in 2004, AIFD organized the first Muslim rally against terrorism.[22] We first engaged the Arizona Interfaith Movement, a statewide inclusive interfaith leadership organization, to support Muslims willing to take this stance. We then approached the Valley Imam Council, which represents nearly all of the local Phoenix mosques and their imams. At the time, Shahin chaired the council. We made it clear that the rally would be apolitical and that the only purpose was to make clear, unambiguous statements about Islamic morality and ethics, including unequivocal statements that there is never any justification for suicide, terrorism (the intentional targeting of noncombatants), and homicide bombing.

Rather than support such goals, Shahin, Shqeirat, and Saadeddin directed the Valley Council of Imams to withdraw support. They used their pulpits instead to criticize the rally and its organizers. Citing the Arab-Israeli conflict, they objected to the idea that terrorism is always forbidden. The local CAIR chapter also withdrew. Once the Valley Council of Imams pulled out, the Interfaith Movement also withdrew support for fear that the rally would not advance harmony.

AIFD proceeded alone. The April 25, 2004 "Standing with Muslims against Terrorism" rally was then held without the public support of any local imams or any of the known Islamist organizations. The rally was a success. Four hundred people attended, perhaps half of whom were Muslims.[23] All major local networks covered it. When the media asked local imams about their refusal to participate, they responded by criticizing the rally's apolitical nature and said they would only attend rallies in which they could argue that U.S. foreign policy was a major cause of terrorism. They also objected to any linkage of Muslims with terrorism in the rally name.

Two weeks later, CAIR-Arizona held a counter "Muslim Americans for Human Rights and Dignity" rally in which they failed to condemn explicitly terrorism and terrorists by name. The rally drew only seventy-five people.[24] The failure of CAIR and the local imams to rally much support shows the falsehood of their claim to represent the mainstream Muslim community. Many Muslims recognize the problem posed by terrorists justifying their actions in Islam. To deny the association of Muslims with terrorism—as Islamist organizations like CAIR do—is counterproductive. The Islamist strategy of picking and choosing whom they identify as a Muslim depending on the situation is disingenuous. To deny that the Fort Dix terrorist attack plotters were not real Muslims, as CAIR-Arizona chairman (and U.S. Airways employee) Mohammed El-Sharkawy did, sidesteps the problem.[25] And to argue that only scholars can determine who is and who is not a true Muslim not only appropriates God's duty[26] but also diminishes the egalitarian nature of traditional Islam that accepts no intermediaries between the individual and God.[27]

Imposing Leadership

Creating intermediaries in order to claim false mandate remains the root of the imams' strategy. Organizations such as the National American Imams Federation and the Assembly of American Muslim Jurists exist to impose hierarchy and, from that self-appointed hierarchy, to establish the mandate to speak on behalf of the entire Muslim community. The Islamic Society of North America, an un-indicted coconspirator in the United States of America vs. Holy Land Foundation et al. terrorism financing trial,[28] formed a Leadership Development Center to train and indoctrinate imams.[29] On March 7, 2007, it announced a leadership certifying program for imams in conjunction with the National American Imams Federation.[30]

Establishing false leadership claims is also one reason why both CAIR and various Islamist imams attempt to partner with U.S. law enforcement. On CNN's Paula Zahn Now, Shahin said, "If you go back to our background, I am personally the chairperson for the police advisory board. I did a presentation for the FBI agent in Phoenix. I did [a] presentation with CAIR-Arizona to Yuma Air Force Base for more than 600 Marines."[31] For many imams, participation in such programs bestows or recognizes legitimacy. This is wrong on two counts, however. First, it again conflates policy work with religious legitimacy and, second, groups often exaggerate their partnerships. One Homeland Security official said, "It is not uncommon for that particular organization [CAIR] to issue a press release attempting to overstate their interaction with the department."[32] Within the mosque, however, congregants rarely question self-appointed Islamist spokesmen about the basis of their authority or legitimacy to represent attendees. Their inflated associations outside the mosque feed their own efforts to legitimize control and tribalization. And government and media acceptance of claims of victimization stops many non-Muslims from questioning the ideological motivations behind the religious rhetoric that many of these groups employ.

For moderate, traditional Islam to reassert itself against well-funded Islamist organizations, though, it is necessary to examine how political ideology pollutes spirituality. CAIR's involvement in the flying imam suit is problematic. Many Muslims have seen the call by Nihad Awad, executive director of CAIR's national office, for Muslims to report their victimization to CAIR. "Reporting to an organization like CAIR is important, because it is empowering. It is empowering to the Muslims themselves who report; it is empowering to the organization, and it is important to the status of Muslims within the United States," he told an audience at the All Dulles (Virginia) Area Muslim Society, urging them to inflate the Muslim component of the FBI's annual hate crime statistics to compare better to figures on anti-Jewish violence.[33] In 2005, for example, the FBI catalogued 848 anti-Semitic hate crimes, 128 anti-Islamic hate crimes, and 115 anti-Christian hate crimes.[34] In essence, therefore, CAIR's focus on victimization and minority politics is motivated by political Islam. The imams' victimization routine creates a self-fulfilling prophecy that CAIR can use to bolster its own claims to be a civil rights organization. It would be as if firefighters committed arson in order to bolster their position inside a community. That CAIR seeks to create facts to justify its political and foreign policy positions also shows the rigidity of its top-down approach to the community it claims to represent.

The Struggle for American Islam

While the press may focus on the flying imams case, for American Muslims, the battle is broader. On one side are the imams represented by CAIR, the Islamic Society for North America, and the North American Imams Federation, all of which lean toward an Islamist view supporting greater interplay between religion and politics and the primacy of sectarian identity. On the other side are Muslims embracing Western secular democracy. The two are mutually exclusive in their interpretation of religious hierarchy, the interplay between theology and contemporary politics, individuality, and tolerance.

Responsibility for the victory of traditional, tolerant, and pluralistic interpretations of Islam lies with Muslims and Muslims alone. The intellectual marginalization of Islamists is the duty of Muslims who value the principles upon which the United States was built and now stands. This requires recognizing the primacy of the Constitution in political life, even if Muslims turn to the Qur'an in their spiritual life. Islamists, though, insist that regardless of temporal government, the Qur'an should be the central guiding document for legislation and interpretation. Islamists believe the Qur'an is the only source of law while non-Islamists believe it is just one source.

Perhaps this was the reason why the Prophet Muhammad and his companions sought to avoid creation of the same religious intermediary class that today CAIR, the Islamic Society of North America, and the North American Imams Federation presume to fill.

Within the United States today, most Muslim organizations—CAIR, the North American Imams' Federation, the Assembly of Muslim Jurists of America, the Muslim Students' Association, the Islamic Society of North America, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, the Muslim American Society, the Islamic Circle of North America, and the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy—embrace the Islamist approach. Many imams affiliate themselves with these organizations, fundraise on their behalf, and parrot the political agenda of these organizations. The flying imams lawsuit is just one more example of the synergy between the North American Imams Federation and CAIR.

A few small organizations—the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, the American Islamic Congress, the Islamic Supreme Council of America, the Center for Eurasian Policy, and the Center for Islamic Pluralism—are moderate and support a separation between spirituality and temporal politics. They are underrepresented in terms of resources and organization. Still, it is this nascent anti-Islamist movement upon which the Muslim fight to embrace American pluralism and freedom depends. It is also essential for interfaith relations. Many Americans are hungry to hear from Muslims who are not apologists for terror, who are ready to lead the fight against militant Islamism, who respect the division between mosque and state, and who do not seek to use their religion as a vehicle to change the American political landscape.

The struggle of these two trends to define Islam in America will last generations. It will require development of a new Islamic ideology, one born from the founding ideology of the United States. This will require not only renewed ijtihad (interpretation) but also the confidence of American Muslims to overcome Islamist and radical Wahhabist attempts to label any effort to separate religion and government as bid‘a (illegitimate invention). While the transnational umma (Muslim community) might engage itself in issues regarding theology, charity, socialization, and worship, U.S. politics should be blind to faith. For any American citizen or resident, the concept of loyalty to umma should be subordinate to loyalty to state and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution.

Shari‘a (Islamic law) might guide Muslim individuals as they choose in their homes, but it should not be invoked in government. Faith will still inspire Muslim behavior and actions, as it does with followers of other religions, but it should not be articulated in government. The embrace and exposure of Islamist agendas will repel most Muslims. It is no surprise that despite its claims to represent American Muslims, CAIR's membership has plummeted 90 percent since 9-11,[35] a claim it first refuted as a "hit piece" before confirming it in an amicus brief to the Dallas federal court hearing in the Holy Land Foundation case.[36] A recent Pew Research Center poll showed that a plurality of Muslims believes mosques should remain apolitical,[37] a finding which suggests the majority may oppose theocracy and Islamism. The finding is also significant when put in the context of the fact that many Muslims came to the United States from autocratic societies where the mosque was often the only haven for political speech. That so many now desire apolitical sermons suggests that they have come to understand and appreciate the freedoms of U.S. society.

A Manifesto to Defeat Islamism

In 1964, Sayyid Qutb, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood's leading theoretician, published Ma‘alim fi al-Tariq (Milestones) in which he laid out steps to achieve an Islamic state and defeat the West. He described a generational process to ensure the victory of Islamism over Western liberal society. Liberal and traditional Muslims have yet to wage an effective counter-jihad against their Islamist brethren. There does not yet exist a liberal Muslim intellectual work equivalent to Milestones to lay the groundwork to defeat Islamism and ensure the creation of integrationist, tolerant American Muslim institutions.

A starting point to counter the Qutb construct would be for Muslim leaders to acknowledge ten points:

An Islamic narrative should not constrain universal human principles. Mosques should support the separation of church and state, even as they take stands on social or political issues. The affirmation of an egalitarian approach to faith beyond the constraints of simple tolerance. Tolerance implies superiority while pluralism implies equality. Recognition that if government enacts the literal laws of God rather than natural or human law, then government becomes God and abrogates religion and the personal nature of the relationship with God. Separation of mosque and state to include the abrogation of all blasphemy and apostasy laws. Empowerment of women's liberation and advocacy for equality as is currently absent in many Muslim-majority, misogynistic cultures. Ijtihad negating the need for Muslims active in politics today to bring theology into the political debate. Nowhere in the Qur'an does God tell Muslims to mix politics and religion or instruct by what document governments should be guided. Creation of movements and organizations that are specifically opposed to such radical or terrorism-supporting groups as Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Hizb ut-Tahrir, Jamaat al-Islamiya, and Al-Muhajiroun, to name a few, rather than simply being against undefined, generic notions of terrorism. Public identification without apologetics of leaders and governments of Muslim majority countries who are dictators and despots and are, as such, anti-liberty and anti-pluralism. Muslims enjoying freedom in the West have yet to create mass movements to liberate their motherlands from dictatorship and theocracy and to move these toward secular democracies founded on individual liberties for all based in natural law. Establishment of classical liberal Muslim institutions and think-tanks to articulate, disseminate, and educate concerning the above principles. The idea that individual liberty and freedom need not be mutually exclusive with Muslim theology must be taught to Muslim youth. Countering Islamism and combating Islamist terrorism should be a greater public responsibility for the organized American Muslim community than the obsession with civil rights and victimization in which current Islamist organizations engage. Americans living in fear for their security are looking to moderate, traditional Muslims to lead this fight. The credibility of the Muslim community suffers because groups such as CAIR, ISNA, and the North American Imams Federation deny the interplay between Islamism and terrorism.

Non-Muslims also have a role. Both the U.S. government and mainstream media often give Islamists and their organizations exclusive voice to speak on behalf of American Muslims, which creates a cycle of apparent, if not real, empowerment. Seldom do they turn to non-Islamists and anti-Islamists who may represent far more American Muslims. The recent refusal of PBS to air the ABG Films, Inc. documentary Islam v. Islamists is a prime example of the manner in which media producers and executives shield Islamists from criticism.[38]

Conclusion

The imams and clerics who push for Islamist societies are none other than politicians who cloak themselves in religious jargon. It is naïve to treat these clerics as simple activists or consider their civil rights discourse at face value. Until moderate Muslims challenge their actions, terror networks and their ideologies will flourish. Freedom and liberty are prerequisites to bring an individual close to God through religious practice free from coercion. If some imams fear that individuals will lose faith without coercive direction, then they misunderstand both Islam and liberty.

As lawyers argue the merits of the flying imams' case in a Minneapolis courtroom, a silver lining is apparent: Excessive litigation on their part has eroded support for Islamist organizations such as CAIR, ISNA, and the National American Imams Federation, both nationally and also within the Muslim community.[39] Their loss could be the moderates' and liberals' opportunity to create a new American Muslim narrative.

M. Zuhdi Jasser, a former U.S. Navy lieutenant commander, is chairman of the board of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (www.aifdemocracy.org).


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: airlines; cair; flyingimams; islam; islamists; jasser; korananimals; muslim; usairways; wahhabi
More about the rally in 2004 here

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1124942/posts

1 posted on 12/07/2007 4:44:10 AM PST by nuconvert
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To: Valin; AdmSmith

pong


2 posted on 12/07/2007 4:50:03 AM PST by nuconvert ("Terrorism is not the enemy. It is a means to the ends of militant Islamism." MZJ)
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To: nuconvert

bumb!


3 posted on 12/07/2007 5:06:54 AM PST by Leisler (RNC, RINO National Committee. Always was, always will be.)
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To: nuconvert
You hit this one out of the park, Dr. Jasser!
4 posted on 12/07/2007 5:26:19 AM PST by ishabibble (ALL-AMERICAN INFIDEL)
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To: nuconvert
Zuhdi Jasser has been on Glenn Beck's tv show several times. He is always very well spoken and denounces these types of muslims as people who are hijacking his religion.

I wouldn't be surprised if he has to have personal protection for his family and himself. These nutjob extremists can't be liking what he is saying.

5 posted on 12/07/2007 5:38:52 AM PST by Pablo64 (What is popular is not always right. What is right is not always popular.)
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To: nuconvert
"I'd rather be dead than removed from an airplane in handcuffs."

Too bad the TSA didn't think of that first.

6 posted on 12/07/2007 5:42:13 AM PST by Mr. Brightside
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To: nuconvert

There must be some sort of parallel effort to dumb down people who follow islam (especially in this country...

Where if they believe that when the next attack occurs in this country, that they will not suffer any serious reprisals...

You would think that some, like Mr. Jasser, would rally with him and get these types of imams to change their tune, before everyone suffers...

But as I figure it out...I do not think there is sufficient courage within the rank and file of the followers of islam to make those fundamental changes and condemnations...


7 posted on 12/07/2007 5:44:57 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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To: nuconvert

This is the Minnesota Guys, right? and not the ‘six Muslims who were in the US Army who caused trouble on a plane and were removed.’?? Hard to keep the thug-groups straight, sorry.


8 posted on 12/07/2007 5:53:51 AM PST by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: nuconvert
Perhaps this was the reason why the Prophet Muhammad and his companions sought to avoid creation of the same religious intermediary class that today CAIR, the Islamic Society of North America, and the North American Imams Federation presume to fill.

Still upholding Muhammad as a righteous one. Not buying the good muslim spin. Muslims lie.

9 posted on 12/07/2007 5:54:17 AM PST by existtoexcel
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To: nuconvert

BUMP!


10 posted on 12/07/2007 6:23:41 AM PST by upchuck (Hildabeaste as Prez... unimaginable, devastating misery! She will redefine "How bad can it get?")
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To: bboop

“This is the Minnesota Guys, right?”

Yes


11 posted on 12/07/2007 6:31:02 AM PST by nuconvert ("Terrorism is not the enemy. It is a means to the ends of militant Islamism." MZJ)
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To: nuconvert
There may be moderate muslims, but there is no moderate islam.

The good doctor is a Trojan horse in our midst.

See tagline.

L

12 posted on 12/07/2007 6:32:50 AM PST by Lurker ( Comparing moderate islam to extremist islam is like comparing smallpox to ebola.)
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To: nuconvert
Some of us had CAIR figured out a long time ago.

Cheers,

knewshound
13 posted on 12/07/2007 6:44:34 AM PST by knews_hound (I drive a Hybrid. It burns both gas AND rubber.)
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To: knews_hound

U.S. Airways is adopting the Ann Coulter approach. Get the Muslims to boycott ALL the airlines and we can do away with passenger boarding security altogether.


14 posted on 12/07/2007 6:52:34 AM PST by RoadTest ("It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law. - Psalm 119:26)
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To: stevie_d_64

Jasser may be a “good guy,” in that he wishes for reform and a more spiritual version of Islam, but I have two problems with him.

1) If Jasser is intelligent enough to be able to see through the motives of CAIR, why is he not intelligent enough to see the motives of Muhammed through an historical look at the man?

2) If Jasser says he has known 3 of the Flying Imams for a decade, then why has he waited so long to expose them?

And, in that article, he says Shahin told him that the imams went to CAIR after the plane incident. Frankly, I think they set it up with CAIR prior to the incident.


15 posted on 12/07/2007 7:21:56 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: RoadTest

You have to admit, it IS a good business model....

Cheers,

knewshound


16 posted on 12/07/2007 7:32:33 AM PST by knews_hound (I drive a Hybrid. It burns both gas AND rubber.)
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To: nuconvert

This is a good authoritative overview. Especially in naming the organizations involved. Like other posters I firmly believe the Flying Imams conspired with CAIR in advance of the cafefully-planned incident.

The author did cite that the obvious overreaching bullying by CAIR and the gang has given their victim-status a deathblow in public opinion and caused other muslims-in-america to backpeddle from them. However, as long as the Administration and various elected officials kowtow to them; as long as their Saudi gravy keeps flowing and as long as the lazy MSM keeps going to them for easy quotes they will not be going away.

Like everybody else here, I am sick and tired of this magical, wink-wink, nudge-nudge de facto exemption that mosques and black churches get from the IRS rules that enforce separation of church and state in our country and I would like to see this actually imposed evenhandedly for once.

The author makes clear—in case we did not already know—that there is no Vatican-style hirearchy in Islam and these islamist organizations are doing their best to try and impose one in America. I’m not going to pick and parse ‘ol Peace-be-upon-his-ass’s quotes, just say that there appears to be an opportunity in America for a democratic, secular, non-violent islam to evolve but a little enforcement action on the part of the gummint would be most welcom (i.e. kick out the foreign hate-mongers, crack down on the terrorist money-launderers and chop off the saudi wahabist tentacles).


17 posted on 12/07/2007 8:30:51 AM PST by sinanju
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To: nuconvert

Ping to read later


18 posted on 12/07/2007 9:13:22 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time." - Amos 5:13)
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To: Lurker

At face-value, this seems like a well-written article from a so-called “moderate” Muslim. My suspicions are this: why the Hell did it take so long for him to voice his views and what are the motives for the “Middle Eastern Quarterly” to publish it? Something’s not right...


19 posted on 12/07/2007 10:10:36 AM PST by wazoo1031
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To: Lurker

I really hate that I can read an article like this and be suspicious; I don’t want to be, however the events of the past 6 years (and previous, but esepecially since 9/11) and the deafening silence from the whole Muslim world, save this guy, force me to be.


20 posted on 12/07/2007 10:25:13 AM PST by wazoo1031
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To: nuconvert; Alamo-Girl; metmom; marron; xzins; MHGinTN; YHAOS; TXnMA
Tolerance implies superiority while pluralism implies equality. Recognition that if government enacts the literal laws of God rather than natural or human law, then government becomes God and abrogates religion and the personal nature of the relationship with God.... Freedom and liberty are prerequisites to bring an individual close to God through religious practice free from coercion.

Great post, nuconvert! I'm all for religious pluralism, not just religious tolerance. It's what America is all about, what the First Amendment is all about. I'm encouraged to learn that there are Muslims in America who value the American concept of the separation of church and state. This key tenet of American political order is a good thing to keep in mind, in the run-up to the 2008 election. I thought Romney's speech yesterday was spot-on in articulating this very theme.

21 posted on 12/07/2007 11:11:05 AM PST by betty boop (Simplicity is the highest form of sophistication. -- Leonardo da Vinci)
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To: holdonnow

FYI, Mark....


22 posted on 12/07/2007 11:41:50 AM PST by MaestroLC ("Let him who wants peace prepare for war."--Vegetius, A.D. Fourth Century)
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To: betty boop

good article, thanks for the ping.


23 posted on 12/07/2007 12:06:20 PM PST by marron
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To: Lurker
Has been said that a moderate muslem is one that doesn’t prefer to follow the more radical elements of the koran and is therefore not considered to be a “good” moslem.

However, on the other side of that s the “good” moslem who believes the radical and entire counsel of the koran...he is what we would call the radical/violent moslem.

The key seems to be how much of the koran a follower of mohammed (pork be upon him) chooses to believe and practice.

Whatever the case and in light of their definition of a "good" moslem, even the moderate (not “goo”) moslem is only a few verses away from jihad. Even not-good/moderate moslems are suspect, especially in light of the koran's explicit instructions to hide the true nature of their beliefs to deceive the infidel!

24 posted on 12/07/2007 12:38:28 PM PST by woollyone (entropy extirpates evolution and conservation confirms the Creator blessed forever.)
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To: wazoo1031
I really hate that I can read an article like this and be suspicious

Your suspicions are well founded. For 1200 years this 'religion' has sought to convert or enslave everyone it's touched.

These so-called 'moderates' are nothing more than a Trojan Horse for the 'radicals'.

Remember, a radical muslim will kill you. A 'moderate' will stand by and watch it happen.

L

25 posted on 12/07/2007 2:54:40 PM PST by Lurker ( Comparing moderate islam to extremist islam is like comparing smallpox to ebola.)
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To: woollyone
Has been said that a moderate muslem is one that doesn’t prefer to follow the more radical elements of the koran and is therefore not considered to be a “good” moslem.

This is spot on. As I said above, there may be moderate muslims. But there is no such thing as moderate islam.

It's not a religion. It's an odious political philosophy ever bit as dangerous as Nazism or Communism. We ignore that fact at our peril.

L

26 posted on 12/07/2007 2:56:23 PM PST by Lurker ( Comparing moderate islam to extremist islam is like comparing smallpox to ebola.)
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To: nuconvert; sageb1; alexsmithers; beaversmom; b4its2late; BigTom85; BikerJoe; Brad's Gramma; ...

Flying Imams and more.

Good read by a Muslim who gets it. Thanks to Sageb1 for the heads up.

“Countering Islamism and combating Islamist terrorism should be a greater public responsibility for the organized American Muslim community than the obsession with civil rights and victimization in which current Islamist organizations engage. Americans living in fear for their security are looking to moderate, traditional Muslims to lead this fight. The credibility of the Muslim community suffers because groups such as CAIR, ISNA, and the North American Imams Federation deny the interplay between Islamism and terrorism.”


27 posted on 12/07/2007 3:28:31 PM PST by dynachrome (Immigration without assimilation means the death of this nation~Captainpaintball)
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To: wazoo1031; existtoexcel

“My suspicions are this: why the Hell did it take so long for him to voice his views and what are the motives for the “Middle Eastern Quarterly” to publish it?”

Do a little homework on MEForum and Dr Jasser

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Middle East Quarterly (MEQ) is a quarterly journal devoted to subjects relating to the Middle East. A publication of the American pro-Israel neoconservative think tank Middle East Forum (MEF) founded by Daniel Pipes, the journal was launched in 1994. Edited by Michael Rubin, it is published in print, and all but the current issue are also available as full texts from the website of the Middle East Forum, which does, however, provide links to full texts of some selected current articles as “MEF’s latest releases”.

Dr Jasser served in the Navy and then went to medical school and is now practicing in Arizona, where he just finished serving as President of the Arizona Medical Assoc. He’s still young and a busy guy.
His articles have been posted here on FR for several years, (you can keyword Jasser to find them) and have appeared in the Washington Times, and many other news sources and he has appeared a number of times on TV (FOXNews, Glen Beck), and radio, and also appeared in Frank Gaffney’s documentary, “Islam versus Islamists: Voices from the Muslim Center,” aside from speaking engagements.

He was given an award about 5 wks ago by the Center for Security Policy

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1929643/posts

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/home.aspx?sid=62&categoryid=63&newsid=15551

I’ll leave the rest of the research up to you


28 posted on 12/07/2007 6:17:09 PM PST by nuconvert ("Terrorism is not the enemy. It is a means to the ends of militant Islamism." MZJ)
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To: sageb1

“2) If Jasser says he has known 3 of the Flying Imams for a decade, then why has he waited so long to expose them?”

The article says that he’s been exposing them for years.
Check keyword ‘Jasser’ in FR’s search for more. He’s had an ongoing public and private battle in Arizona against the Wahhabi/CAIR types there.

“If Jasser is intelligent enough to be able to see through the motives of CAIR, why is he not intelligent enough to see the motives of Muhammed through an historical look at the man?”

I’m taking a wild guess that he’s studied islam more than you have. He’s come to his own decisions based on his faith, and recognizes a need for Islam to go through a revisionist period. He’s spoken on this a number of times, including this article.


29 posted on 12/07/2007 6:26:35 PM PST by nuconvert ("Terrorism is not the enemy. It is a means to the ends of militant Islamism." MZJ)
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To: nuconvert

Thank you, I welcome that! Just don’t tell me what to do...I’m busy working on my MA in Classical Archaeology in England; I’m an American Christian who had planes flown into my buildings on 9/11 so I’m a little sensitive, as I’ve lived in Manhattan and had drinks on the top at Windows on the World. On September 11, 2001, I was living in New Orleans getting my degree and happened to be working part-time at Touro Synagogue doing admin work when all this shit came down on our American world. Back off..


30 posted on 12/07/2007 6:55:18 PM PST by wazoo1031
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To: nuconvert; Allegra

You obviously have not read my previous post, either...unfortunately you are proving to be true. Why are you attacking me?


31 posted on 12/07/2007 6:59:59 PM PST by wazoo1031
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To: Leisler

“Our Buildings”, I meant “Our Buildings” I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong by moderate Muslims, where is their voice?!


32 posted on 12/07/2007 7:07:49 PM PST by wazoo1031
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To: wazoo1031

“Just don’t tell me what to do...”

Ever think maybe it was the “why the hell” part of your post that may have resulted in not getting a real friendly opener?
Back off yourself.


33 posted on 12/07/2007 7:45:15 PM PST by nuconvert ("Terrorism is not the enemy. It is a means to the ends of militant Islamism." MZJ)
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To: nuconvert

Ok Rosie, go back to your leftist site now...in case you don’t recognize it, MoveOn.org, that’s just for you...


34 posted on 12/07/2007 11:18:53 PM PST by wazoo1031
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To: nuconvert

I’ve been reading him for a couple of years now. I’m not saying that he’s not a good guy . He is. But I do think there are ways he could have gotten his message out to the mainstream. If I mentioned Middle East Forum to most people, they would be clueless. The problem is that President Bush relied on various members of CAIR and other similar organizations to set policy, as did Clinton before him. That reliance on the wrong individuals may be changing somewhat. I hope so.

How long, do you think, has Jasser truly considered reform in Islam? I could probably go back through some of his stuff and figure it out, but maybe you have that information close at hand? I remember reading something a couple of years ago that defended Islam, but didn’t really espouse making changes in it.


35 posted on 12/08/2007 7:19:01 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: sageb1

“But I do think there are ways he could have gotten his message out to the mainstream.”

So, you’re faulting him for not doing enough to get his message out sooner and not being able get the MSM to publish him earlier?
He was in the Navy, he got out and went to medical school, he moved to Arizona, got married, had a family, opened a medical practice and then after 911 when everyone finally woke up, somehow managed to find time in between seeing patients, to start writing about the dangers of islamism and begin his campaign in earnest by starting his website and gaining attention from conservative pundits & news outlets. Not easy to do with bias and mistrust from the Right.

I think he’s done a heck of a job. I don’t know about you, but I couldn’t manage a full time medical practice, young family, and travel across the country attending meetings & giving speeches and interviews and write regular articles.
I don’t know where he finds the time or energy. But he is a bit younger than me, so I guess that helps.


36 posted on 12/08/2007 7:45:03 AM PST by nuconvert ("Terrorism is not the enemy. It is a means to the ends of militant Islamism." MZJ)
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To: nuconvert
I guess what I'm trying to ascertain is did he consider reform before the right was knowledgeable enough about Islam to demand it?

Or did he think that defending Islam and trying to convince us that it had been "hijacked" (I hate that term) would be enough?

In other words, did any of the demands of the right play into his thoughts about reform?

I feel like I just said the same thing 3 different ways, but I've always thought that the discussion had to include demands for change, whereas there were many who thought that appeasement through acceptance of whatever Muslims said to be true was the only necessary avenue.

37 posted on 12/08/2007 9:24:28 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: sageb1

“I guess what I’m trying to ascertain is did he consider reform before the right was knowledgeable enough about Islam to demand it? “

Personally, I don’t see the Right “demanding it”. And Dr. Jasser is a member of the Right himself.

Who cares how many yrs ago he started writing about reform? If he’s thought this way for 20 yrs, but didn’t write about it, are you then going to fault him for not having the time to write or being able to get the MSM to publish his writings? And what if he came to this conclusion a fews yrs ago? Who cares as long as he’s out there speaking about it now?

“I’ve always thought that the discussion had to include demands for change, whereas there were many who thought that appeasement through acceptance of whatever Muslims said to be true was the only necessary avenue.”

Dr Jasser has never been in favor of “appeasement through acceptance of whatever Muslims said to be true was the only necessary avenue.”
Maybe that’s your problem with him. You still don’t really understand or trust him, no matter how many times you say just the opposite. Because he is muslim.

This article includes his discovery of what was and is being taught in some of the mosques. He’s had numerous run-ins with CAIR types which have included threats, needless to say.
Does he think that radicals/fanatics within his religion are trying to influence the majority? Yes. That’s a fact. Is he trying to make a ‘call to arms’ to the majority with the intention that they realize that changes within their religion need to be made. Yes.

We need a lot more Dr Jasser’s. And we need a lot more people who aren’t muslims, supporting him.


38 posted on 12/08/2007 10:07:07 AM PST by nuconvert ("Terrorism is not the enemy. It is a means to the ends of militant Islamism." MZJ)
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To: nuconvert

What I don’t trust is those in our administration and state department who have shown naivete in choosing groups and individuals to work with.

When what we hear is that non-Muslims have to prove their good intentions to Muslims, that does not exactly create goodwill. I don’t think that is true and yes, I do believe it is the other way around. Is it really so difficult to understand why the majority of non-Muslim Americans do not want to hear call to prayer when that sound brings an immediate vision of the nightmare of 911? Is it so difficult to understand that when encouraged to learn about Islam, we did, and we now understand it to be contrary to Western values, specifically in the area of religious freedom where such freedom is an ambiguity in Islam? I did not undertake a study of Islam because of 911. My study began because I distrusted U.N.-enamored theosophists, many of whom are Sufis. It is a fact that the U.N. has anti-Christian anti-Western interests.

Mr. Jasser has his hands full certainly, but perhaps his most important contribution can be in the area of creating a new desire to assimilate. Organizations such as CAIR are doing exactly the opposite.

My religion is a way of life, too. But it does not require behaviors that are at odds with the melting pot that is America, a country formed on the basis of Judeo-Christian principles. Nor is at odds with our most precious documents. The Qur’an, however, does conflict with those documents. The Qur’an is a supremacist, separatist, bigoted work that lends itself too easily to the promotion of violent acts.

It is unbelievable and unacceptable to me that it is allowed to be used in its current form in this country (or anywhere) as an instructional guide for children without some sort of monitoring.

There is no single individual in all of history who has been the subject of as much scrutiny as Jesus, and his message rings so true, that whether one is a Christian or not, one cannot discount its goodness. I doubt that the life and legacy of Muhammad will be able to withstand that amount of scrutiny.

Recently, Mormonism has become an issue. Joseph Smith fancied himself to be the second coming of Muhammad. Perhaps that is one reason the LDS remains so secretive. I have very distant cousins who followed Smith. One was actually a polygamist who was appointed to the High Council by Smith himself. Smith’s story is similar to Muhammad’s. Thankfully, they remain a fairly small sect, although with those whose belief in polygamy kept them “underground,” we have seen criminal behavior by the likes of Warren Jeffs and others.

I also believe that groups such as the NAACP have outlived their original purpose and create division and separatism. La Raza does the same. So my concern does not just lie with religion, but with the growing political power of all such groups that are more engaged in promoting their own interests, rather than the interests of America.

“Is he trying to make a ‘call to arms’ to the majority with the intention that they realize that changes within their religion need to be made. Yes.”

I agree that is a good development.

“We need a lot more Dr Jasser’s. And we need a lot more people who aren’t muslims, supporting him.”

I do support him, however I will continue to remain skeptical until reform is deemed necessary by the majority of Muslims and until I can see positive results from such reform.

What you are unaware of is that I have actually encouraged many others to read Jasser, to visit his website, and that I’ve promoted his ideas as a first step in reform, but you are correct in your assessment of my distaste for Islam in general.


39 posted on 12/08/2007 5:06:49 PM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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