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Flat Chance (Fred and Huck's Tax Plans)
The Wall Street Journal ^ | December 10, 2007 | Paul Gigot

Posted on 12/10/2007 8:09:06 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet

Gigot: Well, Fred Thompson has his flat tax, and Mike Huckabee has his fair tax. But who's got the better idea, and what are the other GOP presidential hopefuls proposing? Here with a closer look at the candidates' tax plans, Wall Street Journal columnist and deputy editor Dan Henninger, assistant editor James Freeman, Washington columnist Kim Strassel and senior economics writer Steve Moore.

So, Steve, Fred Thompson has embraced this so-called voluntary flat tax plan. You like it, I kind of like it. Tell our viewers why.

Moore: Well, the flat tax is happening all over the world. There are now 20 countries that have flat taxes. The United States is not yet one of them. Fred Thompson says let's have a flat tax; let's overcome the political opposition to this, all of the special interest groups that try to protect their deductions and carve-outs, by essentially telling the American people, You can have this voluntary flat tax. If you want to stay in the old system and keep all your deductions, you can do that. If you want a simple plan with a postcard return, you opt into that. Paul, I think if the people had that option, the vast majority of Americans would take the flat tax.

Gigot: And under the Thompson proposal, there would be two income tax rates, 10% and 25% rate, and, what, a $39,000 family allowance for a family of four, and that would vary depending on whether you were single or how many children you had. And the 25% rate kicks in at $100,000 of income. Is that right?

Moore: For a couple, that's right.(continued)

(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government; Politics/Elections; US: Arkansas; US: Tennessee
KEYWORDS: 2008; conservatism; conservatives; consumptiontax; economics; electionpresident; elections; fairtax; flattax; fredthompson; gop; internalrevenue; jimdemint; mikehuckabee; republicans; steveforbes; taxes
Fred can win if all REAL conservatives get behind him. Wouldn't you love to fill out a postcard for taxes every year? I know I would.
1 posted on 12/10/2007 8:09:07 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I wish that Fred was a conservative. The misinformation on the Fair Tax is flying thick and fast.

Unfortunately Huckabee loves taxes and larger government.

Ron Paul is not being taken seriously by many and he is not perfect, but he is better than most. Since many of the potential voters were born after 1977 they view the government as a normal. They have no idea where we came from and what makes this country truly great.

2 posted on 12/10/2007 8:20:34 PM PST by longun45 (There is no difference between a republocrat and a demican, time to kick them both out.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

25% for over $100K and still have to pay property taxes, state taxes, etc.? No deductions? This doesn’t make much sense for the average business owner...


3 posted on 12/10/2007 8:20:48 PM PST by Aggie Mama
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To: Aggie Mama
"25% for over $100K and still have to pay property taxes, state taxes, etc.? No deductions? This doesn’t make much sense for the average business owner..."

Under Fred Thompson's plan, you could opt to stick with the current tax plan or go onto the flat tax.

4 posted on 12/10/2007 8:25:40 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet (Your "dirt" on Fred is about as persuasive as a Nancy Pelosi Veteran's Day Speech)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I call this an optional “flatter” tax rather than an optional flat tax, in that Fred has more than one tax rate. Still it’s a major step in the right direction. I prefer the single rate 17% that Forbes ran on 8 years ago and that Dick Armey and Phil Gramm had previously pushed. Adding the option of sticking with the old system is likely the key to getting a flat tax through politically. Fred’s not the first to come up with it, but kudos to him for recognizing a good thing. I don’t know if Rudy has anything specific out for a tax plan, but he’s got Forbes on his team so must be pushed in this direction. I suspect he’d go for something along Fred’s lines.
5 posted on 12/10/2007 8:32:10 PM PST by JohnBovenmyer
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Under Fred Thompson's plan, you could opt to stick with the current tax plan or go onto the flat tax

That's nothing. My guy wants to eliminate the IRS. Completely.

I'll stick with the real federalist who's whooping Fred's butt in fundraising and grassroots support, thanks.

6 posted on 12/10/2007 8:34:26 PM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This is an additional layer of complexity to the tax code if it keeps the previous and adds to it. The flat rates are on top of sales, property, state taxes, etc.


7 posted on 12/10/2007 8:37:23 PM PST by kinoxi
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
"That's nothing. My guy wants to eliminate the IRS. Completely."

There's a big, brown cloud in the city, And the countryside's a sin. An' the price of life is too high to give up, Gotta come down again. When the world wide war is over and done, And the dream of peace comes true. We'll all be drinkin' free bubble-ubb, Eatin' that rainbow stew. When they find out how to burn water, And the gasoline car is gone. When an airplane flies without any fuel, And the satellite heats our home. One of these days when the air clears up, And the sun comes shinin' through. We'll all be drinkin' free bubble-ubb, An' eatin' that rainbow stew. Eatin' rainbow stew in a silver spoon, Underneath that sky of blue. All be drinkin' free bubble-ubb, An' eatin' that rainbow stew. You don't have to get high to get happy, Just think about what's in store. When people start doin' what they oughta be doin', Then they won't be booin' no more. When a President goes through the White House door, An' does what he says he'll do. We'll all be drinkin' free bubble-ubb, Eatin' that rainbow stew. Eatin' rainbow stew in a silver spoon, Underneath that sky of blue. We'll all be drinkin' that free bubble-ubb, Eatin' some rainbow stew. Eatin' rainbow stew in a silver spoon, Underneath that sky of blue. All be drinkin' that free bubble-ubb, Eatin' rainbow stew. ------------------------------------------------ On a summer day in the month of May a burly bum came hiking Down a shady lane through the sugar cane, he was looking for his liking. As he roamed along he sang a song of the land of milk and honey Where a bum can stay for many a day, and he won't need any money Oh the buzzin' of the bees in the cigarette trees near the soda water fountain, At the lemonade springs where the bluebird sings on the Big Rock Candy Mountains There's a lake of gin we can both jump in, and the handouts grow on bushes In the new-mown hay we can sleep all day, and the bars all have free lunches Where the mail train stops and there ain't no cops, and the folks are tender-hearted Where you never change your socks and you never throw rocks, And your hair is never parted Oh the buzzin' of the bees in the cigarette trees near the soda water fountain, At the lemonade springs where the bluebird sings on the Big Rock Candy Mountains Oh, a farmer and his son, they were on the run, to the hay field they were bounding Said the bum to the son, "Why don't you come to the big rock candy mountains?" So the very next day they hiked away, the mileposts they were counting But they never arrived at the lemonade tide, on the Big Rock Candy Mountains Oh the buzzin' of the bees in the cigarette trees near the soda water fountain, At the lemonade springs where the bluebird sings on the Big Rock Candy Mountains One evening as the sun went down and the jungle fires were burning, Down the track came a hobo hiking, and he said "Boys, I'm not turning." "I'm heading for a land that's far away beside the crystal fountains;" "So come with me, we'll go and see the Big Rock Candy Mountains." In the Big Rock Candy Mountains, there's a land that's fair and bright, The handouts grow on bushes and you sleep out every night Where the boxcars all are empty and the sun shines every day On the birds and the bees and the cigarete trees, The lemonade springs where the bluebird sings In the Big Rock Candy Mountains In the Big Rock Candy Mountains, all the cops have wooden legs And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth and the hens lay soft-boiled eggs The farmer's trees are full of fruit and the barns are full of hay Oh I'm bound to go where there ain't no snow Where the rain don't fall, the wind don't blow In the Big Rock Candy Mountains In the Big Rock Candy Mountains, you never change your socks And little streams of alcohol come a-trickling down the rocks The brakemen have to tip their hats and the railroad bulls are blind There's a lake of stew and of whiskey too And you can paddle all around 'em in a big canoe In the Big Rock Candy Mountains In the Big Rock Candy Mountains the jails are made of tin, And you can walk right out again as soon as you are in There ain't no short-handled shovels, no axes, saws or picks, I'm a-goin' to stay where you sleep all day Where they hung the jerk that invented work In the Big Rock Candy Mountains I'll see you all this comin' fall in the Big Rock Candy Mountains!

8 posted on 12/10/2007 8:41:22 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet (Your "dirt" on Fred is about as persuasive as a Nancy Pelosi Veteran's Day Speech)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Oooo-kay. The Jim Beam kicked in or what?


9 posted on 12/10/2007 8:42:42 PM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: longun45

“I wish that Fred was a conservative.”
Your wish is granted - he is.

“Unfortunately Huckabee loves taxes and larger government.”

Yes, he does.

http://taxhikemike.org/


10 posted on 12/10/2007 8:42:51 PM PST by WOSG (Pro-life, pro-family, pro-freedom, pro-strong defense, pro-GWOT, pro-capitalism)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I LOVE THAT SONG!

Huckster, the Harriet Miers candidate, has a theme song!


11 posted on 12/10/2007 8:43:52 PM PST by WOSG (Pro-life, pro-family, pro-freedom, pro-strong defense, pro-GWOT, pro-capitalism)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

no one’s going to enjoy paying a 30% tax on a new car.


12 posted on 12/10/2007 8:46:37 PM PST by ken21 ( people die + you never hear from them again.)
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To: ken21
"no one’s going to enjoy paying a 30% tax on a new car."

That's Mike Huckabee's plan, not Fred's. A large sales tax would drive much commerce underground (aka the "black market") IMO.

13 posted on 12/10/2007 8:49:36 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet (Your "dirt" on Fred is about as persuasive as a Nancy Pelosi Veteran's Day Speech)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The best way to promote any of these tax plans that go outside the status quo. Find a country that was similar to ours under their old plan, who implemented a flat or fair tax, and show the benefits it brought to the majority of the people of that country.


14 posted on 12/10/2007 8:56:49 PM PST by HisKingdomWillAbolishSinDeath (Christ's Kingdom on Earth is the answer. What is your question?)
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To: longun45
I wish that Fred was a conservative.

Well, let me give you a clue, He is a conservative. Now, I wonder about you having made a statement like that.

Check his web-site and check his voting record if you don't believe me!
15 posted on 12/10/2007 9:02:55 PM PST by SoConPubbie
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

16 posted on 12/10/2007 9:12:01 PM PST by fieldmarshaldj (~~~Jihad Fever -- Catch It !~~~ (Backup tag: "Live Fred or Die"))
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To: ken21
"no one’s going to enjoy paying a 30% tax on a new car."

You're paying more than that now, much more, in the form of hidden taxes that will be eliminated under the Fair Tax. And, unlike those hidden taxes, you'll know exactly what you're paying.
17 posted on 12/10/2007 9:55:18 PM PST by RightOnTheLeftCoast ([Fred Thompson/Clarence Thomas 2008!])
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
I'll stick with the real federalist who's whooping Fred's butt in fundraising and grassroots support, thanks

You're not calling Huckabee a federalist are you?

18 posted on 12/11/2007 3:56:17 AM PST by John Valentine
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Oh, yeah.... I get it now.

You’re waiting for Ron Paul to ladle you out your serving of rainbow stew!


19 posted on 12/11/2007 4:00:04 AM PST by John Valentine
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To: longun45
Ron Paul is not being taken seriously by many...

This is his own doing. He marginalized himself right quick.

20 posted on 12/11/2007 4:03:12 AM PST by sauropod (Welcome to O'Malleyland. What's in your wallet?)
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To: HisKingdomWillAbolishSinDeath

The best way to promote any of these tax plans that go outside the status quo. Find a country that was similar to ours under their old plan, who implemented a flat or fair tax, and show the benefits it brought to the majority of the people of that country.

I thought FR did not get involved in what other countries do. This is tragic that we are looking at other countries to fix our problems. This is so Democratic that I can’t believe that Fred or anyone else is discussing it. I guess next we will welcome socialized medicine because the rest of the world has it. Wake up!!!


21 posted on 12/11/2007 4:19:15 AM PST by napscoordinator
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Another thread about Huckabee and the Fair Tax it seems. The Huckster has had no past talk or even attempt to try this in Arkansas. While in the Natural state he raised many taxes, and is even on video that he will take any new tax.

Now he is on the national stage, and throws little quips out “I want to put the IRS out of business” at debates and some gullible people actually believe for one he would do it, and another that Democrats like Rangel and entrenched Republicans will let him do it.

Huckabee’s history show no fiscal hawk, why believe him now?

22 posted on 12/11/2007 4:21:27 AM PST by Sybeck1 (Join me for the Million Minutemen March --- Summer 2008!!)
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To: longun45

If Fred ain’t a conservative, I don’t know who is.


23 posted on 12/11/2007 6:47:19 AM PST by RockinRight (Bill Clinton + Jimmuh Carter + Pat Robertson + Barack Obama + Gomer Pyle = Mike Huckabee)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

That’s one area Ron Paul is great in.

Too bad he’s dead wrong on so many others.


24 posted on 12/11/2007 6:48:09 AM PST by RockinRight (Bill Clinton + Jimmuh Carter + Pat Robertson + Barack Obama + Gomer Pyle = Mike Huckabee)
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To: RockinRight

Agreed.

These spammers are pathetic.


25 posted on 12/11/2007 8:38:00 AM PST by TheThirdRuffian
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To: JohnBovenmyer; 2ndDivisionVet

Well, it lacks the other aspect of what I would call a “Flat Tax”, in that it still excludes huge chunks of income with its standard deduction.

The result is that a family of four can earn $49K and contribute NOTHING to the running of the government that protects their freedoms. They can even vote for government giveaway programs to their hearts’ content, secure in the knowledge it won’t cost them a dime.

If I were Fred, I’d be honest with the American people and say, “Every American should be willing to pay some taxes to support the government that provides so much to ensure their safety, security, and freedoms. To that end, I propose eliminating all deductions and using a three-bracket income tax with very low tax rates. Those rates would be as follows:
(1) 5% on income up to the poverty level,
(2) 10% on income between poverty level and median income,
(3) 15% on all income above the median
Zero corporate income tax, all capital investment expensed in the year spent, with all net corporate income imputed to the shareholders”

Contrary to what Dems believe, the problem with tax revenues is not that a relatively few taxpayers with high incomes aren’t paying enough. The problem is that there are huge numbers of taxpayers at the low end that pay nothing, but vote for more government spending.


26 posted on 12/11/2007 10:51:17 AM PST by Kellis91789 (Liberals aren't atheists. They worship government -- including human sacrifices.)
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To: longun45
The misinformation on the Fair Tax is flying thick and fast.

I agree. It's not nearly as impressive as some make it out to be. Unless the Sixteenth amendment is repealed first, I cannot support a new tax system.

27 posted on 12/11/2007 10:58:42 AM PST by HoustonTech
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
My guy wants to eliminate the IRS. Completely

Not good enough. Unless he eliminates the sixteenth amendment (which would be next to impossible), there is no law that would prevent the congress from inacting an income tax.

As long as the sixteenth amendment is the law of the land, it's better to reform the income tax than to keep the status quo and invent a new tax.

28 posted on 12/11/2007 11:02:16 AM PST by HoustonTech
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To: Kellis91789
The result is that a family of four can earn $49K and contribute NOTHING to the running of the government that protects their freedoms.

A family of four living on $49K per year is probably spending every dime, after SS and Medicare taxes, on the necessities. If you believe that consumers pay all taxes, then they are paying their fair share.

29 posted on 12/15/2007 7:20:06 PM PST by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom

The problem is that any embedded taxes they pay are invisible to them and do not affect their voting habits. As long as they don’t see their visible taxes like income tax going up, they’ll vote for more government give-away programs.

If everyone had to pay a flat 10% (no deductions) to pay for government general fund spending, and some new welfare program was proposed that would require everybody’s tax rate to go up to 12%, then the vote would likely be “NO”. If half the people have all of their income exempted, then they’ll vote “YES” because the tax rate doesn’t matter to them anymore. The tax rate could be 90% on income above the standard deuction, and that family earning $49K won’t care because they aren’t affected.


30 posted on 12/16/2007 5:32:17 PM PST by Kellis91789 (Liberals aren't atheists. They worship government -- including human sacrifices.)
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To: Kellis91789
If everyone had to pay a flat 10% (no deductions) to pay for government general fund spending, and some new welfare program was proposed that would require everybody’s tax rate to go up to 12%, then the vote would likely be “NO”.

The more income disparity increases, the less likely that is to happen as long as those with low incomes vote.

31 posted on 12/17/2007 8:13:37 AM PST by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom

“The more income disparity increases, the less likely that is to happen as long as those with low incomes vote.”

What is inherently wrong with income disparity ? Everyone has different talents. Why shouldn’t you expect different results ? If wealth is being acquired illegaly, then the solution is to enforce the law, not to redistribute wealth. Redistribution will take from those that did nothing wrong as well as those that did.

The family earning $49K likely wouldn’t qualify for any sort of welfare benefits, so the jump from 10% to 12% would get a “NO” vote from them.

Those actually eligible for a welfare program would amount to less than 15% of the voters, so there will not be enough of them to vote to take money from the majority.

I am concerned about the growing number of middle-class voters that end up with no income tax bill and become apathetic about containing government waste and nanny state spending.


32 posted on 12/17/2007 2:39:19 PM PST by Kellis91789 (Liberals aren't atheists. They worship government -- including human sacrifices.)
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To: Kellis91789
I am concerned about the growing number of middle-class voters that end up with no income tax bill...

I am also concerned about the growing number of people who participate in the economy and yet fall below taxable limits - I'm just not sure that figuring out a way to make them pay income taxes is the answer.

33 posted on 12/17/2007 6:19:00 PM PST by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom

What would you suggest ? You can’t disenfranchise them and stop them from voting for wasteful government. Besides making them pay taxes, what other disincentives to such voting would you recommend ?


34 posted on 12/18/2007 11:22:56 AM PST by Kellis91789 (Liberals aren't atheists. They worship government -- including human sacrifices.)
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