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Senate drops timber payments from energy bill ( rural school funding )
The Associated Press ^ | December 14, 2007

Posted on 12/15/2007 10:37:06 AM PST by george76

The Senate removed a provision from the energy bill that would have extended for four years payments to rural counties that once depended on federal timber money to pay for schools and libraries.

A House bill approved last week would set aside more than $1.5 billion to compensate 700 rural counties in 39 states -- mostly in the South and West -- that were hurt by federal logging cutbacks in the 1990s. An additional $350 million would have gone to rural states through a program that reimburses state and local governments for federally owned property.

The timber plan had support from lawmakers in both parties, but was dropped in final negotiations Thursday as Senate Democrats ...

The Senate fell one shy of the 60 votes needed to bring the bill to a vote. Republican Sens. Gordon Smith of Oregon, Orrin Hatch of Utah and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska joined all Western Democrats in supporting the call for a vote.

All other western Republicans opposed it.

"Congress had a golden opportunity to do what's right for rural America, but they chose to turn their backs on our Main Streets,'' said Sen. Max Baucus...

"A minority of senators on the other side of the aisle are denying rural counties their lifeline,'' Kardon said. "In this case 40 senators supported President Bush in stiff-arming rural counties.''

"Without an extension of this successful program, schools will begin to lay off teachers and librarians..."

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Government; US: Alaska; US: Idaho; US: Montana; US: Oregon; US: Utah; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: 110th; energy; federalspending; pilt; rural; ruralschools; schoolfunding; schools; taxes; timber
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Another attempted hit against small, working, rural communities...

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1 posted on 12/15/2007 10:37:07 AM PST by george76
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To: jazusamo; Carry_Okie; forester; tubebender; LucyT; Salvation; CT; Missus; Troublemaker

Greg Walden, R-Ore., blamed Senate Democrats, calling the removal of the timber payments “one more in a long list of failures by the leadership of this Congress to get its work done and solve the problems real people are facing every day in our country.’’


2 posted on 12/15/2007 10:39:38 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

On the bright side there’s still money for the Department of Education, PBS and NPR.


3 posted on 12/15/2007 10:41:11 AM PST by DoughtyOne (California, where the death penalty is reserved for wholesome values. SB 777)
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To: sionnsar; Salvation; HardStarboard; marsh2; editor-surveyor; girlangler; SunkenCiv

Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., who led House efforts to secure the timber payments, called the Senate action devastating news for rural counties that depend on federal funding for services such as schools and law enforcement.


4 posted on 12/15/2007 10:43:38 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

Washington might justify this kind of funding, but Washington should be out of the education/school business altogether.


5 posted on 12/15/2007 10:43:44 AM PST by RightWhale (anti-razors are pro-life)
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To: metmom; BOBTHENAILER; don-o; Born Conservative; ExSoldier; CrappieLuck; USNBandit; Calpernia

Without an extension of this successful program, schools will begin to lay off teachers and librarians...


6 posted on 12/15/2007 10:46:49 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
Another attempted hit against small, working, rural communities...

Yup. Whether dims like it or not, small communities have small timber owners AND large ones which employ a ton of people (as does my company).

My home town was decimated by the effects of the spotted owl. As one envirinmentalist said - "there are pleanty of jobs in tourism".

But heavan help if there is a man hole cover loose in some Eastern city......

7 posted on 12/15/2007 10:48:00 AM PST by llevrok (Born a ham and never cured.)
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To: george76
That is going to kill our county.

Those timber sales is what pays for our county road crews.

They are a great crew too.

They are out at 3-4am prepping the roads when the black ice and snow hits.

And keep the roads clear when boulders/trees/mudslides which are typical here on the Coast Range roads.

Lastly keeping the roads in good shape overall free of potholes and deterioration.

8 posted on 12/15/2007 10:48:51 AM PST by Global2010 ( I yell Go Hunter and my Lab runs to the door. Dang.)
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To: RightWhale; Jeff Head; Myrddin; AuntB; Unrepentant VN Vet; SierraWasp

Washington should let the rural communities log trees, mine for minerals, fish and hunt ...

By ‘vacating’ allotments, the beaurocrazies have closed many small businesses and rural communities.


9 posted on 12/15/2007 10:51:24 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
By ‘vacating’ allotments, the beaurocrazies have closed many small businesses and rural communities.

Way too much planning. Every time they plan something something else results and they have to plan even more.

10 posted on 12/15/2007 10:53:22 AM PST by RightWhale (anti-razors are pro-life)
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To: george76

Yeah and then the teachers left get double duty.

We have a family freind who started out working exclusively in Spec. Ed preparing all the IEP’s now our friend is doing that full time job and mandated to teach at a school with severly troubled youths.

Many who taught when my son was a student have left and they tell me all the same thing.

We love our kids we hate the adminastrators who have come in.

We use to have an Alumni BBQ every year for our kids who are severly disabled and have or currently attend school in our district.

None of us show up now that the PC Libs have moved in and screwed up the great educational system we had.

We cannot even do a pot luck all food has to be store bought/prepared.

A father who is now a retired police officer use to make some home made kick butt Pork and Beans and I don’t even like pork and beans well that is no longer allowed.

All the good teachers who have retired don’t show up and the last Alumni we attended 5years ago was all progressive libs and they even have tried refusing using district busses to get the kids from class to the event...mind you these are wheelchair bound kids who need a WC lift bus to get there.

The idea was to ruin and stop our Alumni BBQ.


11 posted on 12/15/2007 11:02:12 AM PST by Global2010 ( I yell Go Hunter and my Lab runs to the door. Dang.)
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To: RightWhale
Way too much planning. Every time they plan something something else results and they have to plan even more.

Yep. Same problem the Soviets had with their centralized planning and 5 year plans.

Hmmm, if we have the same solutions and problems as the old Soviets, what does that make us?

12 posted on 12/15/2007 11:03:55 AM PST by seowulf
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To: george76

Our county received $9 million a year in Secure Schools payments. This amount was based on a formula of the average 25% of the profit from timber receipts we used to get off our National Forests when they were logged. This was used exclusively for schools and roads. Before they gave us a one year extension last year, we were looking at being unable to plow snow off raods in the winter and maintain the roads in general. Now, post Northwest Forest Plan (spotted owl) and with non-paying Stewardship Contracts, the default to timber receipts will average about $250,000.

They also removed the full PILT payments. This is the In-Lieu of Taxes payments that the federal government pays to the County and states for its federal lands. It is based on a small percentage of the frozen value of the land when withdrawn - in our case 1904. Not only is it pennies on the dollar, it has not been fully funded in years.

In our County, 65% of the land base is in federal lands. That leaves us without the tax base to adequately fund basic services and restricts our land-locked communities from physical and population growth.

Remember the Appalachian area in the 1950s with its poverty? - That is what our federal government is re-creating in its policy on Western rural lands.


13 posted on 12/15/2007 11:09:48 AM PST by marsh2
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To: george76

The ugly results of the enviro freaks of many years ago using the spotted owl to start the slow death of the timber industry in the Northwest are all too apparent and the moonbat libs supported them all the way, it’s criminal!


14 posted on 12/15/2007 11:13:18 AM PST by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: george76

Hey did you ever catch that Documentary about Philomoth Oregon.

The Timber Families who funded scholarships for college wanted to pull those funds when the enviro whacks came in to the schools and started teaching anti logging ect.

Very good example to what has happen to the very rural areas here in Oregon.


15 posted on 12/15/2007 11:13:31 AM PST by Global2010 ( I yell Go Hunter and my Lab runs to the door. Dang.)
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.


16 posted on 12/15/2007 12:03:34 PM PST by EggsAckley
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To: george76

Iffen they hadn’t prevented the timber harvest there wouldn’t be any problem at all, now would there?

I’m from the Government, and I’m here to help you.........


17 posted on 12/15/2007 12:12:01 PM PST by Flintlock
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To: marsh2

The eco nuts love to see small rural communities fail.

This is just another way to attack working families.


18 posted on 12/15/2007 1:52:35 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Global2010

The eco nuts are against commercial fishing, mining, family farms and ranches...

They believe that food just comes from a box or a can.


19 posted on 12/15/2007 1:55:07 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: jazusamo

Eco nuts go crazy when one talks about timber being a renewable resource.

They hate logging for homes, but are starting to like logging for ‘bio mass’ stuff.


20 posted on 12/15/2007 1:56:46 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

Pork is pork. Why should we pay for your schools?


21 posted on 12/15/2007 1:57:35 PM PST by CGTRWK
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To: Flintlock; traviskicks

exactly :

I’m from the Government, and I’m here to help you.........


22 posted on 12/15/2007 1:57:36 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: CGTRWK

The federal government should transfer most of the public lands away from Washington so that the locals could finance their own schools.

The local communities did just fine until the feds ‘vacated’ historical allotments.


23 posted on 12/15/2007 2:03:09 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

Nothing new, same old same old.


24 posted on 12/15/2007 2:29:50 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: george76; abcraghead; aimhigh; Archie Bunker on steroids; bicycle thug; blackie; coffeebreak; ...
Oregon Ping

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Oregon Ping List.

25 posted on 12/15/2007 2:33:32 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: george76; abcraghead; aimhigh; Archie Bunker on steroids; bicycle thug; blackie; coffeebreak; ...
Oregon Ping

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Oregon Ping List.

26 posted on 12/15/2007 2:33:41 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: RightWhale; george76
"Washington might justify this kind of funding, but Washington should be out of the education/school business altogether"

I think that you're looking at this the wrong way. The timber in those forests rightfully belongs to those locales, not to the Fed Gov, and curtailing the logging is destroying their forests to boot.

Perhaps what we need is to dissolve the federal mistake. The Articles of Confederation provided way more than was needed already.

27 posted on 12/15/2007 2:35:43 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: george76; marsh2; editor-surveyor; SierraWasp; Grampa Dave; fish hawk
Counties in areas dominated by US Forests have received these payments since 1908 as a in-lieu payment for property taxes not collected. Here is a local article on this sorry action...

http://www.times-standard.com/ci_7730096

28 posted on 12/15/2007 3:20:00 PM PST by tubebender (The probability of being watched is directly proportional to the stupidity of your act.)
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To: marsh2; george76; Grampa Dave; Carry_Okie; tubebender; calcowgirl; All
"In our County, 65% of the land base is in federal lands."

Yes and yet we have The Nature CONservancy and all their little immitators manipulating the remaining rural private property from so-called "willing sellers" into federal/state ownership at hugely marked up government (taxpayers) cost to take more and more land off the county's dwindling property/schools & roads tax rolls!!!

Then everytime CA has a budget crisis with Pete Wilson, Gray Davis or Arnold Schwartzenfrauder, they abscound with our local property/schools & roads tax revenues!!!

Marsh2 is so correct it's sickening!!! Rural American timbered counties are treated like the USSR used to treat Siberia!!!

29 posted on 12/15/2007 3:50:07 PM PST by SierraWasp (Too many NIE contributors are ruthless, rogue resistance agents in our own CIA & State Dep!!!)
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To: seowulf

The Soviet planners were amateurs.


30 posted on 12/15/2007 3:57:48 PM PST by RightWhale (anti-razors are pro-life)
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To: george76
A House bill approved last week would set aside more than $1.5 billion to compensate 700 rural counties in 39 states --

Yet W wants another $30 billion for AIDS in Africa after already busting the bank a few years ago with a $15 billion spending spree.

31 posted on 12/15/2007 3:59:07 PM PST by Moonman62 (The issue of whether cheap labor makes America great should have been settled by the Civil War.)
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To: marsh2

Alaska is less than 1% privately owned. ANWR is on Fed land, Prudhoe on State land. Tax base? What is that?


32 posted on 12/15/2007 4:00:59 PM PST by RightWhale (anti-razors are pro-life)
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To: editor-surveyor

Jurists have yet to define ‘rights’ in general.


33 posted on 12/15/2007 4:07:19 PM PST by RightWhale (anti-razors are pro-life)
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To: george76

Real simple : these “rural schools” are just as chock full of libs as universities are. They killed our timber industry out here in MT, now this is their reward : cut them off at the knees, see how THEY like it...


34 posted on 12/15/2007 4:30:10 PM PST by timer (n/0=n=nx0)
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To: george76

Empty forests aren’t a taxbase. Being empty, other than a few roads to barely keep up they don’t cost anything either. No one lives there to need schools, or jails, or welfare. They may as well not exist.

Of course these local governments would have it easier if they were given new land with a logging industry to tax - that’s true of every local government in the country. And yet every other local government manages to pay their way with neither forest land or timber payments.

Historical allotments are just a polite name for welfare that’s been going on a long time.


35 posted on 12/15/2007 7:08:25 PM PST by CGTRWK
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To: CGTRWK; B4Ranch; SierraWasp; tubebender; Carry_Okie; editor-surveyor

” Historical allotments are just a polite name for welfare ...”

Sheep herders and cowboys running cattle on federal allotments put food on the table of many Americans.

With ‘vacated’ allotments, food will increasingly be from feed lots where growth hormones and lots of other drugs will likely be added.

No more free range food.


Logging also provides lumber for homes as well as jobs for families and tax revenue for all that ‘free’ stuff governments like to get credit for.


36 posted on 12/15/2007 8:12:10 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: CGTRWK; marsh2; jazusamo; SunkenCiv; familyop; Grampa Dave; Jeff Head

Some other economic thoughts on “ Historical allotments are just a polite name for welfare ...”

The feds do not give away these allotments for free. There is a bidding process where there are cash payments for the rent ; plus there is required maintenance or other mandated services.

Those who hate cow boys and sheep herders can and do bid , too .

Rural communities also provide fire, medical, and other emergency services to lost hikers, hunters, tourists, fishermen...These communities provide many fire fighters when massive forest fire explode every year.

Many search and rescue first responders are volunteers : they do not get paid.


37 posted on 12/15/2007 8:33:39 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: RightWhale

>Washington should be out of the education/school business altogether.<

Ready to vote for Ron Paul. He’s the only one who’ll kick the NEA out.


38 posted on 12/15/2007 8:35:09 PM PST by B4Ranch (( "Freedom is not free, but don't worry the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share." ))
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To: george76; AdmSmith; Berosus; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; ...

Thanks george76.


39 posted on 12/15/2007 9:02:59 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Monday, December 10, 2007____________________https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: CGTRWK; george76
"Empty forests aren’t a taxbase."

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? What empty forest?

40 posted on 12/15/2007 9:32:51 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor
What empty forest?

... the fed gov land that is just sitting there unused because logging isn't permitted currently. That is what this article is about, no?

41 posted on 12/15/2007 9:40:42 PM PST by CGTRWK
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To: CGTRWK; george76; editor-surveyor; Carry_Okie; marsh2; calcowgirl; Grampa Dave; tubebender; ...
Sometimes I wish I had the power to instruct rural/forested county governments to stop spending millions on rescuing so many of you ignorant city slickers who get in trouble "recreating" in our forests until you guys wise up and quit yelling "welfare" when the feds abscound with private property and the normal taxes that go with it and then provide only insulting token payments to offset such a huge loss!!!

Instead of blasting away with insufficient information (aka ignorance) as you have just done, come down out of you "city on a hill" and make an appointment to visit with a rural/forested county (with lots of federalized land in it) commissioner/supervisor and let him/her push back the frontiers of ignorance in you own mind on this subject!!!

Also, go back and re-read reply #29 so you can begin your re-education process with a little extra push. Thanks.

42 posted on 12/16/2007 2:10:23 PM PST by SierraWasp (Too many NIE contributors are ruthless, rogue resistance agents in our own CIA & State Dep!!!)
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To: SierraWasp; george76; marsh2
Thanks for the pings, SW. I always learn a lot from these threads.

george76, can you briefly describe what "historical allotments" are--or direct me to some reading material?

I did find some good posts from Marsh2 a couple months ago, here and here, that I found very informative. I've go lots of learning to do (since I'm one of those city slickers, lol).

43 posted on 12/16/2007 2:39:11 PM PST by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: DoughtyOne

My thoughts were along the same lines as yours. Perhaps the federal government would be better served by simply selling off excess lands in the West.


44 posted on 12/16/2007 2:46:48 PM PST by MSF BU (++)
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To: Salvation
The BLM timber land revenue belongs to the people of the states in which the land is contained.

Actually the land belongs to the people of those states, and should be returned to them.

That is not a task that could be completed instantaneously, so until the Fed Gov can divest itself of the land, management of the land should should be handed over to counties, and the counties should use the revenue generated from those lands as the people of those counties dictate, with all options on the table.

The Fed Gov took the land by legislative fiat and has no legitimate reason to hold it, since post offices and federal courthouses are usually situated in more urban settings.

If, in the future, the representatives of the people of the United States determine a need for the Fed Gov to own any of the land, they can buy it back through the same processes available for any other acquisitions.

45 posted on 12/16/2007 4:02:01 PM PST by Clinging Bitterly (Oregon - a pro-militia and firearms state that looks just like Afghanistan .)
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To: calcowgirl

Some of the rules that may be attached to allotments by the government against the rancher :

Wildlife

• Maintain all existing livestock waters and keep them available for wildlife use.

• Do not allow salt to be placed within one-quarter mile of water sources.

• Wildlife escape ramps would be placed in all livestock and wildlife waters.

• All new and reconstructed fences would be designed to allow for movement of mule deer, antelope and elk.

• Manage livestock grazing within protected and restricted Mexican spotted owl habitats to provide for woody and herbaceous vegetation necessary for prey species.

• Manage livestock grazing with northern goshawk habitat so that average use would not exceed 20% and would not exceed 40% in key areas.

• Conduct annual northern alpomado falcon surveys within identified potential habitat to track potential prey populations and to verify presence or absence of falcons.

• Protect nesting substrate of any northern alpomado falcon nests (if nesting occurs) from rubbing of livestock through appropriate protective measures (i.e. fencing).

Cultural Resources

• Protect known archeological sites by using management practices that would discourage livestock grazing within those areas.

Range

• Locate waters away from springs and other sensitive areas

• Salting and mineral locations would be at least ¼ mile from water locations.

• Routine inspections would be conducted to utilization level and monitor range and watershed conditions as prescribed the Terms and Conditions of each permit and Allotment Operating Instructions.

• Range analysis and production-utilization surveys would be conducted, as funding allows.

Water Quality

• The applicable BMPs would be incorporated to improve water quality during range and watershed improvement projects. As a minimum, utilize 22.1 and 22.11 through 22.16 as listed in the Forest Service Handbook 2509.22 (see Appendix C of EA) and Soil and Water Conservation Handbook, R-3 Transmittal, Effective December 3, 1990:

• To ensure that all project implementation contains site-specific BMP’s (best management practices) developed through the IRM process.

• To ensure that all new and renewed term grazing permits contain provisions for compliance with water pollution control and abatement regulations and standards under the authority of the Clean Water Act as an enforceable condition to those agreements.

• To do monitoring to ensure application of BMP’s as designed.


46 posted on 12/16/2007 4:20:29 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: calcowgirl

For more than a century, American ranchers across the West have depended on rangelands for their livelihoods and have devoted themselves to sustaining healthy landscapes.

However, the grazing operations throughout the West benefit more Americans than simply the ranchers that depend upon them. Well-managed livestock grazing accomplishes the following:

· Increases the diversity and productivity of rangelands and wildlife populations,

· Preserves open spaces and cultural traditions throughout the West, and

· Sustains the economies of rural communities.

http://www.beefusa.org/govegrazingpermitbuyouts.aspx


47 posted on 12/16/2007 4:23:06 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76; calcowgirl
BeefUSA.org??? (gasp!)(goin appopleptic) You're linkin us to a "Special Interest Lobbying" site??? How dare you???

That's precisely like going to "Friends of the River.org" to become informed on all the abuses the commercial whitewater rafting communutty is enduring at the hands of thoughtless city slickers and our Multi-Level Government(s)!!! (only half sarcastic)

The truth just ain't out there afterall, because everybody that writes/says anything you can find at some link has some axe to grind or agenda to further!!!

Pretty soon it all boils down to: "Don't tax you... And don't tax me... Tax that man, behind that tree!!!" (except fer yew bossy, un-thinkin city slickers!)(wide grin)

48 posted on 12/16/2007 5:12:37 PM PST by SierraWasp (Too many NIE contributors are ruthless, rogue resistance agents in our own CIA & State Dep!!!)
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To: SierraWasp

I could not find a ‘balanced’ site even after several searches.

Lots of PETA sites that say eating meat is bad or Sierra Club sites saying that ranchers do nothing good for wildlife, water, archeological issues ...which is why I put up the first list that shows some of the government requirements of leasing an allotment.

We know, but lurkers may not, that ranchers, grazing folks, logging people also pay money .


49 posted on 12/16/2007 5:23:16 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76; SierraWasp

I have to back up a bit. You posted about “vacated historical allotments.” I googled it and came up with a lot of your posts.

I’m trying to understand who was allotting what, and to whom. What period of history are we talking about (i.e. when)? And what changed? What was vacated, when, and by who? Forgive me for being dense. It seems you are referring to some sort of federal regulation but I still don’t understand “allotment.” And what is “BMP”?


50 posted on 12/16/2007 5:35:56 PM PST by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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