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Colorado Heroine May Have Been Legally Prevented from Using Beretta as Security Guard
Vanity | 16 December, 2007 | Marktwain

Posted on 12/16/2007 10:43:41 AM PST by marktwain

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To: Myrddin

-—Last time I shot that one, a small fragment zipped through the tip of my left ear. -—

I would check the cylinder alignment and lockup on that one. A lot of times fragments are the result of shaving at the forcing cone and the fragments can either blow out the gap or the ports.


151 posted on 12/16/2007 9:52:45 PM PST by claudiustg (You know it. I know it.)
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To: marktwain

Wonder why this incident isn’t more in the news?

It’s only a week old.

Would the coverage be the same (ie, virutally nonexistent) if say, someone had opened fire on a “Gay Pride” parade?


152 posted on 12/16/2007 9:54:49 PM PST by A_Former_Democrat
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To: claudiustg
I would check the cylinder alignment and lockup on that one. A lot of times fragments are the result of shaving at the forcing cone and the fragments can either blow out the gap or the ports.

I suspect it was material emitted from the port.

Just minutes ago I was searching for a list of acceptable ammo to feed my S&W 460 and I found a recall notice for the Performance Center 460XVR Hunter Magnum. I zipped down to my safe, recorded the serial number and determined that my revolver is one of those recalled. Yikes. Good thing I haven't shot more than one round of .454 through that one. The recall is due to barrel problems. I think that run of revolvers was touted as having German manufactured "rifle" barrels. Apparently there was a problem with the quality of the steel used.

153 posted on 12/16/2007 10:33:56 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin

the “-” number will be on the face of the cylinder (Where you load). My son has a 629-5.


154 posted on 12/16/2007 11:16:42 PM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: A_Former_Democrat
“Wonder why this incident isn’t more in the news?

It’s only a week old.”

A private citizen, a woman with a ccw permit saves dozens of lives because she has her own, privately owned handgun with a possible “assault weapon” magazine, and credits God with guiding her.

What could liberals possibly find objectionable about that?

155 posted on 12/17/2007 3:40:31 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
A private citizen, a woman with a ccw permit saves dozens of lives because she has her own, privately owned handgun with a possible “assault weapon” magazine, and credits God with guiding her. What could liberals possibly find objectionable about that?

One of the funniest (and at the same time saddest) posts I've read in a long time.

156 posted on 12/17/2007 5:27:54 AM PST by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: supercat

Ammo shortage is a logistics issue that should be resolved before the firefight. However, you fight with what you have not what you want.


157 posted on 12/17/2007 5:50:37 AM PST by Steamburg (Your wallet speaks the only language most politicians understand.)
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To: claudiustg

or just 1 from a 629. :)


158 posted on 12/17/2007 6:27:18 AM PST by absolootezer0 (white male christian hetero married gun toting SUV driving motorcycle riding conservative smoker)
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To: MarkL
there are programs out there available to professionals and private citizens like my self that create as close to real life s situation as possible and the most important objective is to control yourself in a high stress situation, how to combat the stress in order to remain focused on what is going on around you. Another area that has helped me is my background in martial arts because that also teaches you to remain in control and focused.
Now in all honesty I have never been forced to fire at anyone and I thank God for that. One thing I would stress to my students was the best weapon you have is mounted just above your neck! When you can control that is when you move to the tools
159 posted on 12/17/2007 7:08:11 AM PST by CowboyConservative
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To: marktwain

What I find interesting is that the church felt it necessary to have security in the first place. I’m glad they did. Is that church located in a high crime area or did they receive threats, perhaps from the now dead shooter?


160 posted on 12/17/2007 7:10:28 AM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: Nachoman
I have been very fortunate and never had a situation progress to that point. I thank God for that I have a good friend who retired with 27 years with the Cheyenne PD and he also went that entire time without having to use deadly force and he is quite proud of that.
Now my friend in all fairness how many gunfights have you won?
161 posted on 12/17/2007 7:14:41 AM PST by CowboyConservative
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To: XeniaSt

I haven’t been able to find anything that says that “licensed security guards” must carry revolvers. I looked for that before. In fact, I’m aware of MANY “licensed security officers” carrying semiautomatics. Granted the majority of them that I know personally are guarding Federal facilities, and most of the time such rules aren’t enforced against Federally hired guards (who by the way are CONTRACTORS, not “Federal officers”, so don’t get those two things confused).

There may be some local rules or something, but I’m not aware of any of those. In fact, my own BANK doesn’t even have armed guards.

then again, knowing some of them when I asked about “Why don’t they carry weapons?” to one of their bosses.... his response was “You know them, would YOU want THEM carrying guns?”

I have to say that in that context the answer was no, but that company has a habit of hiring anyone who can still walk, puts them in a security uniform and then tells them to “guard” something. They don’t even provide the people in uniform with a cell phone to call 911. Needless to say, those folks are no longer contractors where I work.


162 posted on 12/17/2007 7:16:59 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: Mad Dawg

There is also an account that he was wearing some kind of flak vest as well. If that’s the case, probably wouldn’t have mattered what weapon she had, it would have taken more than one shot to the chest.


163 posted on 12/17/2007 7:18:23 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: XeniaSt
What is being discussed in the article is a CITY ordinance for the city of Colorado Springs.

There is no state law covering the topic.


I'm not even aware of a local ordinance on revolvers.... but, it's possible I suppose. That's why I won't ever get "licensed" as a guard, lol. I'll be a "Security Consultant". haha
164 posted on 12/17/2007 7:21:06 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: marktwain
What could liberals possibly find objectionable about that?

OMG ROTFLMAO! (Damn, too many acronyms!)
165 posted on 12/17/2007 7:22:59 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: marktwain

Found this in the news... but, you know it’s a buncha liberals that wrote it.

Colorado Springs may change gun rules for guards
Some say a well-armed young man’s attack on a church underscores the need to change a city ordinance so that security officers may carry semiautomatic weapons.
By DeeDee Correll, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

December 15, 2007

DENVER — In Colorado Springs, where a troubled young man brought an assault rifle, two semiautomatic handguns and 1,000 rounds of ammunition to a church, security guards aren’t allowed to carry anything more powerful than a revolver.

That could change early next year, when the city will consider a proposal to permit licensed security officers to carry semiautomatic weapons.

The proposed change doesn’t come in response to Sunday’s attack at New Life Church, where Matthew Murray, 24, shot five people before a volunteer guard stopped him with several shots. But some say the situation underscores the need for security officers to be as well-prepared as the criminals they may face.

“It’s just a common-sense issue. Do you want an old, outdated six-shooter up against a machine gun?” said John Pepe of Cheyenne Mountain Security, a private firm in Colorado Springs.

The existing ordinance dates back to the early 1980s, City Clerk Kathryn Young said. Though the ordinance itself does not specify what types of weapons a guard may carry, an attached policy spells out that guards may carry revolvers capable of holding as many as eight rounds of ammunition. The allowed revolvers, which can have 4- or 6-inch barrels, include .38s, .38 Specials and .357 magnums.

Young said that she wasn’t sure why city officials originally created the restriction, but that it wasn’t common for people to carry semiautomatics then.

The regulation applies only to those who work as paid contract security officers, city spokeswoman Sue Skiffington-Blumberg said.

She said the restriction on semiautomatic weapons did apply to volunteers such as Jeanne Assam, who was working at New Life Church during Sunday’s assault.

Assam returned fire with a Beretta 9-millimeter semiautomatic handgun, hitting Murray several times before he shot himself in the head.

A coalition of security firms has urged the city to change its position for a long time, Young said. About eight months ago, city officials began examining the policy, and they intend to propose changes in January.

Young said other Colorado cities had a variety of policies on the issue, with some restricting guards to revolvers and others allowing semiautomatic weapons.

The biggest disadvantage of a revolver is that it holds only five to seven rounds, whereas a semiautomatic can hold as many as 15, Pepe said. “If you’re in a line of fire, you want the best weapon possible,” he said.

Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which favors tighter firearms controls, said he saw the logic in allowing security officers to have the same firepower as a potential assailant. “We allow ordinary citizens to carry these things around. Why we do that, I don’t know. But if we’re going to allow that, we’re probably forcing the hand of security guards to do the same,” he said.

The real solution, he said, is for Congress to enact a new ban on assault weapons. “Then we wouldn’t have to have an arms race going,” he said.


166 posted on 12/17/2007 7:27:18 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: Scotsman will be Free
What I find interesting is that the church felt it necessary to have security in the first place. I’m glad they did. Is that church located in a high crime area or did they receive threats, perhaps from the now dead shooter?

While I can't speak for the church, I know that due to heightened security measures (especially after the Seattle shootings last year) every synagogue in Kansas City has armed guards (off-duty police officers) and tight security (parking passes and "tickets") to get into High Holy Day services.

Mark

167 posted on 12/17/2007 8:12:02 AM PST by MarkL
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To: CowboyConservative
there are programs out there available to professionals and private citizens like my self that create as close to real life s situation as possible and the most important objective is to control yourself in a high stress situation, how to combat the stress in order to remain focused on what is going on around you. Another area that has helped me is my background in martial arts because that also teaches you to remain in control and focused.

I know what you mean. One of my dreams when I was younger was to attend Gunsite while Colonel Cooper was still there. While that dream is gone, Gunsite would still be a terrific learning experience, as would a much closer (to me) school, the Chapman Academy, outside of Columbia, MO.

We had some very interesting matches, including one that started with 5 minutes of strenuous calisthenics before beginning the course of fire. And often, these courses were "blind," where we had no idea what we were supposed to do, other than vague "rescue the bunny" instructions. Again, the idea was to introduce stress and uncertainty into a controlled match (there was a RSO that shadowed the shooter, ready to end the shooting if things got out of hand.

Mark

168 posted on 12/17/2007 8:17:39 AM PST by MarkL
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To: marktwain

Had the article mentioned that IF Assam had been hired by the Church as a security guard she’d be restricted to a revolver, it would have been more accurate. She can be a security guard and carry a semi automatic as a private citizen while not on duty. In any event, it’s a stupid regulation. Speedloaders and a lot of practice will even the odds.


169 posted on 12/17/2007 8:22:21 AM PST by jess35
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To: MarkL
If you have the time and resources look into Gunsight they are very highly recommended and are my next stop. I have been through many good courses and trained in just about any circumstance you can think of. Now it is time for the best. My grandfather drilled through my head as a kid you can never learn to much and he was right. Gunsight is owned by and instructed by an ex marine, swat team member and they instruct law enforcement and people just like you and I
170 posted on 12/17/2007 8:40:11 AM PST by CowboyConservative
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To: CowboyConservative
Something I have not mentioned in these responses is I trained mostly women in self defense and that covered more than just firearms. I got started doing that after I found out a friend of my wife was getting abused by her husband. I wont tolerate that under any circumstance, and that got me started. No disrespect intended here but women have as a rule smaller hands and when picking the best firearm I have a little drill that works quite well here.
Have more than one firearm here but have the person pick a place on the wall picture etc and close their eyes and point the firearm at that point then open their eyes. If the gun was on target good choice if not keep trying until you find the grip that correctly fits, that firearm will be pointed on target. I didnt care if it was a 1911 with all the bells or a snub nose 38 that is the gun you start with. All of us have in our collection one firearm that feels the best and we just naturally shoot better that is why. Please try that and let me know what you think.
171 posted on 12/17/2007 9:04:30 AM PST by CowboyConservative
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To: claudiustg

I suspect that you are in the brick masonry trade.... 8~)


172 posted on 12/17/2007 9:06:42 AM PST by tracer
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To: El Gato

Confucius say: “ 9 mm pistol is .45 set on ‘stun’”.....


173 posted on 12/17/2007 9:08:26 AM PST by tracer
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To: XeniaSt
Please cite the CRS #

Indeed ... if it really is against the rules, there are a lot of licensed security guards in violation of it.

174 posted on 12/17/2007 9:10:34 AM PST by r9etb
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To: XeniaSt; marktwain
URBAN LEGEND ALERT

Here are the Colorado Springs licensing requirements for private security services

I did not see ANYTHING in these requirements restricting guards to revolvers.

The only restriction is that licensed private security guards cannot carry CONCEALED weapons -- they have to be visible.

175 posted on 12/17/2007 9:23:27 AM PST by r9etb
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To: Rick.Donaldson
There may be some local rules or something, but I’m not aware of any of those. In fact, my own BANK doesn’t even have armed guards.

I posted a link to the CO Spgs rules above. There's NOTHING in 'em about revolvers-only.

176 posted on 12/17/2007 9:25:04 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb

Yeah, I saw it. There’s apparently something in the Colorado Springs ordinances though, based on what some of the downtown offices are saying. I haven’t had time to call the Clerk and Recorder on this today, perhaps this afternoon.

But, apparently the rules were written some years back, perhaps in the late 80s or so, and semiautomatics weren’t as prevalent I guess, from what some of the articles I read today said. (I don’t think that’s precisely the case, but my thinking is that they didn’t take into account the NEED for having a weapon with more bullets than the bad guys. Even though WE as citizens have discussed such things for YEARS — city councils are NOT known to be very “conservative” in particular OURS here in the Springs area)


177 posted on 12/17/2007 9:29:03 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: r9etb
URBAN LEGEND ALERT

See 166 above

178 posted on 12/17/2007 9:29:50 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

Hm. OK ... so the ordnance is somewhere other than in the rules for security agencies? How ... odd. I can say that it is very widely ignored if there is a law agin’ it.


179 posted on 12/17/2007 9:32:03 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb

M. Firearms: It shall be unlawful for any private security officer to carry any firearm while performing security services without first obtaining a firearm endorsement from the City Clerk’s Office. It shall be unlawful to carry a concealed weapon while performing security services or exercising the privileges of licensure. (Ord. 98-71; Ord. 01-42)

That’s all I can find anywhere in the regulation. I’ll have to dig more in a few.


180 posted on 12/17/2007 9:32:44 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: Rick.Donaldson

Yeah, that’s all I saw, too. The article says there’s an “attachment,” but it’s not in the posted rules.


181 posted on 12/17/2007 9:34:12 AM PST by r9etb
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To: XeniaSt

Urban legend? Which part of the post I put up there is urban legend? Other than the fact the last line wants to put the onus on Congress to pass “tighter” assault weapon laws. LOL

I know “Dragonman” personally. He is wont to say odd things from time to time too, but I’ve never known him to say anything about anyone “only needing 5 or 6 bullets” or whatever that article quoted him as saying.

I shoot at his range, and bought two 9MM weapons at his place.


182 posted on 12/17/2007 9:34:48 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: r9etb
I think the ordinance was done to support moonlighting
Co Spgs Police Officers who could wear their service pistol

183 posted on 12/17/2007 9:35:02 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Rick.Donaldson

The “urban legend” reference was quoting me....


184 posted on 12/17/2007 9:40:59 AM PST by r9etb
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To: XeniaSt

Ok... I think I’m tracking now.

Xenia says there is a law, and the rest of us say “Nope”.

So, there is not a regulation that *I* can find specific to carrying a revolver vs. a semiautomatic. There is a rule about carrying concealed.

That one I saw. There are some other ordinances listed I’ve not been able to find or go through yet, but I’m aware of many security guards who carry semiautomatic weapons, in uniform. Off duty, they carry concealed or not at all.

The article I posted in 166 I think you were talking about was from the LA Times, and who knows where they pulled their information from, but it apparently wasn’t all local here in Colorado Springs.

I’d say, given their penchant for taking the Leftist side of things, and specifically quoting the jerk from Brady, they are intent on pushing the “Let’s get Congress to ban big guns” line.

That article is anything but “equal time” or fair minded, by the way. And just because a news article says it, doesn’t MEAN it’s true.


185 posted on 12/17/2007 9:42:29 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: r9etb

Ok. Sorry. I hate it when threads have “one liners” lol.

It get’s confusing. Sorry for being confused.


186 posted on 12/17/2007 9:45:00 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: CowboyConservative

Exactly how many raving gunman murderers have you stopped?


187 posted on 12/17/2007 9:55:33 AM PST by BurbankKarl
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To: BurbankKarl

He could tell you, but then... you know... he’d have to keel ye.


188 posted on 12/17/2007 10:01:17 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: marktwain

I’m enjoying watching the liberal mainstream media stagger from theory to theory as to what type of story is best to discredit this woman who’s heroism saved dozens, if not a hundred or more, respectful worshippers.

When you read the ‘trail ballon’s’ its pretty funny, actually.

And oh so very revealing.


189 posted on 12/17/2007 10:04:47 AM PST by Badeye (No thanks, Huck, I'm not whitewashing the fence for you this election cycle)
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To: MarkL
I need to post a correction I stated Gunsight I actually meant to say Thunder Ranch I apologize for the boo boo. It’s an old age thing they say the first thing to go is the mind actually it’s the hair but the race is on.
190 posted on 12/17/2007 10:45:30 AM PST by CowboyConservative
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To: Badeye

The problem is they can’t really fault this woman with anything, except of course...

1) Being a woman

2) going to church

3) carrying a GUN! (GASP)

4) Defending a bunch of people.. including MEN who didn’t stop the guy

5) Praising God for giving her the strength and a true aim.... (Double GASP)

6) Carrying a weapon capable of holding more than six rounds! (OMG! and GASP for good measure).

7) Finding some obscure, apparently NON-EXISTENT rule I can’t find to say, “Well, IF this... then THAT”... kind of crap.

So far, there’s nothing, not ONE thing legitimate about ANY news article I’ve read where they have tried to make her sound bad... that actually makes her sound ‘discredited’.

The MSM is dying, and they are loathe to understand this, and yet more and more failed social workers are turning to journalism.


191 posted on 12/17/2007 10:46:53 AM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: Rick.Donaldson

All great points RD.

(hey, can we post on this thread? Does kellynla have Colorado ties?)

I found Mika on MSNBC’s ‘Morning Joe’ response to this story revealing. When it was noted that one person with a gun made a ‘difference’ her response was;

” no, no no no no....sigh’

Followed by ‘when do I get to have sex with Tiki Barber?’

(okay, that last part I’m just guessing after watching her put her hands all over him this morning...couldn’t keep her hands off him, I’m wondering if Tiki’s wife will ‘cut her’ if they every meet...)


192 posted on 12/17/2007 10:50:18 AM PST by Badeye (No thanks, Huck, I'm not whitewashing the fence for you this election cycle)
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To: BurbankKarl
Dear sir
That question has already been asked but in all fairness I will answer it again.
First I have been practicing self defense in all forms for 38 years. You tend to learn just a little in a timespan that long epecialy about yourself and your own personal limitations and we all have them just in different areas. I have trained with some of the best in all areas. I have shot competition and build custom 1911’s on the side. I was always told that knowledge and experience only have value when shared.
Now to address your answer once I was involved in a showdown as such that could of gone either way by the grace of God the other party realized what they were up against and backed down so technically I won that one without bloodshed you can judge from that.
Now again in all fairness how many gunman have you stopped?
193 posted on 12/17/2007 11:11:05 AM PST by CowboyConservative
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To: Navy Patriot

The soldier is doing a pretty good job of controling his gun...


194 posted on 12/17/2007 11:28:19 AM PST by rahbert
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To: MarkL

It’s a crying shame that armed guards need to be employed. Better if folks packed.


195 posted on 12/17/2007 12:24:21 PM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: CowboyConservative
I've heard good things about Thunder Ranch. For a while, after Jeff Cooper sold Gunsite, he was very unhappy about what the owners were doing. I don't recall if he "made up" with them, or new owners, more to the liking of Colonel Cooper took over, but in his later years, he was "professor emeritus" at Gunsite. Ray Chapman is also well known in military and law enforcement circles. And he hosts the Bianchi Cup every year at his place.

Unfortunately, I don't think that I'll be going to any of them, realistically. I'm just in too bad a shape. I hadn't gone shooting in quite a while, and when I did, I realized just how painful it was. I've got awful arthritus, and I'll probably need to have both my knees replaced within the next few years. Heck, walking is quite painful: Trying to shoot from a Weaver stance was agony. Of course, if and when I decide to begin carrying concealed, I'll just have to deal with the pain. There's no way in the world that I would carry without making sure that I'm as comfortable and practiced with my weapon as humanly possible.

Mark

196 posted on 12/17/2007 12:30:02 PM PST by MarkL
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To: Clemenza
Being that Beretta likely murdered his wife, I don't think he would make a good security guard either. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, and keep your eye on the sparrow!

"...and dat's da name of dat tune..."

197 posted on 12/17/2007 12:31:25 PM PST by dfwgator (11+7+15=3 Heismans)
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To: Badeye

I dunno about you Badeye, but *I* live in Colorado Springs, so I can post anything I want about it, and complain when news posted is incorrect too! :)


198 posted on 12/17/2007 12:54:21 PM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: Rick.Donaldson

I’ve been to Colorado Springs once (1975) and have flown over the state numerous times!

(chuckle)


199 posted on 12/17/2007 12:55:37 PM PST by Badeye (No thanks, Huck, I'm not whitewashing the fence for you this election cycle)
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To: CowboyConservative
I was always told that knowledge and experience only have value when shared.

Sometimes sharing doesn't have to be with the general public, just a perp, or a wannabe military with you in their sights CC... just wanted to add that. (Meaning one doesn't have to write a BOOK to share, just give better than one gets....)
200 posted on 12/17/2007 12:57:26 PM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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