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The true enemy: human tribalism
National Post ^ | 18 Dec 2007 | Jonathan Kay

Posted on 12/18/2007 11:37:23 AM PST by BGHater

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To: ZeitgeistSurfer
which encompases fanaticism and a willingness to die for the tribe and its beliefs,

Sounds like Islam
21 posted on 12/18/2007 12:05:11 PM PST by G8 Diplomat (Creatures are divided into 6 kingdoms: Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Monera, Protista, & Saudi Arabia)
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To: G8 Diplomat

It is. The full title is “The Suicide of Reason: Radical Islam’s Threat to the West”


22 posted on 12/18/2007 12:06:40 PM PST by ZeitgeistSurfer (Irimiru Karabrao! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cloverfield Hoboken wgah'nagl fhtagn.)
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To: All
Is there something about Islam that serves to lock in mankind's inherently tribal instincts? Perhaps.

That would explain why they're still trapped in the 7th century while the rest of the world has progressed. Islam holds the Middle East captive. Get rid of it, and they can move forward.
23 posted on 12/18/2007 12:08:55 PM PST by G8 Diplomat (Creatures are divided into 6 kingdoms: Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Monera, Protista, & Saudi Arabia)
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To: Lurker
...and one that I share.

We lost over 200,000 soldiers fighting those tyrants tooth and nail, and ended up fire-bombing and killing their cities (including many, many civilians in them caught up in the struggle) to the point where not only their armies were defeated, but the PEOPLE WHO HAD SUPPORTED THOSE ARMIES WERE ALSO ABJECTLY DEFEATED and wholly ready to surrender unconditionally.

Some people do not like it when I say it, but, in essence, we made "good" Germans and "good" Japanese out of those peoples and it has largely endured to this day.

It's time we made "good" Muslims out of the radical Islamics and all who support them.

24 posted on 12/18/2007 12:13:19 PM PST by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: BGHater
>"The reason Iraq and Afghanistan remain unsettled battlefields isn't that our two civilizations can't agree on the nature of God."

IF that's what you believe, then you wont mind me telling you to go to hell!

Right is right, wrong is wrong. Good is good, evil is evil. Truth is truth, lies are lies.

IF you cant/wont distinguish the difference between them you are either a clueless idiot, or a tool of evil.

25 posted on 12/18/2007 12:19:14 PM PST by rawcatslyentist (Smithers hand me that icecream scoop. This isn't rocket science, it's brain surgery.)
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To: BGHater

Here’s a funny thing to think about... well, not funny really.. but, if the United States (and most other countries) suddenly ceased to exist in it’s current form, let’s say due to a major, global disaster (Asteroid hitting the planet for example).. the world would be reduced quickly to small, surviving enclaves of humans who would effectively save themselves as best they could and most likely would NOT adopt something like “Federalism” and a Constitution to continue to exist.

In short, they’d kill anyone trying to take their survival benefits (food, land or whatever) and it would be... golly, tribalism. And they’d survive just fine without Congress wouldn’t they?


26 posted on 12/18/2007 12:19:17 PM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: BGHater
Is there something about Islam that serves to lock in mankind's inherently tribal instincts? Perhaps.

No "perhaps" about it. Islam is just a cult which sanctifies all the ugly tendencies of tribal patriarchal pastoral-nomadic culture by cloaking them in a sham "religion." It's Jim Jones' People's Temple on an immense scale. Polygamy, genital mutilation (to keep the young subjected to the chieftains), slavery, brigandage, etc. All ancient traditions among pastoral nomads of the Arabian region.

27 posted on 12/18/2007 12:20:58 PM PST by hellbender
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To: The_Victor

They’re also called ‘liberals’


28 posted on 12/18/2007 12:21:47 PM PST by Noumenon (Liberalism itself is a hate crime)
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To: hellbender

Hmmm... perhaps we should note that not all tribal systems are created equal. Islam doen’t equal tribalism and tribalism doesn’t equal islam. And none of it can stand up to nationalism, ask the Scots or the amerinds.


29 posted on 12/18/2007 12:24:47 PM PST by ichabod1 ("Self defense is not only our right, it is our duty." President Ronald Reagan)
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To: G8 Diplomat
...in the early 90s the Iraqi gov't declared that officials weren't to use their tribal names.

There's a guy I know from Iraq who says that Saddam Hussein decreed that all existing last-names were void, and would be replaced by the person's father's first name, in an attempt to weaken extended families.

30 posted on 12/18/2007 12:25:39 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Lurker

That’s the elephant in the living room that virtually no one wants to see. But it is the undeniable and logical conclusion at which we must arrive if we want to save our own civilization.


31 posted on 12/18/2007 12:25:55 PM PST by Noumenon (Liberalism itself is a hate crime)
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer

I just received this book. Every page contains gems.


32 posted on 12/18/2007 12:27:44 PM PST by Noumenon (Liberalism itself is a hate crime)
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To: G8 Diplomat
Either that or they use bin xxx, like bin Laden; bin = son of in Arabic. They don't have true last names, rather names that indicate which tribe or clan they come from.

That's like the old Irish and highland Scots (definitely tribal or clan societies) with their O'- and Mac-Somebodies. Russians have their patronymics, and Scandinavians their -sons or sens. Tribalism is deeply rooted, but has been suppressed in the West by Christianity, the rule of law, and capitalism. Even so, peoples as similar racially as Flemings & Walloons, or Czechs & Slovaks, cannot get along.

33 posted on 12/18/2007 12:30:27 PM PST by hellbender
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To: BGHater
It's not just the Arabs, lots of languages have special endings or prefixes on last names that mean "son of" (in Icelandic, they put either -sonur or -dottir on the end of the father's first name and that becomes their child's last name). In Russian it's -ov/-ev, in Irish it's -fitz (i.e. Fitzgerlad), in German it's -sohn, in English it's -son, in Swedish it's -sson, in Norwegian it's -sen, in Finnish it's -nen, in Armenian it's -ian/yan. There's an element of this Farsi too....take Ahmadinejad's name for instance. My Farsi dictionaries list jad as meaning either "grandfather" or "ancestor," and then there's the Ahmed, which is a first name. Also many Iranian names end with -i (Pahlavi, Khomeini, etc). Russians do a special thing with their middle name...it's the father's first name + -ovich/evich for boys, and -ovna/evna for girls. Just about every culture originally had some sort of name indicating what family they came from, but here in the West we've moved on from the concept of tribalism and family clans, but in the Middle East and Africa they still have that ancient mentality.
34 posted on 12/18/2007 12:44:36 PM PST by G8 Diplomat (Creatures are divided into 6 kingdoms: Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Monera, Protista, & Saudi Arabia)
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To: hellbender

Yep. See #34...just finished posting. What a coincidence, lol


35 posted on 12/18/2007 12:45:18 PM PST by G8 Diplomat (Creatures are divided into 6 kingdoms: Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Monera, Protista, & Saudi Arabia)
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To: BGHater
If in fact tribalism is inextricably etched into the human organism one wonders at the feasibility of standing outside it enough to debate the matter. I don't think that it is, frankly. It does certainly describe a form of default to which the stressed social behavior of humans often devolves in the absence or the breakdown of alternate constructions. That is because it is a highly successful survival strategy. It does not preclude individualism but it can be used to suppress it.

It is important to differentiate between anthropological/sociological descriptions of human behavior and their philosophical sources. Indeed, one of the great philosophical failures of the 20th century has been an overemphasis on sociological models as normative instead of merely descriptive. That sort of mistaken emphasis is what has given rise to class analysis and the attempt to deal with human intercourse purely on the basis of power relationships between collectives. That is how an outsider might suspect we behave by appearance and in the absence of better information, but (1) there are no outsiders (short of God) and (2) there is better information.

That the source of political rights resides within the individual and not within a collective is one of the deep truths of the Enlightenment that was the inevitable consequence of that individual's relationship with his or her God, whatever form the latter might take. It is one of the foundational characteristics of what we term Western civilization. The challenge to that composed of the denial of God and the supremacy of the collective has led us down the pathway of tribalism largely because in the absence of the structure of Western civilization the survival mechanisms kick in. It is not a superior set of cultural behaviors, it is a primitivism that is clear evidence of the failure of those alternate behaviors that pretended to be superior.

Tribalism may be transcended by such structures in that way, and in fact only in a healthy society is this possible. Where, for example, a member of an ethnic group may consider himself or herself primarily an American and still maintain that ethnic identity, this is not a sign of a misplaced loyalty but a sign that where the repository of political rights is in the individual, that individual is free to apportion those loyalties as he or she chooses and not at the behest of the demands of the collective. This is not simply a transference of subordination to a larger collective. What is significant is the individual's ability to decide.

Excessive tribalism in American politics is, ultimately, un-American. It strikes at the very foundations of the overall social structure and imposes the claims of the collective. It is useful for those who who wish to control individuals through the demands of the collective. These are chains.

All IMHO, of course.

36 posted on 12/18/2007 1:42:43 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: G8 Diplomat

Besides all those primitive blood-line clan names, it’s struck me that many English (and other Euro) surnames are vocational; they denote an occupation or craft: Cook, Clark (clerk), Miller, Smith, Wright (Wheelwright, Wainwright, Cartwright, etc.), Carpenter, Fuller, Weaver. I think this is evidence of settled, civilized society with lawful market exchanges of services, over a period of many centuries. I doubt there is anything like that in Arab or other nomadic-tribal-brigand cultures.


37 posted on 12/18/2007 1:46:15 PM PST by hellbender
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To: Lurker
Which is precisely why we should treat islam in the same manner we treated Nazism, Italian fascism, and Japanese Imperial militarism. Namely by destroying it utterly.

Islam is far too large and disconnected to be destroyed militarily. We need to destroy it by not being afraid to offer its children better options than the imams do. And that means we must be an example of that better option, and not the increasingly corrupt welfare state we are morphing into.

38 posted on 12/18/2007 1:51:52 PM PST by Mr. Jeeves ("Wise men don't need to debate; men who need to debate are not wise." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: Jeff Head
It's time we made "good" Muslims out of the radical Islamics and all who support them.

I saw on some thread awhile ago that there was a well-educated Muslim guy in Yemen who was able to convince a few radical terrorist wannabes that killing infidels was a bad idea and morally wrong. I dunno what happened to him, but if he's out there somewhere we could really use him at the moment....assuming the Wahhabis don't take his head off.
39 posted on 12/18/2007 1:52:41 PM PST by G8 Diplomat (Creatures are divided into 6 kingdoms: Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Monera, Protista, & Saudi Arabia)
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To: hellbender

Good point. Although the name Khayyam means “tent maker” in Arabic....that’s as advanced as they got.


40 posted on 12/18/2007 1:53:46 PM PST by G8 Diplomat (Creatures are divided into 6 kingdoms: Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Monera, Protista, & Saudi Arabia)
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