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Archbishop says nativity 'a legend'
Telegraph.co.uk ^ | 12/20/07 | Sophie Borland

Posted on 12/20/2007 5:43:47 AM PST by Oshkalaboomboom

The Archbishop of Canterbury said yesterday that the Christmas story of the Three Wise Men was nothing but a 'legend'.

Dr Rowan Williams has claimed there was little evidence that the Magi even existed and there was certainly nothing to prove there were three of them or that they were kings.

Dr Williams argued that the traditional Christmas story was nothing but a 'legend'

He said the only reference to the wise men from the East was in Matthew's gospel and the details were very vague.

Dr Williams said: "Matthew's gospel says they are astrologers, wise men, priests from somewhere outside the Roman Empire, that's all we're really told. It works quite well as legend."

The Archbishop went on to dispel other details of the Christmas story, adding that there were probably no asses or oxen in the stable.

He argued that Christmas cards which showed the Virgin Mary cradling the baby Jesus, flanked by shepherds and wise men, were misleading. As for the scenes that depicted snow falling in Bethlehem, the Archbishop said the chance of this was "very unlikely".

In a final blow to the traditional nativity story, Dr Williams concluded that Jesus was probably not born in December at all. He said: "Christmas was when it was because it fitted well with the winter festival."

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: anglican; apostacy; archbishop; europeanchristians; fauxchristian; nativity; revisionism; rowanwilliams; uk
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So here you have a high ranking official in a so-called Christian religion calling Christmas a myth and then you wonder why Church attendance in England is in a freefall. Truly boggles the mind.
1 posted on 12/20/2007 5:43:49 AM PST by Oshkalaboomboom
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
Video evidence to the contrary here
2 posted on 12/20/2007 5:48:11 AM PST by Hegemony Cricket (Although most dead people vote democrat, aborted babies, if given the choice, would vote Republican.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

Take it whence it comes. This man is a heretic, the ArchDruid, presiding over a group of limpwristed fairies prancing around in dresses and women in pantsuits with dog collars.


3 posted on 12/20/2007 5:48:29 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
“Archbishop of Canterbury”

Has made a comfortable life with this “legend”.

I actually wonder what his end game is. What is the object of this exercise?

4 posted on 12/20/2007 5:49:36 AM PST by edcoil (Reality doesn't say much - doesn't need too)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

So the Archbishop of Canterberry doesn’t believe the bible? Time to toss him out on his ear.


5 posted on 12/20/2007 5:52:49 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

You do you reckon will be the first Muslim Archbishop of Canterbury, and when will he take office?


6 posted on 12/20/2007 5:53:40 AM PST by chesley (Where's the omelet? -- Orwell)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

Does that mean Nestor the Long-Eared Christmas Donkey didn’t really carry Mary to Bethlehem either?

My entire belief system is falling apart.


7 posted on 12/20/2007 5:53:44 AM PST by Slapshot68
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

The headline written by some Liberal POS is misleading.

I’ve heard that the three “wise men” may have not come until weeks after the birth of Christ, which means the “manger” scene may have not included them. Not a big deal, and the Christmas Nativity scene is symbolic of their patronage.

What is going on in this world?????


8 posted on 12/20/2007 5:53:50 AM PST by rightinthemiddle (Guess what? I'm voting for the Conservative.)
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To: edcoil
I actually wonder what his end game is. What is the object of this exercise?

Sounds like he's trying avoid spending eternity in heaven.

9 posted on 12/20/2007 5:54:34 AM PST by ClearCase_guy (The broken wall, the burning roof and tower. And Agamemnon dead.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

The olny “myth” here is that of the World Wide Anglican Communion..


10 posted on 12/20/2007 5:55:24 AM PST by ken5050
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To: MEGoody

well, he is right about december. jesus wasnt born then, church officials way back when just took over a pagan holiday.


11 posted on 12/20/2007 5:55:43 AM PST by abstracTT
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
Cardinal Rowan is obviously much smarter than Matthew or the other gospel writers. Jesus Christ would be so pleased with Church stewardship devoted to debunking Gospel “myth” and seeding doubt among the faithful.

I wonder when Cardinal Rowan DOES propose that Christians celebrate the birth of Christ, if not at the annual celestial turning point from darkness into light? Or perhaps we will soon hear that he considers Christ, too, to be an allegorical figure. Is Jesus Christ’s name even mentioned anymore in Anglican church services, or have they become “inclusive”?

12 posted on 12/20/2007 5:55:50 AM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: abstracTT

cant support the rest of that nonsense tho.


13 posted on 12/20/2007 5:56:23 AM PST by abstracTT
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
The conception was on our December 25 and the birth would have been our late September/early October. Now it really is toooo sad this Archbishop does not know his Bible or history any better else he would have known what is legend and what is instruction.
14 posted on 12/20/2007 5:56:49 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

If you go to the website and read the comments, there is a good one, something like: “If the Archibishop had been there, there would have been at least one ass in the stable.”


15 posted on 12/20/2007 5:56:49 AM PST by bigcat00
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

just another drop in the erosion and attempted eradication of Christmas.


16 posted on 12/20/2007 5:57:00 AM PST by ripley
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
He said he was committed to belief in the Virgin Birth "as part of what I have inherited." But belief in the Virgin Birth should not be a "hurdle" over which new Christians had to jump before they were accepted.

He hinted that decades ago he was not "too fussed" with the literal truth of the doctrine of the Virgin Birth. But as time went on, he developed a "deeper sense" of what the Virgin Birth was all about.

This guy is a Bishop? This guy is NUTZ!


17 posted on 12/20/2007 5:58:54 AM PST by frogjerk
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To: abstracTT

http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2005/12/why_december_25.html

I can not verify it’s claims, but it is interesting...


18 posted on 12/20/2007 6:00:45 AM PST by dpa5923 (Small minds talk about people, normal minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

The Gospel accoding to Matthew is not a lightweight source.

I guess the ArchBs would dismiss Jeb Stuart’s ride around the Union Army because (of the early sources) it was mentioned in Lee’ Lieutenants by Freeman but not in the earlier source of the Rise and Fall of the Confederate States of America by Davis. It has been longer since said War than the time between Christ’s life and the completion of all four Gospels.


19 posted on 12/20/2007 6:00:59 AM PST by Monterrosa-24 (...even more American than a French bikini and a Russian AK-47.)
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To: Kolokotronis

...’limpwristed fairies prancing around in dresses and women in pantsuits with dog collars’...???


20 posted on 12/20/2007 6:01:35 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Kolokotronis

LOL K! Tell us how you really feel. ;-)


21 posted on 12/20/2007 6:01:41 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

The credibility of the CoE as a legitimate Christian church also works quite well as a legend, these days.

Good heavens, how DO idiots like this rise to such prominence?

(I initially wrote “ruse” instead of “rise.” Might’ve been better.)


22 posted on 12/20/2007 6:02:27 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

He’s crazy. I’ve got the original Frankincense container in my safe at home.


23 posted on 12/20/2007 6:03:08 AM PST by CholeraJoe (Some days it doesn't even make sense to chew through the restraints.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

The moment I saw the headline, I just knew this would be a U.K. story. How many times in the last few months have we read some stupid pronouncement from an English church official? Too many to count.


24 posted on 12/20/2007 6:03:45 AM PST by toddlintown (Five bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss..)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

This is what the bible supports. Now it doesn’t say anything about kings or such, but it’s very clear. It also talks of a violent and overt government event - the slaughter of the innocents. Being this gospel was written within the living memory of some people that went through it, it would have been pretty brazen for it to be an out and out lie.

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.”

When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:

‘AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH,
ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH;
FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER
WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.’”

Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.”

After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.

When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him.

Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.


25 posted on 12/20/2007 6:06:58 AM PST by I still care ("Remember... for it is the doom of men that they forget" - Merlin, from Excalibur)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

This is an example of why England is destroying herself.

Who put this fool in charge?


26 posted on 12/20/2007 6:09:05 AM PST by Finalapproach29er (Dems will impeach Bush in 2008; mark my words.)
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To: I still care
‘AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.’”

Take note which prophet wrote this? And further note the land was called Judah and the people Israel. So the writings of this prophet? were made one and the same of the NEW and would no longer be consider OLD, the OLD is part of Christianity. Apparently the archbishop is unlearned.

27 posted on 12/20/2007 6:11:16 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

Some spiritual leader... spoken like a man who has no faith.


28 posted on 12/20/2007 6:11:27 AM PST by CASchack
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To: bigcat00
“If the Archibishop had been there, there would have been at least one ass in the stable.”

ROTFLMAO

29 posted on 12/20/2007 6:12:42 AM PST by icwhatudo (The rino borg...is resistance futile?)
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To: Finalapproach29er
"Who put this fool in charge?"

The ABC is considered "first among equals"

Nuff said..

30 posted on 12/20/2007 6:15:25 AM PST by ken5050
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To: stuartcr

“...???”

Yup, and a Blessed Feast of the Nativity to each and every silly one of them, from the ArchDruid on down.


31 posted on 12/20/2007 6:16:50 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Huber

Anglican Ping


32 posted on 12/20/2007 6:18:40 AM PST by Fractal Trader (.)
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To: Pyro7480

“LOL K! Tell us how you really feel. ;-)”

See how astonishing this person is that he could get such a reaction out of a simple, shy and retiring wallflower like me!?


33 posted on 12/20/2007 6:19:15 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
So here you have a high ranking official in a so-called Christian religion calling Christmas a myth and then you wonder why Church attendance in England is in a freefall. Truly boggles the mind.

The Archbishop has actually read the book. Have you?

What boggles the mind is how many so-called Christians have never actually read the bible to see what it says.

34 posted on 12/20/2007 6:22:51 AM PST by mc6809e
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To: Hegemony Cricket; Oshkalaboomboom

I’m not distressed by the kitschy claymation Three Kings, though. In a Christian culture, you’d expect to find Christian art and Christian themes from top to bottom. From Bottacelli to bobble-head angels, from the Pieta to hot cross buns.


35 posted on 12/20/2007 6:26:21 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Art for Our Sake.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

While a careful reading will place them AFTER the nativity, arriving from their search when Jesus was a young boy, the fact that they are recorded in the KJB is good enough for me. That is what Christians call “faith”, and I wish somebody would expand this hedgerow bishop’s education by introducing him to it. Looks like there were some gaps when he went to seminary.


36 posted on 12/20/2007 6:29:31 AM PST by 50sDad (Liberals: Never Happy, Never Grateful, Never Right.)
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To: rightinthemiddle; Kolokotronis
"What is going on in this world?????"

1) His Lordship the Archbishop is a purse-lipped pedant and a pastoral poltroon.

2) The Telegraph enjoys giving people little shocks.

37 posted on 12/20/2007 6:32:01 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Virgo dei genitrix, quem totus non capit orbis, in tua se clausit viscera factus homo.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
So here you have a high ranking official in a so-called Christian religion calling Christmas a myth and then you wonder why Church attendance in England is in a freefall. Truly boggles the mind.

Matthew makes it clear that the Magi didn't find Jesus until quite sometime after his birth. It may have been as long as two years, given that Herod asked when they first saw the star and deduced from that that Jesus would be around 2 years old.

The text states that the star they were following "stopped over the place where the child was" and "On coming to the house they saw the child with his mother Mary" so I've got no problem with the manger scenes showing Joseph, Mary, Jesus, the shepherds but the wise men are another issue ... the shepherds showed for a bit (see Luke 2) but the "wise men" were NOT there.

As far as December 25th goes, the date wasn't settled on until well into the 3rd century and not celebrated officially in western Christianity until 336 ... when Constantine declared Christianity the religion of the empire ... so, again, no need to get your panties in a wad.

For me, December 25th is CHRISTmas .. and I will gratefully worship God for redeeming me through the incarnation ... as I try to do every other day. This particular day I will gather with family, gifts will be exchanged and a good, God blessed, time will be had by all.

Getting all wound up over what Rowan Williams has to say is, for me, running down the path of straining at gnats and swallowing camels" ...it's a distraction from who I'm really called to be.

See the tagline

38 posted on 12/20/2007 6:32:19 AM PST by tx_eggman ("Believing without loving turns the best of creeds into a weapon of oppression" Eugene Peterson)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
>>So here you have a high ranking official in a so-called Christian religion calling Christmas a myth”

It is not a “so-called” Christian religion....it is part of the body of Christ.

Not to parse words on ya, but Anglicanism is a very beautiful expression of love to the Lord.

Please don’t paint a whole Anglican Communion in a negative light based on one bad apple. This is yet one more example of progressives within the church attempting to strip away the divinity of Christ.

We all know Rowan Williams is a bleeding heart liberal....comments such as these that come from him in regular intervals do nothing more than to damage Christ’s body on earth and our ministry in HIS service.

Lets face it, remove God from society....there is no accountability, where there is no accountability, satan has his way.

39 posted on 12/20/2007 6:33:27 AM PST by servantboy777
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To: Kolokotronis
The “archbishop” is a heretic and his entire church is in heresy. Thus it should come as no surprise that he spouts heretical statements and panders to his limp wristed, lesbian dog collar wearing constituency.
40 posted on 12/20/2007 6:37:00 AM PST by OldCorps
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To: Kolokotronis

“Take it whence it comes. This man is a heretic, the ArchDruid, presiding over a group of limpwristed fairies prancing around in dresses and women in pantsuits with dog collars.”

LOL. Great Post. Sounds like something I wish I said.


41 posted on 12/20/2007 6:37:33 AM PST by ohioman
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To: mc6809e

Please expound on your great knowledge of the Holy Bible.


42 posted on 12/20/2007 6:37:42 AM PST by subterfuge (HILLARY IS: She who must NOT be Dismayed)
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To: tx_eggman
when Constantine declared Christianity the religion of the empire

Constantine declared religious tolerance. It did not declare Christianity the religion of the empire. This is a myth used well by the DaVinci code crowd.

43 posted on 12/20/2007 6:40:42 AM PST by frogjerk
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To: Kolokotronis

It is true that there are no wise men to be found in the modern Church of England....any reports to the contrary are no more than legend.


44 posted on 12/20/2007 6:41:21 AM PST by Moby Grape
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To: tx_eggman

“...deduced from that that Jesus would be around 2 years old...”

Herod made no such determination that the child would be two years old. His declaration was that all male children two AND UNDER would be destroyed. The Wise Men found Jesus in Bethlehem and there is no reason to believe that he would have stayed there for a long period of time.


45 posted on 12/20/2007 6:42:58 AM PST by Monterrosa-24 (...even more American than a French bikini and a Russian AK-47.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
The Archbishop went on to dispel other details of the Christmas story, adding that there were probably no asses or oxen in the stable.

I can hear one braying ignorantly in Canterbury Cathedral.

46 posted on 12/20/2007 6:44:14 AM PST by JCEccles
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To: abstracTT
"well, he is right about december. jesus wasnt born then, church officials way back when just took over a pagan holiday."

Actually, some theorize that it may have been just the opposite. Depends on whether Constantine or Julian the Apostate officially instituted the "Natale Solis Invictus," December 25th.

Julian's Calendar of 354 institutes a festival "N(atalis) Invicti" listed for 25 Dec. with 30 chariot races. The difficulty is that both Julian and the Calendar post-date the celebration of Christmas on this date in Rome. What we need to see, is data that clarifies whether this was a pagan reaction to Christmas (i.e. Julian trying to coopt an established Christian celebration) or vice-versa.

Others argue "of course the pagans celebrated it first, because it's the winter solstice and they *must* have celebrated it," but there's no incontrovertible written proof either way.

47 posted on 12/20/2007 6:47:31 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Virgo dei genitrix, quem totus non capit orbis, in tua se clausit viscera factus homo.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

BTW, Mssr. Archibishop, this allegedly non-Christian Mormon cultist believes implicitly the Gospel nativity narratives. It is one of the most powerful and inspiring factual events ever recorded.


48 posted on 12/20/2007 6:48:03 AM PST by JCEccles
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

He should read the book of Matthew.


49 posted on 12/20/2007 6:49:02 AM PST by HereInTheHeartland ("We have to drain the swamp" George Bush, September 2001)
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To: tx_eggman
I think you are as close to being correct as we in these flesh bodies can get to being regarding Christmas.

There are some other aspects like looking through a prism say ... Is not December 25 most usually the shortest day of our year... meaning least amount of ‘sun’ light. Well another Scripture says the heavenly lights were to be used as signs, and for the Christian what sign is it to them to know the giver of life eternal would come to be with them in flesh on the shortest day of ‘sunlight’ in a year.

More than that also demonstrates when ‘life’ begins... at conception. Now I also know that our calendar is not the same calendar used from the ‘beginning’, but there is the shortest day of the year every year, so not even calendar makers can remove what that day symbolizes.

50 posted on 12/20/2007 6:53:53 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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