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Boeing Signs $1B Outsourcing Agreement With India
AHN ^ | December 21, 2007 | Mayur Pahilajani

Posted on 12/22/2007 10:48:10 PM PST by nwrep

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To: SatinDoll
"India does not have the same kind of value system we have in the U.S.... Americans are seen as having deep pockets. How foolish, to move business there."

Wait a minute... are you actually suggesting that, in contrast to the rest of the world, Americans are not overlawyered bottom-feeders quick to sue to cash in on the slightest corporate misdeed? Senator Edwards, we're flattered by your presence, but should you really be wasting time posting here when you've got campaigning to do in Iowa?

51 posted on 12/23/2007 10:28:59 AM PST by Fabozz
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To: nwrep

I wasn’t laughing at the arrangement but rather, at the insistance that I accept it as “normal”.


52 posted on 12/23/2007 10:36:25 AM PST by Psycho_Bunny (Islam is the E-Ticket ride at Nutsberry Farm)
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To: Psycho_Bunny

ok, got it. Sorry I misunderstood.


53 posted on 12/23/2007 10:40:32 AM PST by nwrep
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To: nwrep

I know outsourcing is a bad word around here, but we want to tie the Indians to ourselves as closely as possible. They are going to be an industrial and military powerhouse that will eventually eclipse the Chinese, IMHO. We want to have them on our side.

We drove them into the waiting arms of the Soviets over nuclear reactors back in the 70s. We don’t want to do that again.


54 posted on 12/23/2007 10:43:02 AM PST by gridlock ("I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- J. Wellington Wimpy)
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To: grey_whiskers
Please remind me...was it cyanide (CN-, triple bond) or methyl isocyanate (H3C-N=C=O)?

Can't remember, just that it was a hazardous cyano compound ("cyanide" probably wasn't right). Looking up... yep, methyl isocyanate.

Wow, I just found something out. They turned off the alarm siren so as not to worry people, thus people woke up later in a cloud of the stuff.

55 posted on 12/23/2007 10:43:42 AM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: Psycho_Bunny; nwrep

Actually,that’s what most nations consider it to be.If you want to sell arms to a nation with money to burn,you’ve got to be flexible.Samsung is assembling GE’s engines for the F-15 fighters that South Korea recently purchased,while US companies will provide technical assistance in developing South Korea’s 5th Gen. aircraft.The number of disputes that the US is having with the likes of Norway,Great Britain,Israel etc over the Joint Strike fighter also involves related issues of workshare & technology transfer.


56 posted on 12/23/2007 10:47:10 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: SatinDoll; sukhoi-30mki; Atlantic Bridge; ByteMercenary

There was enough blame to go around at Bhopal.

The design of the plant was not faulty. It was a carbon copy of the plant in West Virginia that is still operating, if I am not mistaken. The problem was Union Carbide thought they could just drop a working design into India and expect it to work.

One of the things that made sense to the American operators but did not to the Indian operators was the concept of redundant safties. As various safety systems failed in Bhopal, the operators were lax on making repairs. Union Carbide failed to realize this or correct the problem. The assumptions in the US design was that failures would be corrected promptly, so plant operation could continue while one or two of the redundant systems were off-line.

This turned out to be an incorrect assumption. The fault lies on both sides because the Indian operators did not buy into the American program of preventive maintenance and maintaining all systems in functional status, and the Americans did not monitor the plant closely enough or put into place programs that would have suspended operation of the plant when things got too dangerous.


57 posted on 12/23/2007 10:54:45 AM PST by gridlock ("I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- J. Wellington Wimpy)
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To: grey_whiskers

It was methyl isocyanate.


58 posted on 12/23/2007 10:55:43 AM PST by gridlock ("I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- J. Wellington Wimpy)
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To: nwrep

Mistake, plain and simple.

India only knows quantity-

They don’t get the concept of QUALITY


59 posted on 12/23/2007 10:59:08 AM PST by ridesthemiles
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To: calvo
Yeah, it will be great when you and your kids and grandkids are working for 33 cents an hour. Won’t that be wonderful?

Typical Freeper response: Well, if they can't get a job, they can just start a million dollar business from scratch! Working for yourself if the best thing ever!

60 posted on 12/23/2007 11:01:06 AM PST by IDontLikeToPayTaxes
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To: randog

All that adamantly staying onshore does is put US companies out of business when they can’t compete with those who do go to the best value in labor.
I worked for a company that “went Indian”. True, they work for less. We did a productivity study, and found out that 1 American engineer produced the work of 20 of our Indian staff, but since the Indians were paid 1/20 of the American worker, it was a wash. But factoring in the re-work the Americans had to do for the shoddy Indian work, we found it was cheaper to have “spoiled Americans” doing the work. Unfortunately, our new Indian VP saw it otherwise.

You have explained the problem and results in a nutshell.
Congratulations.....

My neighbor needed a replacement window for his semi truck cab. The truck warehouse and the glass warehouse are both employing (illegal) Mexicans because they are cheap.

It took 3 attempts to get the correct window. That meant that the American desk help was on the phone for a number of calls with the warehouses, shipments were made 3 times with the wrong glass inside the boxes, and the final one was checked by 3 different people who could read and write English before it finally was sent the 3rd time by OVERNIGHT FED EX, which cost more than the original window. Someone explain to me how this is efficient and makes the truck company any money.
(BTW) He had to replace the window because 3 thugs tried to get into his truck when he was sleeping at Stockton Calif truck stop. They were armed. He had only a length of pipe. Want to guess if he is NOW aremed when in the truck??????


61 posted on 12/23/2007 11:06:09 AM PST by ridesthemiles
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To: rbg81

This is not commercial work, this is defense work—which is supposed to be done by US citizens. We will rue the day if we ever have to go to war against China and our supply lines stretch all the way to India. Free traders love to worship the almighty dollar, but there are real consequences to going cheap on national security. The problem with many Americans is lack of foresight: if you don’t see it happening right now, we dismiss the possibility. Unfortunately, we will likely learn that less too late and find out that the “bargain” we thought we got was prohibitively expensive.

I remember learning when I was a kid that the only reason the USA could fight a war on 2 large fronts- Europe and the Pacific was because we had out own ore mines, our own steel mills, and our own aircraft and ship building companies. Otherwise, we never could have beaten Hitler or Hirohito.


62 posted on 12/23/2007 11:08:32 AM PST by ridesthemiles
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To: hedgetrimmer

Right, so when Saudi Arabia invests in Citibank, people with Mastercards are now funding terrorism and Islamic monarchies.”

Probably so.


63 posted on 12/23/2007 11:10:18 AM PST by ridesthemiles
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To: grey_whiskers

Thanks for sharing your photo. Perhaps you should shave next time.


64 posted on 12/23/2007 11:46:14 AM PST by verity ("Lord, what fools these mortals be!")
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To: verity
Thanks for sharing your photo. Perhaps you should shave next time.

Which end?

I apologize.

I was just going to post a "My ass, Bob!" (quoting Dave Barry) when I remembered the photo.

Only *After* hitting the send button did it occur to me that it might be offensive.

Cheers!

65 posted on 12/23/2007 11:53:47 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: ridesthemiles

You would NEVER learn that lesson today. Instead, you might learn that our strength is due to:
1. Free trade
2. Diversity
3. Our ability to outsource as much as possible
4. Our willingness to share our “great ideas” with the world (this last is actually from the Boeing Dreamliner commercial)
5. Our environmental regulations


66 posted on 12/23/2007 12:01:21 PM PST by rbg81 (DRAIN THE SWAMP!!)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

You’re just not getting it, are you?


67 posted on 12/23/2007 12:21:42 PM PST by Psycho_Bunny (Islam is the E-Ticket ride at Nutsberry Farm)
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To: ridesthemiles
They don’t get the concept of QUALITY

Quite true. Apart from Americans and Japanese, few countries understand the concept of quality. India has a lot to learn from the US regarding this.

68 posted on 12/23/2007 12:41:47 PM PST by nwrep
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To: Paleo Conservative

Good luck fighting against the populists here. I’m sure they’re good people, but they seem incapable of understanding business or economics.


69 posted on 12/23/2007 12:46:50 PM PST by Young Scholar
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To: Gondring
...sell products that are far more expensive than competitors' just because Indians are willing to get educated and work for less than spoiled Americans.

Allow me to ReWrite™ that...

...sell products that are far more expensive than competitors' just because Indians are willingable to get educated and work for less than spoiled Americans because of onerous union and minimum wage rules that make it impossible for American companies and workers to compete on the basis of cost.

70 posted on 12/23/2007 12:48:54 PM PST by steveegg (I am John Doe, and a monthly donor)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
At the time of the Bophpal disaster the same plant existed in Institute WV. It operated for years without a problem. I assume something like it still does, though the Union Carbide agricultural chemicals unit has long since been sold to other chemical companies. (I think Bayer owns it now.)
71 posted on 12/23/2007 12:50:32 PM PST by Reily
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To: grey_whiskers; antiRepublicrat; gridlock
Please remind me...was it cyanide (CN-, triple bond) or methyl isocyanate (H3C-N=C=O)?

Although it was predominantly MIC, it has been hypothesized that phosgene and hydrogen cyanide were also released because of the conditions/reactions that led to the release.

72 posted on 12/23/2007 12:56:08 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Gondring
Although it was predominantly MIC, it has been hypothesized that phosgene and hydrogen cyanide were also released because of the conditions/reactions that led to the release.

Phosgene? Great, WWI chemical weapons.

73 posted on 12/23/2007 1:01:03 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: gridlock

Agree there. But remember “operators” includes the local Indian management that didn’t care at all about safety.

The local management should have been hung out to dry as they were directly, criminally responsible.

American management should be held for their failure to properly supervise the locals, and they have already paid millions for that.


74 posted on 12/23/2007 1:06:14 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat

I’m assuming those who suggest this are saying the water was chlorinated.


75 posted on 12/23/2007 1:07:31 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: steveegg
because of onerous union and minimum wage rules that make it impossible for American companies and workers to compete

That's a large part of it.

Of course, it broadens out even more, into the macro-scale idea of how we borrow money from China to give it away to other countries (e.g., tsunami relief)...that is, we puff up ourselves via debt.

Even without unions, I expect many Americans would have the idea they should be paid more than an Indian for any given unit of work.

76 posted on 12/23/2007 1:09:08 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Gondring
Yes, it does...and it will continue until Americans realize that they can't expect to be paid way far above global market wages.

This is exactly what globalization is about. LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD and the only way to do that is bring down the life-styles of Americans. I saw an article on FR that claimed in China they paid something like .36 cents an hour for their slave labor. We have a long way to drop and obviously equalization has not taken place yet.

77 posted on 12/23/2007 1:09:09 PM PST by Snoopers-868th
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To: nwrep
This does it!

I'm never gonna buy a Boeing F-18 Super Hornet, ever!..........and I'm gonna urge my friends and family to do the same.

My boycott list grows longer every day.

Leni

78 posted on 12/23/2007 1:12:01 PM PST by MinuteGal (Three Cheers for the FRed, White and Blue !!!)
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To: gridlock
We drove them into the waiting arms of the Soviets over nuclear reactors back in the 70s. We don’t want to do that again.

I'm glad someone around here remembers that lesson!

79 posted on 12/23/2007 1:15:39 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: TalBlack
If Americans have to tighten their belts and work harder, fine.

That right there is my point.

Wishing we were alone in the world, where consumers around the world had to buy our products at any price we set, isn't going to make it reality.

So we have to face reality.

80 posted on 12/23/2007 1:19:03 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: sukhoi-30mki; SatinDoll
Care to substantiate the claim that somebody left a valve opened???

Speculating what SatinDoll was getting at, I believe the "left a valve open" was shorthand for the idea that it was human error. Slip-blind water isolation plates that could have prevented the problem were not not used--evidently weren't on the checklist. This isn't a design problem, but an operational problem. Likewise, the inoperative alarms and other equipment.

The other point that has been made is that the plant's original design had been changed by the Indian engineers to make use of what was available indiginously and more cheaply (e.g., hydraulic, rather than electronic, instrumentation).

It does seem that there was blame to go around, including a large part to the Indian side of things.

81 posted on 12/23/2007 1:27:28 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Snoopers-868th; steveegg; orinoco; TalBlack; calvo; pissant; phantomworker; Paleo Conservative; ...
This is exactly what globalization is about. LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD and the only way to do that is bring down the life-styles of Americans.

Or, Americans keep themselves competitive by being superior in some way that justifies the difference... Or we convince the whole GLOBE not to buy from the lowest bidder (or lowest safety/environmental/rights standards [e.g., China])... Or be the ones who can still make money while the wages are low--the owners...

But the globalization genie is out of the bottle, and protectionism isn't going to stop it. Typical protectionism can't stop Germans from buying where they get the best deal, even if it hampers Americans from doing so. "Buying American," just to do so, doesn't really help. TANSTAAFL!

If globalization/equalization continues, and Americans can't provide a good argument why they should be paid so much more than other workers, then the only way I see Americans maintaining their current standards of wealth is to forget jobs. Wages will be minimal. Americans must be the owners, getting a profit by using low-wage workers...and that's what the CEOs, etc., are doing now.

82 posted on 12/23/2007 1:47:48 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: antiRepublicrat
American management should be held for their failure to properly supervise the locals, and they have already paid millions for that.

You can't just plunk a facility as dangerous as the Bhopal plant in a foreign country and assume things will work out. The oversight should have been much, much more stringent.

To Union Carbide's credit, they built all of the right equipment. They just didn't do anything about it when it was not operated or maintained properly.

83 posted on 12/23/2007 1:49:13 PM PST by gridlock ("I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- J. Wellington Wimpy)
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To: MinuteGal

I take it you’ll be in the market for an F-22 :)


84 posted on 12/23/2007 1:54:41 PM PST by steveegg (I am John Doe, and a monthly donor)
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To: Psycho_Bunny

I’m with you, Psycho: anything military related should be made in the U.S.A.


85 posted on 12/23/2007 2:50:51 PM PST by SatinDoll
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To: antiRepublicrat

You are making my statement. It is because of a lack of regulation, of safety mindedness, and the fact nothing gets done in India without bribes that makes the business environment in the subcontinent so attractive to U.S. businesses. They would like the U.S. to be that way.

On a visit to India I witnessed a child crushed by a panicked elephant. A tragedy. But people there ignored that little girl’s body lying in the dust. When I started yelling, someone came over and told me to shut up, that the child was “dalit”. They just left her body there, and all because she was an untouchable. That was in 1979. Maybe things have changed dramatically since then, and I, for one, certainly hope so.

I’ve worked in quality related positions in the Nuclear Power Industry. Many of my coworkers have been Indian. Most have no desire to go back to India. I know of no one, not myself nor any of the Indians I worked with who would have accepted lax safety regs or procedures. But if your people, your employees don’t live and breathe safety, all the laws in the world that punish businesses, won’t keep the public safe.


86 posted on 12/23/2007 3:05:24 PM PST by SatinDoll
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To: Gondring

Sounds like the auto industry: was it?


87 posted on 12/23/2007 3:07:23 PM PST by SatinDoll
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To: grey_whiskers

>>
...the governments in the East insist on being given the latest technology...as a “condition” of opening up their markets...in the future, after...knowledge has been taken...the factories and other offshore assets will be...nationalized...
>>

You got that right.


88 posted on 12/23/2007 3:12:29 PM PST by SatinDoll
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To: gridlock

Thank you for your information. Sounds exactly right. I never said Union Carbide was without fault, only that U.S. businesses move to a foreign nation and expect everything to function the same over there as things function here at home.

People everywhere are not the same nor do they share the same values.


89 posted on 12/23/2007 3:16:45 PM PST by SatinDoll
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To: ridesthemiles

>>
...the only reason the USA could fight a war on 2 large fronts...was because we had out own ore mines, our own steel mills, and our own aircraft and ship building companies...
>>

Yep. Yet somehow the lessons of history just aren’t being taught in school anymore. Political correctness is deemed more important.


90 posted on 12/23/2007 3:20:08 PM PST by SatinDoll
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To: Gondring

Americans have to get a higher wage because of the government requirements on them. They need health, life, auto insurance etc. they pay into unemployment compensation, they pay high taxes to pay for infrastructure and on and on. Do your homework! Third world countries do not have these requirements. That’s why they can work cheaper. Putting it simply we have much higher overhead here in America and need a higher wage to pay for it. That’s why the competition is unfair and the corporations are taking advantage of this.


91 posted on 12/23/2007 4:24:27 PM PST by orinoco
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To: Gondring
If globalization/equalization continues, and Americans can't provide a good argument why they should be paid so much more than other workers, then the only way I see Americans maintaining their current standards of wealth is to forget jobs. Wages will be minimal. Americans must be the owners, getting a profit by using low-wage workers...and that's what the CEOs, etc., are doing now.

CEO's and globalists apparently want to have it both ways at the expense of working productive American people. Most productive Americans do not live nor do they want to live like those working in third world countries and the cost of living is not even comparable. These are exactly the reason that the Democrats WILL take power and we will become a socialist country. Hope all the globalists and cheap labor CEO's are happy destroying the American Dream for common man, not to mention the Republican Party who fails to address the average working American. What percentage of the population do you consider to be CEO's? This is ridiculous. Who is going to buy these products made by cheap wages?

92 posted on 12/23/2007 4:52:32 PM PST by Snoopers-868th
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To: Gondring

“and it will continue until Americans realize that they can’t expect to be paid way far above global market wages.”

Wrong! When the rest of the world lives at our standard then can you say such a thing.


93 posted on 12/23/2007 6:53:22 PM PST by CodeToad
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To: bamahead

“I hope Boeing has some good QC procedures in place, for their own sake.”

They don’t. They have that silly “Six Sigma Black Belt” superficial fluff for quality control.


94 posted on 12/23/2007 6:55:25 PM PST by CodeToad
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To: Gondring

NO cheers, unfortunately.

...oh, and Merry Christmas.

95 posted on 12/23/2007 9:36:34 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Gondring

bump with no comment.


96 posted on 12/23/2007 9:48:35 PM PST by Ciexyz
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To: Gondring

spoken like someone that has no clue about the numbers.

i have been forced to run operations using offshore labor. show me how your college educated kid would ever compete against similar education & experience.. while only being paid $350-500 per month (60 hour weeks normal). good luck. hey, maybe he/she could re-train into another field...

America gets nothing by shipping our goods to countries where the median income is less then $8000/yr. the only plus comes to the small group of large investors that may yield a better dividend from saved wages. meanwhile, Americans lose their local jobs.. further reducing the supply of jobs in the US... while experiencing an influx of labor from south of the border. that all sums up to massive downward pressure on the wages of the lower and middle classes. meanwhile, we also lose the next generation of products and ideas... as they usually come from those working on the current generation

i have done every job from construction, restaurants, stock boy, parts runner, gas station attendant, software developer, architect, to CTO. anytime i hear some globalist going on about how we need to have free trade and import labor and offshore jobs.. because these are jobs Americans do not want to do... it just pisses me off. it’s a spit in the face of true Americans that have no problem rolling up their sleeves to get the job done.

and yes.. normally these globalists have never had to rely on the wages from an honest days manual labor

all America would have to do to resolve these issues would be to:
1) heavily fine any organization employing illegals (it is the law after all)
2) add tariffs to imported goods which would allow Americans to compete


97 posted on 12/24/2007 12:25:06 AM PST by sten
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To: gridlock; Gondring

Nobody is denying that an human element would have played a role in the accident.The issue here is whether,it is universal of companies in India(or for that matter, elsewhere).UC,Bhopal was not the first industrial/chemical plant in India-several such facilities have been built through out India by Indian,Western & Japanese companies/with assistance.How good/bad is the safety record for those????It’s directly related to the ivestment in proper training & safety procedures.


98 posted on 12/24/2007 2:22:48 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Psycho_Bunny

Actually,I think I am accepting reality as it is.Little you or I can do about it.


99 posted on 12/24/2007 2:23:45 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sten

Well said.


100 posted on 12/24/2007 5:39:44 AM PST by phantomworker (If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.)
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