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Death with Dignity?
Urban Tulsa Weekly ^ | 12/19/07 | Brian Ervin

Posted on 12/28/2007 12:12:40 PM PST by wagglebee

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To: OKIEDOC

Just for the sake of curiosity...

Suicide takes the choice of the time of death away from God, or, for other reasons, is a horrible sin. Murder of another individual is the same, usurps God’s power over lives. So is murder also a mortal sin? Because I really don’t think that anyone who has killed another is eternally damned. So it seems that the main issue at stake here must be the fact that the individual can’t be absolved of his sin before he dies. Correct?

No criticism, just trying to understand other Christian beliefs I haven’t properly learned.


61 posted on 12/29/2007 7:12:37 AM PST by onja ("The government of England is a limited mockery.") (France was a complete mockery.)
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To: onja
I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I myself am convinced that physician-assisted suicide destroys medical ethics in the same way abortion does. It turns the healer into a killer for hire, and thus no different ethically from a witch-doctor who will provide potions for healing the body or for spreading plagues, for seducing your neighbor's spouse or for winning at the lottery--- for anything at all, if the price is right.

We neeed to know that our doctors are committed to health: and nobody is healthier dead.

The availability of death-as-a-treatment (and a cheap one, at that) disastrously reduces our motivation to seek treatment for depression and effective pain relief. Just as the availability of abortion STOPPED all research for a cure for Tay-Sachs, the available of prescription for a lethal dose of barbiturates will lessen institutional support for effective and humane palliative care.

Insurers, state healthcare systems and HMO's would probably agree that for cheap and for permanent, nothing beats death.

62 posted on 12/29/2007 8:19:02 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: gracesdad

This forum is pro-life. What are you?


63 posted on 12/29/2007 8:32:22 AM PST by floriduh voter (TERRI'S DAY MARCH 31, 2008 Remember Terri's hopes & fears, not the cowards.)
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To: wagglebee

It’s murder if the patient/victim is non-consenting. If adding insult to injury, their organs are harvested, it is a double crime.


64 posted on 12/29/2007 8:33:59 AM PST by floriduh voter (TERRI'S DAY MARCH 31, 2008 Remember Terri's hopes & fears, not the cowards.)
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To: wagglebee
What exactly does "euthanasia operation" mean? Are they calling euthanasia a medical procedure now? If so, they are equating it with gallbladder surgery or an appendectomy. If it is listed as a medical procedure, it doesn't seem so much like murder to the family or guardian?

It's murder, not an operation.

65 posted on 12/29/2007 8:36:33 AM PST by floriduh voter (TERRI'S DAY MARCH 31, 2008 Remember Terri's hopes & fears, not the cowards.)
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To: napscoordinator
There is no medical reason for intractable pain in terminal cancer patients. This was true even 30 years ago, and even moreso today; although one doctor told me, "I have never seen intractable pain; but I have seen intractable doctors and nurses."

The Oregon record over the past 10 years shows that virtually nobody who chose suicide, chose it because of pain. It would have been "absolutely" nobody, if they had gotten the appropriate narcotic and analgesic medication.

You might want to look at the argument that the suicide option works against palliative care and these insights by an experienced medical practitioner as well. Of the many arguments that have been made in favor of suicide, the one that is provably false is the one about pain in terminal cases.

66 posted on 12/29/2007 8:40:27 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: wagglebee

There are dancers in here, dancing around with the New Testament. Thou Shalt Not Kill is a Commandment from the Old Testament. That means suicide too.


67 posted on 12/29/2007 8:41:25 AM PST by floriduh voter (TERRI'S DAY MARCH 31, 2008 Remember Terri's hopes & fears, not the cowards.)
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To: MrEdd
"Would those who see this as suicide = hell determine that a tattoo will also send one strait to hell by this verse?"

No. In order to go to hell you have to be guilty of a mortal sin. Mortal sin requires

The first item is the only one we can always know for sure.

The other two are things we can sometimes know (for instance, you can know that a person was mentally retarded) and sometimes things we can never know (the person's interior state of mind.)

Thus we can judge that suicide is seriously wrong in an objective sense, but only God can know the heart and judge the soul.

For which I am grateful.

Oh. And getting a tattoo is not ordinarily "grave matter."

68 posted on 12/29/2007 8:52:16 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: cherry; gracesdad
Both you and your mothr must have suffered a great deal. You have aroused my sympathy and, frankly, my anger (at the hospice) as well. Stingy with the meds? Outrageous.

My father was in home hospice care for 27 months and died without pain, in is own bed, with his own family around. The home hospice workers (from the local medical center) were excellent; they promptly and willingly supplied all the meds he needed to be pain-free and comfortable.

I think what my dear father received is what everyone deserves.

69 posted on 12/29/2007 8:59:18 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: William Terrell
Isn't it enough that the Bible forbids murder? Does it have to specify:

for each and every sub-category of murder to be understood as forbidden?

70 posted on 12/29/2007 9:14:18 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: onja
Murder is a mortal sin (if you did it knowingly and intentionally) but mortal sin is not unforgivable. King David and Saul of Tarsus and others were guilty of murder, but repented from the heart and appealed to God's mercy and were forgiven.

Dying with an unrepented mortal sin on your soul -- that's where you're in an eternally horrible, truly damnable situation.

71 posted on 12/29/2007 9:22:42 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

So if a man commits perjury, (which I understand is another mortal sin) or any other mortal sin, without repenting in time, he would be refused salvation? Interesting. Well, thanks for the lesson.

And yeah, while in principle I halfheartedly support (more of an ambivalence) voluntary euthanasia, I do not think it is a choice anyone should make and the consequences of legalizing it are hard to determine, very possibly very unfortunate.

Thanks for the discussion, nice to have a informative, civil conversation.


72 posted on 12/29/2007 11:14:38 AM PST by onja ("The government of England is a limited mockery.") (France was a complete mockery.)
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To: floriduh voter

I’m pro the government staying out of my life as much as possible. What about you?


73 posted on 12/29/2007 12:27:45 PM PST by gracesdad
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To: gracesdad
If somebody is TRYING TO KILL ME, I'd like our leaders to PROTECT ME as per their Oath of Office and The Constitution.

How about you?

74 posted on 12/29/2007 3:04:13 PM PST by floriduh voter (TERRI'S DAY MARCH 31, 2008 Remember Terri's hopes & fears, not the cowards.)
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To: cherry; gracesdad

Hospice was a nightmare when my stepfather was dying. They lied to my mother before he was admitted and then denied him food, water and everything but pain medications after he was admittted. My mother is still in agony over his death and the way it happened almost 2 yeears after the fact.
I would never give a cent to hospice and would never commend any loved one to their care.


75 posted on 12/29/2007 3:14:11 PM PST by kalee
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To: cherry

Cherry,
What is excessive antibiotic theerapy? I have chronic kidney infections and I can’t imagine lying in a bed with that terrible pain while being denied medications I need to clear it.
To me hydration, nutrition and medications for pain and infection are essentials even for those who are dying.


76 posted on 12/29/2007 3:17:55 PM PST by kalee
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To: floriduh voter

Assisted suicide in Oregon is NOT some mysterious person trying to kill you. It’s you making your own rational decision within a certain framework of guidelines. I don’t WANT my leaders “protecting” me from that.

Where exactly does the Constitution say our leaders should make sure we die in agony or without a shred of dignity?


77 posted on 12/29/2007 3:25:04 PM PST by gracesdad
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To: kalee

I’m sorry about your stepfather’s nightmare, but the main hospice here is NOTHING like the one he went to.


78 posted on 12/29/2007 3:25:49 PM PST by gracesdad
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To: gracesdad

buzz words for death cultists...


79 posted on 12/29/2007 3:46:09 PM PST by floriduh voter (TERRI'S DAY MARCH 31, 2008 Remember Terri's hopes & fears, not the cowards.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
With murder, you take away another's life against their will and over their objections by violence and with their loss and your gain in mind.

80 posted on 12/29/2007 4:21:25 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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