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Did Giuliani Really Clean Up Times Square?
AP via CBS News ^ | Dec. 28, 2007 | Staff

Posted on 12/28/2007 4:13:08 PM PST by jdm

Times Square is crammed with tourists, and not just for New Year's Eve. These days, they're eager to gawk at the glittering lights of Broadway and visit attractions like Madame Tussauds Wax Museum and the MTV studios.

But 15 years ago, the place was considered a cesspool, overrun with crime and home to sex shops and peep shows. Drug addicts shot up on the street. Locals avoided the neighborhood.

The man who has taken the credit for revitalizing Times Square is GOP presidential hopeful and former Mayor Rudy Giuliani. He has made Times Square a symbol for how he tamed the evils of an out-of-control city and turned it into a tourist-friendly destination.

"It's called getting things done," he said at a fundraiser this year.

It's not that clear-cut, a closer examination of the Times Square renaissance shows.

While even his critics will say Giuliani deserves praise for his part in redevelopment of the area, the finished product was the culmination of decades of work that came before he was elected, according to lawmakers and urban planners.

"State agencies had plans in place to develop 42nd Street well before Giuliani," said Ethel Sheffer, an urban planning expert who led a quality-of-life study on Times Square during the redevelopment. Any large-scale redevelopment "takes a long time to unfold," she said.

The Times Square plan was in the works during the 1980s, when state officials and then-Mayor Ed Koch used eminent domain to condemn and take control of decrepit buildings.

But there was no legal way to control businesses until the City Council initiated a study during the administration of David Dinkins, who preceded Giuliani as mayor, that would allow them to pass rezoning laws if they could prove sex businesses were harming residential areas.

Walter McCaffrey, a former City Council member, said the idea to rezone wasn't even related to Times Square at first. It started with a neighborhood in Queens near the Queensboro Bridge that had suffered when topless bars and porn shops moved in. After the study, the City Council drew up stricter zoning laws that prohibited sex-oriented theaters, bookstores, massage parlors and dance clubs from operating within 500 feet of homes, houses of worship, schools or one another.

The law passed in 1995 - about two years after Giuliani took office.

By this time, the area was already changing, urban planning experts say. The paced quickened after the legal challenges to the zoning laws were defeated and Giuliani bore down.

Says Charles Millard, a former City Councilman and head of the city's Economic Development Corp: "I drafted the law that allowed us to do this constitutionally when David Dinkins was mayor, but until Rudy became mayor and pushed it through his planning commission, and pushed it through the city, not a thing had happened."

Others say Giuliani was in the right place at the right time, as the economy boomed in the 1990s and shifted toward tourism, real estate and Wall Street. The proliferation of Internet porn also made many sex shops obsolete.

"It was kind of like a perfect storm for him," said Arturo Ignacio Sanchez, a City and Regional Planning professor at Cornell University. The process started with Koch, picked up speed under Dinkins and really accelerated under Giuliani, he said, adding: "It fast forwards with warp speed under Bloomberg, and you have the city today."

Times Square has always lived a double life - even a century ago the 10-block stretch of busy Midtown streets was home to upscale splendor as well as hidden brothels and fetid hotels. With the invention of neon and the rise of Broadway shows, the area slowly became the entertainment center of the city.

But by the time Giuliani took office, the area had fallen into decline. In 1993, nearly 4,000 incidents of crime were reported in the area, according to the Times Square Alliance, a business group.

Part of the revival was the arrival of upscale hotels, theme stores and restaurants - businesses that Giuliani helped lure with a private-public team of developers.

Disney received a low-interest loan from the city to give a facelift to the New Amsterdam Theater on 42nd Street, considered by some to be the crown jewel of the new Times Square. The renovated theater soon drew in other businesses, such as MTV, ESPN and other media companies.

Giuliani talks on the campaign trail about the eradication of porn shops from Times Square and about declining crime rates during his tenure.

"It didn't happen by accident, it didn't happen by wishing they went away," Giuliani said in a speech in October. "It happened based on a very well-organized campaign, a study demonstrating the impact of pornography on neighborhoods, an intense battle in court that nobody thought we would win, and we won. And most importantly, the pornographers lost and they were chased out of Times Square."

There are still some sex shops in Times Square, but the majority of them disappeared long ago. Some simply relocated.

Former City Councilman Thomas Duane was among the few who voted against the rezoning laws in the 1990s, in part because he was not eager to see the sex shops simply switch neighborhoods.

"He didn't get rid of them from New York City, he dispersed them from Times Square, mostly to the industrial waterfront areas of the city," Duane said of Giuliani.

"And as Manhattan became a more attractive place to live, people started moving into those communities and now the same problem exists," he said. "It just doesn't exist much where the tourists go."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: giuliani; nyc; redevelopment; rudy; timessquare
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Rudy Giuliani likes to take credit for the transformation of the city's Times Square.
But some say the cleanup was the result of years of urban planning.

1 posted on 12/28/2007 4:13:10 PM PST by jdm
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To: jdm

This guy makes his living in Times Square


2 posted on 12/28/2007 4:21:12 PM PST by elizabetty ("Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm." .Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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To: jdm

Bookmark. I’m interested in what knowledgeable FReepers have to say. (I don’t know enough to comment on this.)


3 posted on 12/28/2007 4:21:55 PM PST by gitmo (From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.)
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To: jdm

Look, I’m a Thompson/Hunter kind of guy, but give credit where credit is due. I saw first hand the turnaround in NYC under Rudy’s watch. I worked and went to school there and the transformation is remarkable.


4 posted on 12/28/2007 4:25:25 PM PST by MattinNJ (I'm pulling for Fred Thompson and Duncan Hunter-...but I'd vote for Rudy against Hillary)
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To: gitmo
First a disclaimer.... Rudy is NOT my choice. He's not even 2nd 3rd or 4th...

Take it from someone who knows and lived through it... Rudy deserves most of the credit, along with Bratton... He got rid of squeegee men, folks who committ smaller crimes, cleaned up the city, REFUSED to even meet that scumbag charlatan Sharpton - for 8 years...

Rudy was fantastic for NYC - a Godsend.M

This is nothing more than a hit piece on Rudy, and no doubt, his detractors will jump all over this... FR has become pathetic....

Blast Rudy for other things, but don't pile on a bunch of leftist lies.

5 posted on 12/28/2007 4:29:42 PM PST by NYC Republican
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To: jdm
Anyone who doesn't give Giuliani great credit for cleaning up the Dinkens Disaster is just blowing smoke. The cleanup was not the result of years of urban planning, and it wasn't just in Times Square. Maybe he is a cross-dressing, gun-grabbing, pro abortionist, but he did a hell of a job for NYC.

ML/NJ

6 posted on 12/28/2007 4:30:09 PM PST by ml/nj
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To: elizabetty

So, what’s your point? Or are you just being ignorant, taking things out of context?


7 posted on 12/28/2007 4:30:44 PM PST by NYC Republican
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To: NYC Republican

Thanks. :-)


8 posted on 12/28/2007 4:33:38 PM PST by gitmo (From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.)
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To: ml/nj
...years of urban planning

That's the problem. The bureaucrats will spend YEARS studying the problems and avoiding any decisions that might OFFEND someone.

Rudy came in as said "Get it done!". And it was. My support for Rudy is largely based on his refusal to put up with nonsense from public unions and bureaucracies.

9 posted on 12/28/2007 4:37:46 PM PST by Timeout (I hate MediaCrats! ......and trial lawyers.)
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To: NYC Republican
“First a disclaimer.... Rudy is NOT my choice. He’s not even 2nd 3rd or 4th...”
“Rudy was fantastic for NYC - a Godsend.M”

Dittos!

Dinkins flatly sucked!

One big example —— the Squeegee guys!

Under Dinkins, one night I was driving through NYC and the Squeegee guys came out when I was stopped at a traffic light. One guy was carrying a tire iron.....so I promptly ran the friggin light and was prepared to tell NYPD why the Hell I ran the light.

Rudy got rid of the Squeegee guys!!!!!

10 posted on 12/28/2007 4:38:32 PM PST by TRY ONE (NUKE the unborn gay whales!)
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To: jdm

When CBS and AP get together you know the lib slimeliars are at it again. This peiece is a smear and nothing else. They are still afraid of Rudy.


11 posted on 12/28/2007 4:40:13 PM PST by bilhosty
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To: jdm

More wishful revisionism from the Friends of David Dinkins...


12 posted on 12/28/2007 4:40:13 PM PST by jimbo123
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To: gitmo

I can tell you that folks I know, family and friends who either lived or worked in NYC or traveled there for business or shopping, theater, etc. saw a real improvement in the overall quality of life and civility in the city.

Under “General” Dinkins and Koch before him, things had gotten really, really bad and even native New Yorkers were shocked and disgusted - and that’s saying a lot.

The urban planning may have been in the works for a while but investors and tourists won’t come if they are going to be the victims of petty and not so petty crime.

What Giuliani brought to the table was zero tolerance policing. Meaning that petty thieves, panhandlers, squeegee kids (who were very aggressive panhandlers) were going to be arrested, were as before they were largely being ignored.

To his credit, he was a good mayor overall but he won’t get my vote for President. Now if he’d like to come to Baltimore and help us do something about our out of control violent crime and murder rate and get the aggressive panhandlers out of Harbor Place and other restaurant and entertainment areas…..


13 posted on 12/28/2007 4:41:19 PM PST by Caramelgal (Rely on the spirit and meaning of the teachings, not on the words or superficial interpretations)
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To: jdm
I don't like Rudy's social policies and I don't support him for President...

BUT he has single handedly transformed NYC from a cess pool of crime and anything goes attitude to one of the safest liveable big cities in the world.

sw

14 posted on 12/28/2007 4:42:16 PM PST by spectre (spectre's wife)
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To: jdm

I don’t like to quote the Village Voice but this article talks about a lot of things the Mayor did.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9835,goldstein,3394,1.html


15 posted on 12/28/2007 4:43:35 PM PST by april15Bendovr (Free Republic & Ron Paul Cult = oxymoron)
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To: MattinNJ

Agreed. Rudy accomplished a great deal as mayor of New York City—where any change is an uphill battle. That doesn’t mean he should be president but these kinds of attacks are just silly.


16 posted on 12/28/2007 4:43:48 PM PST by RedRover (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: ml/nj
NYState Gov Nelsen Rockefeller was also tough on crime. That didn't make him a conservative. He remained a life long liberal. Same goes for Rooty Giuliani. After eight years of Giuliani as Mayor of NYC, the Big Apple was still the abortion capitol of America, the highest taxed big city in America, a welfare city, with the second highest debt next to the federal government, with some of the toughest gun control laws in the nation, home to gay activism and illegal alien protection, along with being a sanctuary city.

Screw Giuliani!

17 posted on 12/28/2007 4:43:53 PM PST by Reagan Man (FUHGETTABOUTIT Rudy....... Conservatives don't vote for liberals!)
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To: jdm

All I can say is that I’ve been to Times Square before and after Giuliani and the difference is remarkable! And it wasn’t years of urban planning. It was much quicker than that.


18 posted on 12/28/2007 4:45:50 PM PST by Alissa
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To: bilhosty

Funny how the authors of the article quote Tom Duane, the openly gay councilman who fought Giuliani every step of the way in closing down the gay porn shops and peepshows.

Duane claimed that gays were being discriminated against during the peepshow crackdown because they wouldn’t have any place to go once they were shut down.

You would think Duane would be thankful that the shutdown saved thousands of lives because since his compadres weren’t able to spread AIDS anonymously once the shops were closed.


19 posted on 12/28/2007 4:46:45 PM PST by jimbo123
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To: elizabetty

That’s silly.

He ain’t nekkid.

;^)


20 posted on 12/28/2007 4:46:54 PM PST by airborne (Proud to be a conservative! Proud to support Duncan Hunter for President!)
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To: NYC Republican
I agree without reservation. I hold no brief for Rudy Guiliani insofar as his political aspirations are involved, but he made a tremendous difference in New York City's quality of life. I lived there at perhaps its nadir - the Dinkins Years - and to call New York a "cesspool" during that time might be doing an injustice to septic systems. When I returned (10 years later) the difference was not only apparent, it was staggering.

The piles of garbage at the entrance to the George Washington Bridge, once thigh-high, had been swept away. The aggressive squeegee-men and hookers at the tunnel entrances were gone. The area around Times Square and up and down 42nd Street had been magically transformed from Gomorrah back into Gotham. Graffitti, that ubiquitous sign of urban rot, was greatly subdued, if not invisible. Whatever else you might want to say about Mr. Guiliani, he deserves credit for restoring the luster to a great city that had been given over to rust and decay.

21 posted on 12/28/2007 4:47:06 PM PST by andy58-in-nh (Kill the terrorists, secure the borders, and give me back my freedom.)
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To: NYC Republican
So, what’s your point? Or are you just being ignorant, taking things out of context?

You make me remember how blessed I am to not live in New York City.
22 posted on 12/28/2007 4:47:07 PM PST by elizabetty ("Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm." .Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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To: gitmo

The deals that clean up Times Square were in the works since Koch.


23 posted on 12/28/2007 4:47:20 PM PST by durasell (!)
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To: jdm; MotleyGirl70; Cagey; Mr. Brightside; Gamecock; Rb ver. 2.0

Well, he did take care of that so-called “low fat yogurt” scam!

(Sorry, that’s all I know about Rudy and NYC).


24 posted on 12/28/2007 4:49:18 PM PST by Larry Lucido (Hunter 2008)
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To: TRY ONE; jdm

This writer forgot to add: “The Guliani era meant the end of clean windshields.”


25 posted on 12/28/2007 4:50:39 PM PST by Larry Lucido (Hunter 2008)
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To: Reagan Man

You’re the type that makes FR almost a disaster zone. I was wondering when the likes of you would join the fray.


26 posted on 12/28/2007 4:53:38 PM PST by NYC Republican
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To: Reagan Man
You have no clue how bad it was here, and how much it improved within days after Giuilani took over. You discredit yourself with trying to equate Giuliani with Rockefeller, and other negative comments. You'd better stick to Denver politics.

ML/NJ

27 posted on 12/28/2007 4:54:15 PM PST by ml/nj
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To: durasell

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE3DA1F3AF93BA3575BC0A967958260

Flashback:

Gay Candidate for City Council Says He Has AIDS Virus
By ALESSANDRA STANLEY
Published: August 8, 1991

One of two gay candidates running for a seat on the New York City Council in lower Manhattan said yesterday that he has tested positive for the virus that causes AIDS and would make that part of his campaign.

The announcement by Thomas K. Duane is believed to be the first time a candidate seeking elected office in the state, and perhaps the nation, has openly admitted being infected with the virus that causes AIDS.


28 posted on 12/28/2007 4:54:39 PM PST by jimbo123
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To: jdm

Times Square on TV looks huge. In person it looks like a gaudy little corner of lighted advertisements.

It was very disappointing.


29 posted on 12/28/2007 4:57:24 PM PST by toddlintown (Five bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss..)
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To: jdm
By this time, the area was already changing, urban planning experts say. The paced quickened after the legal challenges to the zoning laws were defeated and Giuliani bore down. [...]

In other words, Rudolph Giuliani the individual, all by himself, was not single-handedly responsible for every single positive change that happened vis-a-vis Times Square. He didn't do it with the help of zero other people in city government and bureaucracy. Some other people helped. He didn't roll up his sleeves, lift sex-shop owners over his head, carry them to the East River, and throw them in. He didn't pick up a sledgehammer and singlehandedly demolish decredpit buildings.

I'm glad we got that cleared up. That is an excellent, important, and totally fair criticism.

"He didn't get rid of them from New York City, he dispersed them from Times Square, mostly to the industrial waterfront areas of the city," Duane said of Giuliani.

Giuliani didn't conduct an extermination campaign of sex shop owners and people who frequent them. He didn't put them into concentration camps and then throw them into ovens so as to make them no longer exist. They still exist somewhere.

Another fascinating and important criticism. Clearly, if bad things still exist somewhere, then you can't give Rudy Giuliani any credit whatsoever for cleaning up Times Square.

This is a totally fair, objective, and most importantly - logical news article.

30 posted on 12/28/2007 4:57:41 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Larry Lucido
Lol.

I was reading this thread before I got your ping and laughed right away when I read it, then saw your name and saw you pinged me to it. You're too much :)

31 posted on 12/28/2007 5:05:06 PM PST by MotleyGirl70 (Dear GOP, Conservatism works every time itís tried. Sincerely, MotleyGirl70~~~Go Packers!~~~)
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To: ml/nj
Anyone who doesn't give Giuliani great credit for cleaning up the Dinkens Disaster is just blowing smoke. The cleanup was not the result of years of urban planning, and it wasn't just in Times Square. Maybe he is a cross-dressing, gun-grabbing, pro abortionist, but he did a hell of a job for NYC.

I visited NYC for the first time in 1977 with three Navy buddies. Even though we were four young men in our mid-20's, we spent our time there looking over our shoulders not feeling very safe and being told we should not have walked in areas that we did.

It was urban armpit and I avoided the place for the next 30 years.

This year, after all the talk about how things had changed, I decided to take my teen-aged daughter there for 10 days this summer.

The subways were safe and filled with normal people as was Central Park. At night, the streets were filled with people out for dinner at countless restaurants.

It was great and my daughter loved it.

I know that New York City is the city we love to hate but I would highly recommend it now for a family vacation.

32 posted on 12/28/2007 5:07:31 PM PST by Polybius
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To: ml/nj
You don’t know me and you don’t know WTF you’re talking about either. I was born and raised in NYC and still visit family and friends, from Hicksville on the Island, to Kingston upstate NY.

Rudy Giuliani is a liberal to his core, a self professed Rockefeller Republican and proud of it too!

You can take the boy outta Brooklyn, but you can’t take the Brooklyn outta this boy. I grew up with guys just like Rooty. He’ll take your taxes, take your guns and take take your babies -— laughing all the way.

Ghouliani is scum of the earth.

33 posted on 12/28/2007 5:10:55 PM PST by Reagan Man (FUHGETTABOUTIT Rudy....... Conservatives don't vote for liberals!)
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To: Reagan Man
Same goes for Rooty Giuliani.

It's Rudy, not "Rooty." I'm not a Giuliani supporter by any means but why do those who don't support him insist on mutilating his name. Is it supposed to be funny? That goes for Rudy McRomey, Ron L. Paul, Duncan Donuts and all that other nonsense when referring to candidates.

It's stupid.

34 posted on 12/28/2007 5:11:35 PM PST by MotleyGirl70 (Dear GOP, Conservatism works every time itís tried. Sincerely, MotleyGirl70~~~Go Packers!~~~)
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To: NYC Republican
Take it from someone who knows and lived through it... Rudy deserves most of the credit, along with Bratton... He got rid of squeegee men, folks who committ smaller crimes, cleaned up the city, REFUSED to even meet that scumbag charlatan Sharpton - for 8 years...

Rudy was fantastic for NYC - a Godsend.M

Absolutely agree ... lived in Fairfield County, CT (close in to NYC) during the Dinkins, and the early years of Rudy. Business took me into NYC frequently ... Dinkins was a complete no talent bust ... Guiliani was kick-butt, make it right, from the gitgo. His immediate predecessors, although aided and abetted by the liberal (read NY Times) media, were clueless in the extreme ... he (Rudy) made a significant difference.

35 posted on 12/28/2007 5:11:51 PM PST by BluH2o
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To: Dr. Frank fan
Giuliani didn't conduct an extermination campaign of sex shop owners and people who frequent them. He didn't put them into concentration camps and then throw them into ovens so as to make them no longer exist. They still exist somewhere.

Are you suggesting that he should have?
36 posted on 12/28/2007 5:13:00 PM PST by Caramelgal (Rely on the spirit and meaning of the teachings, not on the words or superficial interpretations)
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To: MotleyGirl70

Technically, its Rooty Toot!

I think its a joke for anyone on this great conservative forum to defend Giuliani.

Rooty is a low life scumbag!


37 posted on 12/28/2007 5:14:32 PM PST by Reagan Man (FUHGETTABOUTIT Rudy....... Conservatives don't vote for liberals!)
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To: jdm
Did Giuliani Really Clean Up Times Square?

Yes.

And every shithole in NYC. On the night he took office the NYPD raided a "welfare hotel" which was a crack den in my old neighborhood, which everyone avoided because of the awful crime (and this was a decent area near Grammercy). Within a month the area was completely dsafe again. I give Rudy 100% credit.

That doesn't mean I support him for the GOP nomination. I do not. But he was perhaps the best mayor in NYC history. Just can't take that away from him.

38 posted on 12/28/2007 5:17:29 PM PST by montag813
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To: jdm
The murder rate fell dramatically under Giuliani, at least a thousand people a year. Liberals say “demographics” to deny credit. It is true that murder rates fell around the nation. But where they fell around 25% nationwide, they fell by around 70% in New York. I doubt that I will support Rudy in the primary, but I don’t think we should deny him the credit he is due. Republicans can be much better mayors. Law and order can work. He had answers that worked. His predecessor, a Democrat, did not.
39 posted on 12/28/2007 5:23:12 PM PST by ChessExpert (Reagan dismantled the Russian empire of 21 conquered nations)
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To: jdm

When Guiliani was Mayor every fare beater on the subway was arrested and brought to the precinct to be fingerprinted and to be checked as to whether they had outstanding arrest warrants.. The criminals began to leave their guns and knives at home...it was too risky to carry them.

Guiliani had every welfare recipient fingerprinted. The welfare roles dropped dramatically. I think the drop was from 1,300,000 to 600,000. There were lots of double-dippers collecting welfare apparently and also a lot of working people who lied about their status.

Without Bratton though it could never have been done. Bratton made the police be more productive than they had been.


40 posted on 12/28/2007 5:23:45 PM PST by diefree
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To: gitmo
The article is fairly accurate.

The "revival" of Times Square took place over a period of more than a decade. Specifically, it began in the mid-1980s when the NYC Planning Commission formally approved the zoning changes for the "new" Times Square district. The area would have seen improvement much sooner than it did, but the stock market crash of 1987 and the real estate decline that occurred in the aftermath of the 1986 changes in the Federal tax code caused many institutional investors to scale back their exposure to new real estate projects.

The "official" start of the Times Square renaissance occurred when the first two major companies -- Disney and Bertelsmann AG -- signed deals to move into new buildings in the Times Square area. Both of these deals were signed in 1993 -- when David Dinkins was still mayor of New York City.

41 posted on 12/28/2007 5:26:56 PM PST by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: MattinNJ

Agree 100%. Rudy is not my 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice, but the whining liberals that are quoted here in this newspaper article are the same ones that were screaming bloody murder that Rudy was taking all the ‘urban charm and excitement’ out of New York, while he enforced laws, supported the police, cut crime and evicted sleaze merchants. Since it turns out people actually like a low crime city where they can take their kids, they want to claim David Dinkins wanted to do the same thing if he hadn’t been chased out of office for doing nothing.

Rudy isn’t what America needs, but he is just about the best that the Big Apple has to offer.


42 posted on 12/28/2007 5:33:24 PM PST by CaptainMorgantown
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To: Alberta's Child

Did you live in NYC to witness Giuliani’s turnaround of NYC in person?


43 posted on 12/28/2007 5:34:05 PM PST by jimbo123
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To: CaptainMorgantown

Tom Duane, the AIDS-infected councilman quoted in this article fought Giuliani’s attempts to shut down the Adonis Theatre. That venue was probably responsible for half the AIDs infections in NYC. Luckily, Rudy succeeded in closing down the Adonis and the AIDS-for-Everyone lobby lost.


44 posted on 12/28/2007 5:38:47 PM PST by jimbo123
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To: Alberta's Child

Wrong. It started with the Marquis hotel that started negotiating for land back in the early 1980s.


45 posted on 12/28/2007 5:39:39 PM PST by durasell (!)
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To: NYC Republican

I agree with you completely. I was born in upstate NY and my parents would never go to the “city” because it was so awful. Driving to the airports the highways were littered with dead cars left there forever. NYC changed for the better while Rudy was in office. I can speak personally of the change as I live in CT now as an adult and we do not fear the “city” at all. Times Square is amazing in its transformation. This naked guy playing the guitar I have never seen.
We feel safer in Manhattan than in Hartford or New Haven, CT.


46 posted on 12/28/2007 5:40:46 PM PST by mojo114 (Happy New Year!)
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To: jdm

You’re from NYC right?


47 posted on 12/28/2007 5:41:04 PM PST by AliVeritas (ah, the sheer grace! in darkness and concealment, my house being now all stilled.)
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To: jdm

When did you live in NYC?


48 posted on 12/28/2007 5:45:06 PM PST by jimbo123
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To: jdm

http://www.thechief-leader.com/news/2007/1130/News/010.html

Takes Aim At His Myth
WTC Board Game Zings Rudy

By ARI PAUL

Pete Gleason, an ex-cop who’s now an attorney, can add board game developer to his list of professions, as he unveiled the prototype for his Ground Zero board game Nov. 20, a work of satire he believes can shape the course of the presidential campaign.

READ more at the above link, there is no love for Rudy from the New York City Police Department


49 posted on 12/28/2007 5:50:41 PM PST by diefree
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To: durasell

Maybe so, but I believe the Marriott Marquis Hotel was built under the existing zoning, not as part of the overall Times Square re-zoning.


50 posted on 12/28/2007 5:52:18 PM PST by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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