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Is Mitt Romney Conservative? (Gov Romney Supported Abortion & Gay Agenda with Judges & Boy Scouts) ^ | 29Aug06 | Gary Glenn

Posted on 01/07/2008 6:18:49 AM PST by xzins

Is Mitt Romney Conservative?

by Gary Glenn Chairman, Campaign for Michigan Families

The Washington, D.C. conservative weekly Human Events last year listed Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney in its Top Ten list of RINOs (Republicans in Name Only), ranking him at number 8 in the nation with the following entry:

"Has said, ’I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country.’ Supports (homosexual) civil unions and stringent gun laws. After visiting Houston, he criticized the city’s aesthetics, saying, ’This is what happens when you don’t have zoning.’" (Human Events)

Romney should have ranked even higher on the list of RINOs. He famously likes to tell conservative audiences in Iowa and South Carolina that being a conservative Republican in Massachusetts is like being a cattle rancher at a vegetarian convention.

I attended last fall’s GOP conference in Michigan, where Romney continued his masquerade as a "conservative," even daring to tell the assembled activists: "I am pro-life" -- knowing full well that he does not mean by that term what those listening would think he meant.

Romney’s ten-year political career has occurred from his late 40s to his late 50s, yet he asks pro-family conservatives to naively believe that he’s just now figuring out his core beliefs.

During that decade, he has insistently supported legal abortion-on-demand. In a televised 1994 campaign debate, Romney said: "I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. I have since the time when my Mom took that position when she ran in 1970 as a U.S. Senate candidate. I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years that we should sustain and support it, and I sustain and support that law and the right of a woman to make that choice. ...Since that time, my mother and my family have been committed to the belief that we can believe as we want, but we will not force our beliefs on others on that matter, and you will not see my wavering on that." (Boston Globe)

His 2002 gubernatorial campaign web site stated: "As Governor, Mitt Romney would protect the current pro-choice status quo in Massachusetts. No law would change. The choice to have an abortion is a deeply personal one. Women should be free to choose based on their own beliefs, not the government’s." (Archive)

Romney’s response to the National Abortion Rights Action League’s 2002 candidate survery: ’’I respect and will protect a woman’s right to choose. This choice is a deeply personal one. Women should be free to choose based on their own beliefs, not mine and not the government’s. The truth is, no candidate in the governor’s race in either party would deny women abortion rights." (Notably, Romney refused to answer Massachusetts Citizens for Life’s candidate questionnaire.) (Boston Globe)

Not surprisingly, Romney’s clearly stated support for Roe and "a woman’s right to choose" -- i.e., abortion on demand -- earned him the endorsement of the pro-abortion Republican Majority for Choice PAC.

He was also endorsed, twice, by the homosexual "Log Cabin Republicans," the same group that in 2004 spent $1 million attacking President Bush for his support of a Marriage Protection Amendment.

Romney believes the Boy Scouts should allow openly homosexual Scoutmasters: "I feel that all people should be allowed to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation." (Web today)

He endorses Ted Kennedy’s federal "gay rights" legislation. He endorses taxpayer-financed same-sex benefits for the homosexual partners of state employees, and even attacked some Democratic legislators for not supporting such government benefits.

According to the Associated Press, he has appointed at least two openly homosexual lawyers to state judgeships, one a board member of the Lesbian & Gay Bar Association. Imagine how that will fly in Republican presidential primaries in the South, the prospect of a president with a record of appointing homosexual activists to the bench. (See copy of gubernatorial news release below.)

In 2002, before the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court legalized so-called homosexual "marriage," Romney denounced a preemptive state Marriage Protection Amendment prohibiting homosexual "marriage," civil unions, or same-sex public employee benefits as "too extreme," even after being advised by the media that his own wife and son had just signed a petition to place it on the ballot. (Boston Phoenix)

Now, as he postures to run for president, Romney travels to Iowa and Michigan and South Carolina to claim he’s "pro-life" and brag about fighting homosexual "marriage," saying that at age 59, his position on such issues has "evolved."

(No flip-flop so far, however, on his stated support for homosexual Scoutmasters, forcing taxpayers to fund spousal benefits for the "partners" of state employees involved in homosexual relationships, or Kennedy’s federal "gay rights" legislation.)

Regardless, most pro-family voters don’t believe in the theory of evolution -- including as it applies to politicians, and especially when the alleged "evolution" seems so conveniently timed to produce political benefit.

Gov. Romney can tell all the cattle-rancher-at-a-vegetarian-convention jokes he wants about Massachusetts. But they’re going to fall flat when social conservatives learn -- and they will -- that his long-term record on abortion and elements of homosexual activists’ political agenda has been that of Vegetarian in Chief.

TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events; US: New Hampshire
KEYWORDS: bsa; homosexualagenda; moralabsolutes; nh2008; proabortion; progay; romney; romneytruthfile
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A little insight to some sash bash infighting on how they can't even separate their own movement for a parade.

"We agree with the 1951 Mattachine Society slogan: "We will integrate as a group on our own terms, or we will not integrate at all."

Spirit of Stonewall
c/o Gayme Magazine
PO Box 15645
Boston, MA 02215 Tel.(617) 695-8015
Fax (617) 266-1125
AT STONEWALL 25, JUNE 26, 1994

Spirit of Stonewall (SOS) calls on Stonewall 25 and the gay and
lesbian movement to return to its roots. The Christopher Street
uprising was an outcry by those at the bottom and on the margins
of society against puritanical self-righteousness and bigotry.
It was a cry for full sexual liberation as part of the struggle
for social justice. Stonewall was the spontaneous action of
marginal people oppressed by the mainstream - of teenaged drag
queens, pederasts, transsexuals, hustlers, and others despised by
respectable straights and "discreet" homosexuals. They did not
call for their rights, they seized their own freedom. They did
not ask for integration into middle-class America, they screamed
against its pretensions of propriety.

SOS is an ad hoc committee of lesbian, gay and other individuals
and groups formed to bring Stonewall 25 back to the principles of
gay liberation. We focus on one of the most glaring departures
from those principles: the attempt to exclude the North American
Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA), and possibly other groups,
from the Stonewall 25 March and from their place within
gay/lesbian space and discourse.

Red-baiting, scapegoating, censorship and exclusion have been
hallmarks of American society. Just as unions, the civil rights
and peace movements were pressured to cleanse themselves of
suspected "communists," the lesbian/gay movement is now expected
to rid itself of social misfits, the vulnerable pederasts first
of all. Never before has such an ostensibly progressive movement
jumped so quickly through the hoops of its enemies. At least
there were years of debates among activists before some
capitulated to McCarthyism. ILGA, the Human Rights Campaign
Fund, Stonewall 25, and others who claim to support sexual
minorities and human rights have stumbled over each other as they
rush to deny these rights to those deemed unacceptable.

We find this the height of hypocrisy - to invoke the name of
Stonewall to cast out the alleged molesters among us. The issue
is not, first of all, intergenerational sex - although that is
one the movement needs to confront honestly rather than avoid.
SOS takes no stand specifically on age of consent laws or sex
between adults and those deemed legally "children." The issues
that now confront Stonewall 25 are free speech, free association
and inclusiveness.

NAMBLA's record as a responsible gay organization is well known.
NAMBLA was spawned by the gay community and has been in every
major gay and lesbian march. It has demonstrated in solidarity
with people with AIDS, and for lesbians in custody cases. NAMBLA
takes progressive positions on U.S. intervention in Central
America, the military draft, reproductive rights, the death
penalty, corporal punishment and racism. NAMBLA publicly
condemns the exploitation of children, including genuine sexual
abuse. NAMBLA believes the interests of young people demand not
paternalistic protection, but empowerment to make real choices.
Every organization within Stonewall 25 need not endorse every one
of the other organization's positions. NAMBLA's call for the
abolition of the age of consent is not the issue. NAMBLA is a
bona fide participant in the gay and lesbian movement. NAMBLA
deserves strong support in its rights of free speech and
association and its members' protection from discrimination and

Unless we return to the principles of Stonewall, the fate of
NAMBLA today may be the fate of other "different" and
"controversial" causes tomorrow. Gay and lesbian activists
before Stonewall understood the task of liberation. We agree
with the 1951 Mattachine Society slogan: "We will integrate as a
group on our own terms, or we will not integrate at all." We
will define our own agenda and decide for ourselves who we are!
Within our movement, if our brother or sister self-identifies as
gay, we will march with them and they with us. We call on
Stonewall 25 to rescind its attempt to ban NAMBLA. Meanwhile,
SOS announces: NAMBLA marches with us!

SIGNED: Harry Hay, Pat Califia, Gayle Rubin, Chris Bearchelli,
Scott O'Hara, Charley Shively, David Thorstad, Tom Reeves, Jim
Becker AND:





Identification: (Writer, Activist, Professor, Name of
Organization or Publication, etc. - does not imply endorsement):


GROUP ENDORSEMENT: (if a group officially endorses the SOS call)


WE CANNOT MARCH, but we will march "in spirit":_________________
WE NEED HOUSING (Limited Availability at $30 per night, two to
three persons per room):______________________

2 posted on 03/09/2007 1:52:43 PM EST by Calpernia (
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More on this Stonewall/NAMBLA/Mattachine car wreck:
Brief history of the modern childlove movement

More on the Parade, the vote for NAMBLA marching, and the voting members here:

A write up on how this parade turned out, can be viewed here:
Gays, Giuliani, and Catholics


Bad as the 1995 parade was, it was no match for last year's debacle ("Stonewall at 25," October 1994). On June 26, 1994, scores of fully naked men and women marched in an illegal parade yelling "F___ You" at those on the steps of St. Patrick's Cathedral. They masturbated in the street, pointed their middle fingers at the Cathedral, did satanic dances and dressed as cardinals, nuns, and priests. All of this was done in full view of Police Commissioner William Bratton and the New York City police force. Mayor Rudolph Giuliani watched from above in a helicopter. No one was arrested for anything.

101 posted on 01/07/2008 9:50:52 AM PST by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity
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To: Calpernia

Sorry about that last post. I over pasted. I’m sure that post 2 continuation from the other thread will confuse some :P

102 posted on 01/07/2008 9:53:50 AM PST by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity
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To: xzins

I guess if that’s your number one issue, you might be concerned, but generally, I’m willing to accept it when someone admits they were wrong.

103 posted on 01/07/2008 9:55:06 AM PST by Cinnamon Girl (OMGIIHIHOIIC ping list)
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To: xzins

Is Mitt Romney conservative?

One word answer: NO!

Lous and clear. Hope everyone gets it!

104 posted on 01/07/2008 9:55:31 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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In post 101, I excerpted the Mattachine Society slogan. Here is some background on the Mattachine Society. 'Stonewall' was only coined because that was the name of the pub, The Stonewall Inn, that was raided. Stonewall only refers to the group from the Mattachine Society that was at that Inn that fought off the raid by police.

>>>Though some criticized the Mattachine movement as insular, it grew to include thousands of members in dozens of chapters, which formed from Berkeley to Buffalo, and created a lasting national framework for gay organizing. Mattachine set the stage for rapid civil rights gains following 1969’s Stonewall riots in New York City.<<<

Harry Hay
Pioneer, coalition-builder and radical faerie
Nov., 2002

Henry “Harry” Hay, the founder of the modern American gay movement, died on October 24, 2002 at age 90. He had been diagnosed weeks earlier with lung cancer. Despite his illness, he remained lucid to the end and died peacefully in his sleep at his home in San Francisco.

“Harry Hay’s determined, visionary activism significantly lifted gays out of op-pression,” said Stuart

Timmons, who published a biography of Hay, called “The Trouble with Harry Hay,” in 1990. “All gay people continue to benefit from his fierce affirmation of gays as a people.”

Hay devoted his entire life to progressive politics, and in 1950 founded a state-registered foundation network of support groups for gays known as the Mattachine Society.

Hay was also a co-founder, in 1979, of the Radical Faeries, a movement affirming gayness as a form of spiritual calling. A rare link between gay and progressive politics, Hay and his partner of 39 years, John Burnside, had lived in San Francisco for three years after a lifetime in Los Angeles. Hay is listed in histories of the American gay movement as the first person to apply the term “minority” to homosexuals. An uncompromising radical, he easily dismissed “the heteros” and never rested from challenging the status quo, including within the gay community.

“Harry was one of the first to realize that the dream of equality for our community could be attained through visibility and activism,” said David M. Smith of the Human Rights Campaign in Washington, DC. “When you were in a room with him, you had the sense you were in the company of a historic figure.”

Due to the pervasive homophobia of his times (it was illegal for more than two homosexuals to congregate in California during the 1950s), Hay and his colleagues took an oath of anonymity that lasted a quarter century until Jonathan Ned Katz interviewed Hay for the ground-breaking book “Gay American History,” published in 1976. Countless researchers subsequently sought him out. In recent years, Hay became the subject of a biography, a PBS-funded documentary, and an anthology of his own writings called “Radically Gay: Gay Liberation in the Words of Its Founder.”

Before the establishment of the Mattachine Society, attempts to create gay organizations in the United States had fizzled or been stamped out. Hay’s first organizational conception was a group he called Bachelors Anonymous, formed to both support and leverage the 1948 presidential candidacy of Progressive Party leader Henry Wallace. Hay wrote and discreetly circulated a prospectus calling for “the androgynous minority” to organize as a political entity.

Hay’s call for an “international bachelor’s fraternal order for peace and social dignity” did not bear results until 1950. That year, his love affair with Viennese immigrant Rudi Gernreich (whose fashion designs eventually earned him a place on the cover of Time magazine), brought Hay into gay circles where a critical mass of daring souls could be found to begin sustained meetings. On November 11, 1950, at Hay’s home in the Silver Lake district of Los Angeles, a group of gay men met which became the Mattachine Society. Of the original Mattachine founders, Chuck Rowland, Bob Hull, and Dale Jennings pre-deceased Hay. Konrad Stevens and John Gruber are the last surviving members of the founding group.

“Mattachine” took its name from a group of medieval dancers who appeared publicly only in mask, a device well understood by homosexuals of the 1950s. Hay devised its secret cell structure (based on the Masonic order) to protect individual gays and the nascent gay network. Officially co-gender, the group was largely male -- the Daughters of Bilitis, the pioneering lesbian organization, formed independently in San Francisco in 1956.

Though some criticized the Mattachine movement as insular, it grew to include thousands of members in dozens of chapters, which formed from Berkeley to Buffalo, and created a lasting national framework for gay organizing. Mattachine set the stage for rapid civil rights gains following 1969’s Stonewall riots in New York City.

Harry Hay was born in England in 1912, the day the Titanic sank. His father worked as a mining engineer in South Africa and Chile, but the family settled in Southern California. After graduating from Los Angeles High School, he briefly attended Stanford, but dropped out and returned to Los Angeles. He understood from childhood that he was a sissy -- different in behavior from boys or girls -- and also that he was attracted to men. His same-sex affairs began when he was a teenager, not long after he began reading 19th century scholar Edward Carpenter, whose essays on “homogenic love” strongly influenced his thinking.

A tall and muscular young man, Hay worked as both an extra and ghostwriter in 1930s Hollywood. He developed a passion for theater, and performed on Los Angeles stages with Anthony Quinn in the 1930s, and with Will Geer, who became his lover. Geer (who later generations grew to love as Grandpa Walton on the TV series “The Waltons”), took Hay to the San Francisco General Strike of 1934, and indoctrinated him into the American Communist Party. Hay became an active trade unionist. A blend of Marxist analysis and stagecraft strongly influenced his later gay organizing.

Despite a decade of gay life, in 1938 Hay married the late Anita Platky, also a Communist Party member. The couple were stalwarts of the Los Angeles Left. Hay taught at the California Labor School and worked on domestic campaigns like that for Ed Roybal, the first Latino elected in Los Angeles. The Hayses occasionally hosted Pete Seeger when he performed in Los Angeles, and Hay recalled demonstrating with Josephine Baker in 1945 over the Jim Crow segregation policy of a local restaurant. When he felt compelled to go public with the Mattachine Society in 1951, Hay and his wife divorced.

After a burst of activity lasting three years, the growing Mattachine rejected Hay as a liability due to his Communist beliefs. In 1955, when he was called before the House Un-American Activities Committee, he had trouble finding a progressive attorney to represent him. He felt this was due to homophobia on the Left. (He was ultimately dismissed after his curt, brief testimony was deemed unimportant.) Hay felt exiled from the Left for nearly fifty years, until he received the Life Achievement Award of a Los Angeles library preserving the history and artifacts of progressive movements.

A second wind of activism came in 1979 when Hay founded, with Don Kilhefner, a spiritual movement known as the Radical Faeries. This pagan-inspired group continues internationally based on the principle that the consciousness of gays differs from that of heterosexuals. Hay believed that this different way of seeing constituted the greatest contribution gays made to society, and was indeed the reason for their continued presence throughout history.

For most of his life Hay lived in Los Angeles. However, during the early 1940s, Hay and his wife lived in New York City. He returned there with John Burnside to march and speak at the Stonewall 25 celebration in 1994. During the 1970s, he and Burnside moved to New Mexico, where he ran the trading post at San Juan Pueblo Indian reservation.

His years of research for gay references in history and anthropology texts led Hay to formulate his own gay-centered political philosophy, which he wrote and spoke about constantly. His theory of “gay consciousness” placed variant thinking as the most significant trait in homosexuals. “We differ most from heterosexuals in how we perceive the world. That ability to offer insights and solutions is our contribution to humanity, and why our people keep reappearing over the millennia,” he often stressed.

Hay’s occasional exhortations that gays should “maximize the differences” between themselves and heterosexuals remained controversial. Some academics and activists seeking full integration of gays and lesbians into straight society tended to reject his ideas while still respecting his historic stature.

A fixture at anti-draft and anti-war demonstrations for sixty years, Hay worked in Women’s Strike for Peace during the Vietnam War as a conscious strategy to build a coalition between gay and feminist progressives. He also worked closely with Native American activists, especially the Committee for Traditional Indian Land and Life. Hay was a local founder of the Lavender Caucus of Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow Coalition during the early 1980s, and was determined to convince the gay community that its political success was inextricably tied to a broader progressive agenda.

Despite his often-combative nature, Hay became an increasingly beloved figure to younger generations of gay activists. He was often referred to as the “Father of Gay Liberation.”

Hay is survived by Burnside as well as by his self-chosen gay family, a model he strongly advocated for lesbians and gays. His adopted daughters, Kate Berman and Hannah Muldaven, also survive him. A circle of Radical Faeries provided care for him and Burnside through their later years.

Harry Hay leaves behind a wide circle of friends and admirers among lesbians, gays, and progressive activists. Donations in his memory can be made to the San Francisco GLBT Community Center, 1800 Market Street, San Francisco CA 94102 (identify it for the Harry and John Founders Wall plaque), or to the One Institute and Archives, 909 West Adams Blvd, Los Angeles, CA 90007.

[This obituary was prepared by Stuart Timmons, Hay’s official biographer, historian Martin Duberman, Joey Cain of the San Francisco GLBT Pride Parade, and Harry Hay’s niece, Sally Hay. IN Step’s Jamakaya also contributed to the story.]

105 posted on 01/07/2008 9:59:05 AM PST by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity
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To: greyfoxx39

LOL..(TBS: “Very Funny”)!

106 posted on 01/07/2008 10:00:41 AM PST by JSDude1 (When a liberal represents the Presidential Nominee for the Republicans; THEY'RE TOAST)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

You said:

“So saying that Mitt Romney “supports” gays in the military is a meaningless charge.”

Then explain to me Mitt Romney’s own words in a letter to the Log Cabin Republicans:

“I believe that the Clinton compromise was a step in the right direction. I am also convinced that it is the first of a number of steps that will ultimately lead to gays and lesbians being able to serve openly and honestly in our nations military.” - Mitt Romney

107 posted on 01/07/2008 10:10:52 AM PST by rightazrain (GO FRED!!!!)
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To: Deut28; xzins
Raising fees (to an extent) is good for the tax payers because otherwise, the taxpayer - through broadbased fees - is subsidizing low fees for service users.

Mitt raised fees on people taking the bar exam. They had not been raised in a long time and the fees no longer reflected the cost of administering the test. The deficit had been made up by tax payers.

Is it now clear why fee increases must be evaluated differently than involuntary tax increases?

108 posted on 01/07/2008 10:11:30 AM PST by mbraynard (Tagline changed due to admin request)
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To: Mr. Silverback; P-Marlowe
I hadn’t known about the Boy Scout thing. I’d like to see a cite for that, but if it’s true he’s pretty much off the table for me.

It's not true. From the video that that P-Marlowe linked: 'I support the right of the Boy Scounts to decide what it wants to do on [admission of gays].'

109 posted on 01/07/2008 10:14:29 AM PST by mbraynard (Tagline changed due to admin request)
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To: Servant of the Cross

What boy scout answer? He supported the boy scout’s right to exclude homosexuals.

110 posted on 01/07/2008 10:16:30 AM PST by mbraynard (Tagline changed due to admin request)
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To: xzins; Servant of the Cross; P-Marlowe
Does he get points for being a pro-life governor? For vetoing embryonic stem cell research, for defeating a free speech barrier around abortion clinics, for supporting abstinence education?

How many points did Thompson loose for lobbying to allow fed funding for abortion referrals?

111 posted on 01/07/2008 10:18:42 AM PST by mbraynard (Tagline changed due to admin request)
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To: Calpernia
I would like you to show me how you are separating the affiliation from the same political movement.

Wha? I already posted a link to the Log Cabin Repubs campaigning against Romney. There's a gazillion links for that. All you gotta do is google +romney +"log cabin".

Given all that's been attributed to him here I don't know how he managed to serve on the Boy Scouts National Executive Board for 9 years (1993-2002).

112 posted on 01/07/2008 10:19:51 AM PST by BufordP (Had Mexicans flown planes into the World Trade Center, Jorge Bush would have surrendered.)
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To: mbraynard

Romney’s conversion earned him a point. Thompson’s lobby activities were as a lawyer doing a job for a client, but they still lost him a point.

113 posted on 01/07/2008 10:21:38 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain! True Supporters of Our Troops Support the Necessity of their Sacrifice!)
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To: xzins
Mitt needs to be higher as Thompson on the issue. He had a practically perfect pro-life record as Governor. Besides, Romney said he would have signed the South Dakota ban - Thompson isn't in favor of any ban on first trimester abortion (see Hanity and Colmes, see his answers on the surveys when he ran for Senate).

Scoring systems are suppose to be a means for introducing objectivity.

114 posted on 01/07/2008 10:25:23 AM PST by mbraynard (Tagline changed due to admin request)
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To: BufordP

>>>I already posted a link to the Log Cabin Repubs campaigning against Romney.

Yes you did. At post 76. And I answered you here:

And my question to you again was, how are you separating the affiliation from the same political movement?

115 posted on 01/07/2008 10:26:27 AM PST by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity
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To: mbraynard; P-Marlowe; Calpernia

Did you even read this article?

Go to RomneyTruthFile.

There’s no way that Mitt has a pro-life record. Anyone who thinks so is smokin’ da ganja.

116 posted on 01/07/2008 10:30:12 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain! True Supporters of Our Troops Support the Necessity of their Sacrifice!)
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To: BufordP
The signs are all there. Mitt is not a conservative. He is handsome, articulate, filthy rich enough to try to buy the presidency, spending $17 or so mil of his own money. He is John Kerry lite, only much better looking. However, much of so called conservative America is willing to overlook his liberal warts because of his possible winning shallowness.

As to someone just finding Jesus, I say welcome brother in Christ--Jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them, and Mitt's fruits are Roe v Wade is good; nannycare is good; homosexuality is good.


117 posted on 01/07/2008 10:31:09 AM PST by vaudine (RO)
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To: xzins

I admit, I didn’t read this article. I got pinged here for my Log Cabin links.

118 posted on 01/07/2008 10:33:14 AM PST by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity
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To: xzins; Fred

Freeper Fred posted a thread on Mitt’s ‘pro life’ record last night. I’ll see if I can find the link.

119 posted on 01/07/2008 10:34:19 AM PST by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity
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To: Calpernia

Your preoccupation with homosexuality is noticeable.

120 posted on 01/07/2008 10:41:21 AM PST by La Enchiladita (Wise men seek him still...)
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