Barak Obama's Racist Church

NewsMax.com ^ | January 7, 2008 | Ronald Kessler

[no dems]

Imagine if Mitt Romney’s church proclaimed on its website that it is “unashamedly white.”

The media would pounce, and Romney’s presidential candidacy would be over. Yet that is exactly what Barack Obama’s church says on its web site — except in reverse.

“We are a congregation which is unashamedly black and unapologetically Christian,” says the Trinity United Church of Christ’s website in Chicago. “We are an African people and remain true to our native land, the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.”

That’s just the beginning. The church has a “non-negotiable commitment to Africa,” according to its website, and its pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. subscribes to what is called the Black Value System.

[no dems]

Why is this not "news" I wonder. I'm no Huck or Romney fan but they sure get flack because of their church/religion.

[AliVeritas]

Well about time!

I’ll return with more stuff...

[TheThirdRuffian]

“Imagine if Mitt Romney’s church proclaimed on its website that it is “unashamedly white.””

Until recently, the Mormon Church pretty much did exactly that. Blacks were black because they were decendants of people who rebelled against Jesus and were punished by being turned black.

[ZULU]

SHUSSSSSSSSSSSSHH!!!!

Keep this secret until AFTER the nomination!!!

[svcw]

Oh, man you said it first.

[ChocChipCookie]

I just got an email about this from my mom, asking if it were true or not. I’ll have to forward this link to her.

[kbennkc]

I would suggest it is because unlike Huck and Mitt , no one really thinks Obambi believes his own religion.

[RC2]

“We are an African people and remain true to our native land, the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.” ????? If this is actually what they have said, why don’t they go back to Africa? Either they are Americans or they aren’t.

[polymuser]

.

Do such words override their allegiance to the U.S.A.?

[Bushbacker1]

I received an email a few days back concerning this subject. The emailer was concerned about its authenticity. And now it appears on Newsmax. Scary!

Link: http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

[TheThirdRuffian]

It’s not like it’s a secret belief of the Mormons. Smith used it to justify slavery, in fact.

You would have thought the author would have used a different example. Perhaps he’s clueless.

[SJackson]

From an this mornings thread, Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam .

About Us

http://www.tucc.org/home.htm

 

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1.      A congregation committed to ADORATION.

2.      A congregation preaching SALVATION.

3.      A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

4.      A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

5.      A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

6.      A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

7.      A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

8.      A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9.      A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10.  A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Click here to read about Dr. Wright’s talking points for Trinity United Church of Christ its Web site and the Black Value System.

 

THE BLACK VALUE SYSTEM

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System, written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee, chaired by the late Vallmer Jordan in 1981.

Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School System.  His dedication to the pursuit of excellence, despite systematic denials, has inspired the congregation of Trinity United Church of Christ.  Prayerfully, we have called upon the wisdom of all past generations of suffering Blacks for guidance in fashioning an instrument of Black self-determination, the Black Value System.

Beginning in 1982, an annual Black Value System – Educational Scholarship in the name of Dr. Byrd was instituted.  The first recipient of the Dr. Manford Byrd Award, which is given annually to the man or woman who best exemplifies the Black Value System, was our brother, Dr. Manford Byrd.

These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered.  They consist of the following concepts:

1.      Commitment to God.  “The God of our weary years” will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activists, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankind.

2.      Commitment to the Black Community.  The highest level of achievement for any Black person must be a contribution of strength and continuity of the Black Community.

3.      Commitment to the Black Family.  The Black family circle must generate strength, stability and love, despite the uncertainty of externals, because these characteristics are required if the developing person is to withstand warping by our racist competitive society. 

Those Blacks who are blessed with membership in a strong family unit must reach out and expand that blessing to the less fortunate.

4.      Dedication to the Pursuit of Education.  We must forswear anti-intellectualism.  Continued survival demands that each Black person be developed to the utmost of his/her mental potential despite the inadequacies of the formal education process.  “Real education” fosters understanding of ourselves as well as every aspect of our environment.  Also, it develops within us the ability to fashion concepts and tools for better utilization of our resources, and more effective solutions to our problems.  Since the majority of Blacks have been denied such learning, Black Education must include elements that produce high school graduates with marketable skills, a trade or qualifications for apprenticeships, or proper preparation for college.

Basic education for all Blacks should include Mathematics, Science, Logic, General Semantics, Participative Politics, Economics and Finance, and the Care and Nurture of Black minds.

5.      Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence.   To the extent that we individually reach for, even strain for excellence, we increase, geometrically, the value and resourcefulness of the Black Community.  We must recognize the relativity of one’s best; this year’s best can be bettered next year.  Such is the language of growth and development.  We must seek to excel in every endeavor.

6.      Adherence to the Black Work Ethic.  “It is becoming harder to find qualified people to work in Chicago.”  Whether this is true or not, it represents one of the many reasons given by businesses and industries for deserting the Chicago area.  We must realize that a location with good facilities, adequate transportation and a reputation for producing skilled workers will attract industry.  We are in competition with other cities, states and nations for jobs.  High productivity must be a goal of the Black workforce.

7.      Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect.  To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline.  We must be a community of self-disciplined persons if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources, instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others.  Self-discipline, coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress and a model for Black Youth.

8.      Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness.”  Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the “talented tenth” of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

Those so identified are separated from the rest of the people by:

1.      Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

2.      Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

3.      Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which, while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of “we” and “they” instead of “us.”

4.      So, while it is permissible to chase “middleclassness” with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method – the psychological entrapment of Black “middleclassness.”  If we avoid this snare, we will also diminish our “voluntary” contributions to methods A and B.  And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright: the leadership, resourcefulness and example of their own talented persons.

9.      Pledge to Make the Fruits of All Developing and Acquired Skills Available to the Black Community.
 

10.  Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions.

11.  Pledge Allegiance to All Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace the Black Value System.

12.  Personal Commitment to Embracement of the Black Value System.  To measure the worth and validity of all activity in terms of positive contributions to the general welfare of the Black Community and the Advancement of Black People towards freedom.

 

Talking Points

Dr. Wright’s talking points (3.1.7) for Trinity United Church of Christ its Web site and the Black Value System (in response to Erik Rush’s comments (2.28.07) on the Hannity and Colmes show):

• One of the biggest gaps in knowledge that causes the kind of ignorance that you hear spouted by this man [Erik Rush] and those like him, has to do with the fact that these persons are completely ignorant when it comes to the Black religious tradition. The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology that started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone’s book, Black Power and Black Theology.

• Black theology is one of the many theologies in the Americas that became popular during the liberation theology movement. They include Hispanic theology, Native American theology, Asian theology and Womanist theology.

• I use the word “systematized” because Black liberation theology was in existence long before Dr. Cone’s book. It originates in the days of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. It was systematized and published by theologians, Old Testament scholars, New Testament scholars, ethicists, church historians, and historians of religion such as Dr. James Cone, Dr. Cain Hope Felder, Dr. Gayraud Wilmore, Dr. Jacqueline Grant, Dr. Kelley Brown Douglas, Dr. Renita Weems, Dr. Katie Cannon, Dr. Dwight Hopkins, Dr. Linda Thomas, and Dr. Randall Bailey.

• These scholars, who write in various disciplines, also include seminary presidents like Dr. John Kinney and professors of Hebrew Bible, like Dr. Jerome Ross. Black liberation theology defines Africans and African Americans as subjects – not the objects which colonizers and oppressors have consistently defined “others” as.

• We [African Americans] were always seen as objects. When we started defining ourselves, it scared those who try to control others by naming them and defining them for them; Oppressors do not like “others” defining themselves.

• To have a church whose theological perspective starts from the vantage point of Black liberation theology being its center, is not to say that African or African American people are superior to any one else.

• African-centered thought, unlike Eurocentrism, does not assume superiority and look at everyone else as being inferior.

• There is more than one center from which to view the world. In the words of Dr. Janice Hale, “Difference does not mean deficience.” It is from this vantage point that Black liberation theology speaks.

• Systematized Black liberation theology is 40 years old. Scholars of African and African American religious history show that Black liberation theology, however, has been in existence for 400 years. It is found in the songs, the sermons, the testimonies and the oral literature of Africans throughout the Diaspora.

 

==============================

 

 It was ... at Trinity United Church of Christ on the South Side of Chicago that I met Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., who took me on another journey and introduced me to a man named Jesus Christ. It was the best education I ever had,
Barak Obama

"Black women are being raped daily in Africa. One white girl from Alabama gets drunk at a graduation trip to Aruba, goes off and gives it up while in a foreign country and that stays in the news for months.”
Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr

White America got their wake-up call after 9-11. White America and the Western world came to realize people of color had not gone away, faded in the woodwork, or just disappeared as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns
Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr

 

 

==============================

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/a-message-of-hate-from-obamas-pastor-via-youtube

My transcription of Rev. Wright’s remarks:

God Has Got To Be Sick Of This Shit!

[Joined in progress] … Justice is ignored. When women are treated like, or are permitted by this society to be called publicly "bitches," justice is ignored.

And on that note, on that note, let me paraphrase Dr. Anthony Campolo, one of the nation’s greatest preachers.

He said something to this effect.

Fact number one: we’ve got more black men in prison than there are in college.

Racism is alive and well. Racism is the American way.

Racism is how this country was founded, and how this country is still run.

No black man can ever be President. I don’t care how hard you run Jesse.

No black woman will ever be considered for anything outside of what she can give with her body.

Fact number three: America is still the number one killer in the world.

We invaded Grenada for no other reason than to get Maurice Bishop. We destroyed Panama because Noriega would no longer dance to our tune anymore.

We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training professional killers.

We bombed Cambodia, Iraq and Nicaragua, killing women and children, while trying to turn public opinion against Castro and Qaddafi.

Fact number four: we put Mandela in prison and supported apartheid the whole 27 years he was there.

We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority. And believe it more than we believe in God.

Fact number five: we supported Zionism shamelessly while ignoring the Palestinians, and branding anybody who spoke out against it as being anti-Semitic.

Fact number six: we conducted radiation experiments on our own people. You’re just finding out about that. We care nothing about human life, if the end justifies the means.

Fact number seven: we do not care if poor black and brown children cannot read and kill each other senselessly. We abandoned the cities back in the sixties when the riots started, and it really doesn’t matter what those nnn… [niggers] "natives" do to each other.

We gave up on them and public education for poor people who live in the projects. We with VCRs, DVDs, CDs and portable phones have more homeless than any nation in the world.

Fact number eight: we started the AIDS virus, and now that it is out of control we still put more money in the military than in medicine. More money in hate than humanitarian concerns.

Everybody does not have access to health care. I don’t care what the rich white boys in the Senate say.

[Garbled] listen up. If you are poor black and elderly — forget it.

Fact number nine: we only able to maintain our level of living by making sure the Third World people live in grinding poverty.

Fact number ten: we are selfish, self-centered ego egotists, who are arrogant and ignorant.

We pray at church and do not try to make the kingdom that Jesus talked about a reality.

And, and, and… in light of these in fact God has got to be sick of this shit!

I wonder if he said this to Barack?

No black man can ever be President.

In light of Reverend Wright’s remarks, read this article from the Chicago Tribune:

 

[TheThirdRuffian]

It was on the church’s website until recently.

Bits about refusing “middleclassedness” or some socialist B.S., too.

[joebuck]

I remember the first time I checked out this Church’s website. Once I got there I had to click 3 or 4 links to find the word Jesus. That tells me all I need to know.

[xtinct]

Wright society "an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons"

Note: Many young people both black and white grow up in poverty. Most do not commit crimes. Homelife (parental oversight) seems a much better excuse for criminal behavior than *an economic evironment.

"white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01" - ALL Americans got the same wake-up call. Why does the pastor of this church encourage segregation????

[no dems]

Africa is NOT the “cradle of civilization”. Ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq/Iran) holds that honor. The guy does not know Geography fer sho.

[svcw]

Clueless - maybe not.

[joebuck]

I note that in the incredibly long excerpt you posted from this “Church’s” website the word Jesus never appears.

[socialismisinsidious]

Heck in the world of liberals there is nothing that the Rev. has said that they wouldn't agree with.

I've known for a while that black trumps woman too bad Hillary didn't figure that out sooner...liberals will vote for Obama just to prove that they aren't racist. And of course in doing so they will only prove how racist they truly are.

According to Wright, Obama then told him, “'You can get kind of rough in the sermons, so what we’ve decided is that it’s best for you not to be out there in public.'” But privately, Obama and his family prayed with Wright just before the presidential announcement.

Translation: I agree with you but let's keep it covered up.

But media bias or not, if Obama is his party’s nominee, his Republican opponent will rightly be able to make use of Rev. Wright and his radical teachings as effectively as supporters of George H.W. Bush used Willie Horton’s furlough to help Bush win the presidency.

They will rightly be able to make use of the Rev.'s radical teachings but they will be deemed racists by the MSM in doing so...the MSM will back their man and they will resort to tactics that have always worked in the past: name call and obfuscate so the sheople fall into line.

[vpintheak]

Why doesn’t the media report this? Hmmm.. I want whoever the repub. candidate will be to jump down his back about this. Osama hussien will be the rat candidate.

[no dems]

I still believe that Obama is a “closet” Muslim.

[-=SoylentSquirrel=-]

It sure does not sound like the Church of "What Happened?"

[SJackson]

I note that in the incredibly long excerpt you posted from this “Church’s” website the word Jesus never appears.

I've read that among the many pages advocating support for Africa, neither the word America or United States nor abbreviations appear, in fact it won't be found on the site . I haven't verified that, I've seen them used in Rev. Wright's writings, as a source of persecution only.

[bpjam]

Nobody seems to question how logical is it that people from ‘the motherland’ were Christians. How could Christianity possible by their ‘native’ religion? Its like Indonesians believing that islam was their ‘native’ religion.

[Uncle Hal]

Sean Hannity has been on this for weeks.

[kbennkc]

I miss Flip .

[mel]

That is what I don’t understand. On and on about this mormonism and that is small potatoes to Barack HUSSEIN Obama

[mel]

I do also. absolutely

[ridesthemiles]

“We are an African people and remain true to our native land, the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.” ????? If this is actually what they have said, why don’t they go back to Africa? Either they are Americans or they aren’t.”

How much of the donations to the church are spent trying to better the lives of those in Africa???

How much effort is spent trying to oust Mugambe and getting Zimbabwe back on track growing it’s own food?
How about the unrest in Kenya?
How about the Sudan?

If they are so Christian in their beliefs and so committed to Africa, show the world how they exlemplify thie behavior.

I this this is pure bullcrap. I still think Obama is Muslim, thru and thru to the core. He is hiding part of his life time-line, especially his “education in the Middle East—which occurred after his father reappeared in his life after an 8 year absence between 2 and 8 years old.

[SJackson]

BTW, if you compare their mission statement with the Nation of Islam (HQ about 4.5 miles away, small world), they’re quite similar. The NOI being a little more direct about separatism, and what to do with the white devils.

[woodbutcher1963]

OBAMA is the Manchurian Candidate.

[nonsporting]

Africa is NOT the “cradle of civilization”. Ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq/Iran) holds that honor. The guy does not know Geography fer sho.

No, this is a "cultural reclamation" movement, even it if means borrowing someone else's culture, to the slight and undervaluation of your own.

I got sucked into this debate in the mid 90's when I discovered Mary Lefkowitz's Not Out of Africa which was written in reponse to Martin Bernal's "Black Athena" and the Afrocentrist movement claiming that black Africans were responsible for the great civilizations of Egypt and Greece.

Who knows, given current trends we may see similar claims about American civilization.

[Domandred]

Smith used it to justify slavery, in fact.

Bullshit. One of Smith's presidential campaign platforms was the abolishment of slavery.

[mel]

And some idiot on CNN states Obama is the candidate that can unite us.

[TheThirdRuffian]

“Bullshit. One of Smith’s presidential campaign platforms was the abolishment of slavery.”

You can apologize in your next post:

Writing for the Messenger and Advocate (April 9, 1836) newspaper on the subject of slavery, Joseph Smith states:

“After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt but those who have been forward in raising their voice against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling and unkind-wholly unacquainted with the gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then, to name certain passages from the bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon this nature, as the fact is incontrovertible, that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation and walked with God. And so far from that prediction’s being averse from the mind of God it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude:

“And he said cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem and Canaan shall be his servant.” —Genesis 9:25-27

“Trace the history of the world from this notable event down to this day, and you will find the fulfillment of this singular prophecy. What could have been the design of the Almighty in this wonderful occurrence is not for me to say; but I can say that the curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the decrees and purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before him; and those who are determined to pursue a course which shows an opposition and a feverish restlessness against the designs of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do his own work without the aid of those who are not dictate by his counsel.” - (Joseph Smith Jr., Messenger and Advocate Vol. II, No. 7, April 1836 , p. 290; History of the Church, Vol. 2, Ch. 30, pp. 436-40.)

[sasafras]

I know why the left isnt playing this but I dont understand why the right isnt touting this.

In fact Rush interrupted a caller who was detailing Obamas church and Rush cut him off and said he wouldnt allow an attack against Obamas religion. Rush is a joke if he thinks that this is not significant. It is not about an attack on Obama’s religion but instead on Obamas views. He goes there and this is the kind of hate that they preach - it is very significant and should be frontline news.

[TheThirdRuffian]

Because of his high profile Rush has to take a safer route.

It’s unfortunate, but can’t be helped when such a large target.

[MosesKnows]

Question?

On what date did the Trinity United Church of Christ remove the 12-point Black Value System from their web page and replace it with the 10-point Vision...and why?

[ThisLittleLightofMine]

No, they were descendants of Cain. That was the mark placed upon him/them according to the Mormon church.

[TheThirdRuffian]

Maybe there, too, but it’s also here:

The first reference in Latter Day Saint writings describing dark skin as a curse. The Book of Mormon, published in the late 1820s, states the following about a group of people who rebelled against God:

And [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.” (2 Nephi 5:21, emphasis added)

Those who rebelled were called Lamanites and those who did not were called Nephites. The curse was also placed on the Lamanites’ descendants “because of the traditions of their fathers,”(Alma 17:15) which would ultimately “be taken from [them] and be answered upon the heads of [their] parents.”(2 Nephi 4:6)

[ThisLittleLightofMine]

I am fairly certain one day soon they will have a “new revelation” about homosexuality. The cult of flip-flopping.

[TheThirdRuffian]

I know little about it; had a black roomate (fire breathing Baptist, now a US Attorney) and a white roomate (Mormon, back from missionary work, now working for daddy) in college (football dorm) and they lit into each other with regularity.

I just hung out and drank beer and listened to them squabble.

[ThisLittleLightofMine]

I bet that was interesting. My best friend was raised Mormon and later received Christ and is a baptist.

[ladyjane]

You are so right. Liberals will be so proud of themselves if they vote for a black.

That’s what happened in Massachusetts. Liberals were quoted in the newspaper congratulating themselves for electing a black governor. It hasn’t turned out well at all. Even the liberals have to admit that.

[TheThirdRuffian]

It was; it was also annoying.

[Aliska]

Do you have the other 2 points and when they were taken down if it is not an urban legend? I know the page is there now with 10 under about us.

[Constantine XIII]

look it up on Archive.org. That should be a fairly decisive test.

[Non-Sequitur]

Imagine if Mitt Romney’s church proclaimed on its website that it is “unashamedly white.”

And if Joe Lieberman's synagogue announced that it has “non-negotiable commitment to Israel,” would Newsmax be bitching about that?

[MosesKnows]

Do you have the other 2 points

I fear you have missed the point. The difference between the 12-point Black Value System and the 10-point Vision System is far more than 2 points.

The 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.
2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.
3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

The 12-point Black Value System:

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

I trust this will be of some help in answering your question.

[SJackson]

They're both there. The 12 pointer is here. Looks like they removed the link from the about us page, so it's probably on it's way out.