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Iran Encounter Grimly Echoes 02 War Game
nytimes ^ | January 12, 2008 | By THOM SHANKER

Posted on 01/11/2008 7:01:07 PM PST by Flavius

WASHINGTON — There is a reason American military officers express grim concern over the tactics used by Iranian sailors last weekend: a classified, $250 million war game in which small, agile speedboats swarmed a naval convoy to inflict devastating damage on more powerful warships.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: hormuz; iran; journalism; usn; yellow
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i dont want to get banned...

thats all

1 posted on 01/11/2008 7:01:09 PM PST by Flavius
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To: Flavius

Didn’t a fast boat do the devastation to the USS Cole during the Clinton administration? I would think our Navy is always on high alert when being approached by any vessel.


2 posted on 01/11/2008 7:04:30 PM PST by originalbuckeye
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To: Flavius
a classified, $250 million war game in which small, agile speedboats swarmed a naval convoy to inflict devastating damage on more powerful warships.

Apparently discussing classified documents when American sailors are at risk isn't a problem at the NY Times.

3 posted on 01/11/2008 7:07:40 PM PST by Last Dakotan (All my tools are hammers, except screwdrivers which are chisels and punches.)
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To: Flavius

Stalin is reported to have remarked that there is a certain quality in quantity. That said, the Times often engages in liberal projection of its deeply seated desire to see the US defeated.


4 posted on 01/11/2008 7:10:22 PM PST by theBuckwheat
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To: originalbuckeye

I would have to dig up the story again, but if I recall correctly, Cole was tied up at the dock and the boat loaded with explosives pulled up next to her at a normal rate of travel.


5 posted on 01/11/2008 7:13:03 PM PST by Enterprise (Those who "betray us" also "Betray U.S." They're called DEMOCRATS!)
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To: Flavius

Why would you get banned?


6 posted on 01/11/2008 7:13:22 PM PST by Sawdring
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To: Flavius

Wasn’t it this kind of hubris that doomed the Death Star?

The notion swarming bees can’t hurt a man is just insane - just ask the guy who’s experienced it.


7 posted on 01/11/2008 7:15:05 PM PST by Edward Watson (Fanatics with guns beat liberals with ideas)
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To: Sawdring

I think he means he would be banned if he expressed his true feelings.


8 posted on 01/11/2008 7:21:56 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: Edward Watson

The Death Star was doomed by a glaringly fatal engineering flaw, which is apparently a standing requirement for all Imperial vessels.

Suicide bombers are always hard to defend against—especially in large numbers. Of course, payback can be a real bitch.


9 posted on 01/11/2008 7:23:49 PM PST by rbg81 (DRAIN THE SWAMP!!)
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To: Flavius

This is total BULL!! Yes maybe they could sucker punch a few ships but after that, everything they own of value would be decimated.


10 posted on 01/11/2008 7:25:20 PM PST by AmericaUnited
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To: theBuckwheat

I have a deeply seated desire to see the same happen to the NYT.


11 posted on 01/11/2008 7:26:53 PM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (ENERGY CRISIS made in Washington D. C.)
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To: Flavius
The ONLY way a bunch of 20-foot fast boats could harm steel warships is to pack them with explosives (plentiful over there) and explode on contact.

The ONLY way to prevent such an incident is to sink any boat that comes close. Sink a few, and the others will think twice.

I wonder what the ROE allows these days? 200 yards? 100 yards? Better hose them down before they get alongside. The others will get the message.

12 posted on 01/11/2008 7:31:18 PM PST by Sender (Feel like, I feel like a poke chop san'wich)
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To: Enterprise

As I recall the explosives used in the cole bombing was special high explosives made in (russia?) I think. Funny nothing ever came out about that.

Kursk sunk august 14th 2000

USS Cole bombing October 12th 2000

Pissed off russian putin looks to save face gives ultra high explosives to the Izlambies to get us (supposedly) back for sinking the Kursk. Thoughts?


13 posted on 01/11/2008 7:32:08 PM PST by Walkingfeather (u)
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To: Walkingfeather

Anything is possible with the Russians, but they are completely loony if they are trying to blame the United States for their own incompetence for the sinking of the Kursk.


14 posted on 01/11/2008 7:41:59 PM PST by Enterprise (Those who "betray us" also "Betray U.S." They're called DEMOCRATS!)
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To: Last Dakotan
"a classified, $250 million war game in which small, agile speedboats swarmed a naval convoy to inflict devastating damage on more powerful warships."

Actually, it looks life the author of the piece lifted his article from the pages of the The Black Swan by Nassim Taleb. Nassim devotes almost an entire chapter to the Millennium Challenge 2002 exercise. Most likely this is where the author of the article got his information. I have absolutely no doubt that the so called "journalist" did any more research than that - this is the NY Slimes that we are talking about here.

Unfortunately, I can't find my copy of the Black Swan, or I would check to see how much the good "journalist" lifted from it.

15 posted on 01/11/2008 7:47:13 PM PST by Left2Right ("Democracy isn't perfect, but other governments are so much worse (especially Iran's)")
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To: Flavius

“In the war game, scores of adversary speedboats and larger naval vessels had been shadowing and hectoring the Blue Team fleet for days. The Blue Team defenses also faced cruise missiles fired simultaneously from land and from warplanes, as well as the swarm of speedboats firing heavy machine guns and rockets — and pulling alongside to detonate explosives on board.

“When the Red Team sank much of the Blue navy despite the Blue navy’s firing of guns and missiles, it illustrated a cheap way to beat a very expensive fleet. After the Blue force was sunk, the game was ordered to begin again, with the Blue Team eventually declared the victor.”


16 posted on 01/11/2008 7:50:18 PM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: originalbuckeye

No. Actually the boat that blew a hole in the Cole was an inflatable 4 man boat with a 35 horse hand steared evenrude engine from the 1970s. It was driven by one SUNNI al queda suicide bomber. Many of you have never noticed that Shia never do suicide missions— ever. It’s alway Sunni. Shia hate Sunni. They kill each other every day by the 10s and hundreds in Iraq.(151,000) since we occupied Iraq. The stereotyping of these Arabs is racist and sick substitute for killing the real enemy— Osama Bin Ladin who is basking in freedom in Pakistan where we prop up the DICTATOR that hides him. You really can’t make that up.


17 posted on 01/11/2008 7:58:43 PM PST by Donnaplume
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To: Enterprise

Well there is not a doubt now, but at the time there was a story about one of our subs (the Uss Mephis I think) was in the area at the time and it was rumored they collided with the kursk. they then had an emergency stop in Japan for repairs.

It was months before the Kursk was located and video shot that showed a massive enternal explosion, ( torpedo’s with a history of going hot while still in the sub)

But a little late if the did it. Not saying they did but they did it, but it sure makes me go hmmmm.... supply islambies (islamist+Zombie= islambies) with high explosives and the time of the USS cole’s refueling schedule?....Boom.


18 posted on 01/11/2008 8:04:10 PM PST by Walkingfeather (u)
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To: Flavius

Sounds like the British defeating the Spanish Armada. That isn’t classified. I read about it in grade school.


19 posted on 01/11/2008 8:08:18 PM PST by tryon1ja
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To: Enterprise
>>>Cole was tied up at the dock...<<

I believe she was at anchor in the harbor awaiting a fuel barge. Otherwise you are correct.

I have read the small boat approached at a slow rate of speed, like many waterborne merchants selling trinkets or snacks might. They waved at Navy sailors on deck. In the last 50 or 75 yards they sped up and rammed the hull at high speed.

20 posted on 01/11/2008 8:13:34 PM PST by HardStarboard (Take No Prisoners - We're Out Of Qurans)
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To: HardStarboard

Thanks - that sounds about right.


21 posted on 01/11/2008 8:16:28 PM PST by Enterprise (Those who "betray us" also "Betray U.S." They're called DEMOCRATS!)
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To: Donnaplume

Factually incorrect.

Hizballah = Shi’ia, and they have employed suicide bombers on many occasions, including the bombing of the 1983 US Marine Corps barracks in Lebanon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing

In fact- Suicide bombers were “predominantly” Shi’ia historically. But never mind the details.


22 posted on 01/11/2008 8:50:04 PM PST by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Donnaplume

You wrote- “Osama Bin Ladin who is basking in freedom in Pakistan where we prop up the DICTATOR that hides him. You really can’t make that up.”

Are you a DU plant?

What a bunch of garbage. Were at fault for Bhutto’s death because according to some in the media we pushed for democracy to hard; now we’re evil because we prop a dictator according to you. A few months ago the liberals screamed about the evil Blackwater “mercenaries” and want than banned, then after Bhuttos’s death they ask “Why wasn’t she protected by Blackwater?”

You right about one thing! You can’t make this up! - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/30/wbhutto230.xml


23 posted on 01/11/2008 9:00:31 PM PST by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: originalbuckeye
Didn’t a fast boat do the devastation to the USS Cole during the Clinton administration?

No it was just what appeared to be a harbor supply boat, wanting to sell the Cole fresh produce or something like that.

24 posted on 01/11/2008 9:17:01 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Enterprise
Cole was tied up at the dock

Not quite, she was tied up to the refueling dolphin, a sort of super buoy. From the testimony of then CinC CentCom, General Tommy Franks:

SS COLE met these requirements, and she continued her journey down the Red Sea entering the port of Aden on 12 October. She was moored to the starboard side of the refueling dolphin at 0849 (local Yemen

Also this article from All Hands, the magazine of the US Navy, which states that the dolphin was several hundred yards from the pier. time). At 1000, the Refueling Alignment was verified and, at 1031, Refueling Operations began. At 1118, the attack occurred.

25 posted on 01/11/2008 9:30:12 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: AmericaUnited
This is total BULL!! Yes maybe they could sucker punch a few ships but after that, everything they own of value would be decimated.

True, but AhmaNutJob DOES NOT CARE, in fact he may wish for that to happen. He just wants the 13th Imam to come up out of that well. That actually is said to require something that looks a lot like Armageddon.

26 posted on 01/11/2008 9:32:23 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Sender

um, if they are suicide bombers, why would they think twice?


27 posted on 01/11/2008 9:34:58 PM PST by rahbert
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To: El Gato
At 1000, the Refueling Alignment was verified and, at 1031, Refueling Operations began. At 1118, the attack occurred.

Oops, that sentence belongs at the end of the Tommy Franks quote.

28 posted on 01/11/2008 9:36:04 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: originalbuckeye

If I recall correctly, it was a scow coming alongside to do maintenance painting.


29 posted on 01/11/2008 9:51:14 PM PST by doorgunner69
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To: Walkingfeather

“Pissed off russian putin looks to save face gives ultra high explosives to the Izlambies to get us (supposedly) back for sinking the Kursk. Thoughts?”

Unlikely. Needs more than 2 days from planning to execution.


30 posted on 01/12/2008 4:46:08 AM PST by brooklin
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To: El Gato

Thank you!


31 posted on 01/12/2008 7:03:11 AM PST by Enterprise (Those who "betray us" also "Betray U.S." They're called DEMOCRATS!)
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To: brooklin

Kursk sunk august 14th 2000

USS Cole bombing October 12th 2000

2 days?


32 posted on 01/12/2008 7:25:02 AM PST by Walkingfeather (u)
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To: Red6

ancient history (if true and I have doubts) I was talking relevant history since we invaded and occupied Iraq over wmd that werten’t there.NO SHIA suicide bombers. Its important in determining the excuse for occupying another country with your kids and your money. Don’t you think its important?


33 posted on 01/12/2008 7:37:56 AM PST by Donnaplume
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To: rahbert

Good point. Continue to sink them, then. Deck gunners, fire at will!


34 posted on 01/12/2008 7:48:18 AM PST by Sender (Feel like, I feel like a poke chop san'wich)
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To: Walkingfeather

Ahh... yeah, got to pay attention.

Still the russians are unlikely to have had anything to do with the Cole. Not in their interests.


35 posted on 01/12/2008 8:08:22 AM PST by brooklin
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To: Donnaplume

I. Your first point: Shi’ia suicide bombers

Israel is rocked by suicide bombers who are shi’ia. We have been attacked by suicide bombers who are shi’ia. In Iraq you have suicide attacks on convoys etc. by people who are shi’ia.

What you are doing now is engaging in the act of “redefining” what you said so that you can save face. Even in the spirit of what you are now trying to redefine your words of having meant, you are still wrong.

If you keep narrowing it down you might eventually be right. Exclude suicide attacks that failed, men, with rifle or RPG, outside Iraq, and in the past you can be right with the statement: “There have been no successful Iraqi Shi’ia suicide bombers in Iraq since we invaded.” Send me your email address in private and I can send you a video from where we shot dead three shi’ia men trying to do a suicide attack on a traffic control point near Sadr City (Nov 2003). But since this was no attack with a “bomb,” rather small arms and RPGs your definition would not apply.

II. Your second point: The liberal battle cry “No WMD!”

Then you engage in the act of singling out one single aspect and ignoring everything else to make some moot point which is intended to attack the legitimacy of the action in Iraq.

• What is proven is that Iraq had missiles in excess of the maximum range allowed by UN mandate, as they fired them into Kuwait at the begin of the war.

• That Saddam was paying money to families of suicide bombers who were attacking targets in Israel (Some of them Shi’ia BTW – but never mind that we exclude that from our narrow definition right?).

• That US planes enforcing the no-fly zones were being engaged nearly on a weekly basis with AAA and SAMs.

• That he violated the no fly and no wheel zones on various occasions and we had to build up troops several times in response.

• That UN weapon inspectors were restricted and harassed to the point where they were unable to perform their assigned duties and left.

• That various terrorists involved in past attacks such as the Achila Laura and various others were living as free men in Baghdad with the knowledge of this regime.

Furthermore, you might want to read the report on Iraq and WMD, because it does not state there “were no WMD,” an oversimplified generalization stated in the media but not stated in the CIA and Congressional reports. In fact some WMD have indeed been found and even a media that attempts to spin it usually refers to it as “No **substantial** amounts of WMD were found” (Newsweek 2004). Maybe you can tell the two soldiers exposed to Sarin gas in 2004 that their injuries are “minor” like the media did (This came after the Newsweek article): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4997808 But you’re probably right. There were absolutely no WMD found – None what so ever.

Summary

In both points you or those feeding you the horse $hit are simply playing games by redefining the scenario so that you can make some point which is moot anyhow. By narrowing the scope you eventually focus on one aspect WMD; since this is the one point where the anti-war agenda at least thinks they have an argument. You then define Shi’ia attacks only in recent times, in Iraq, and only those that use bombs, so that you can paint some picture that isn’t accurate. Let me clue you in, Muqtada al Sadr and his militia are Shi’ia. Iran which is partially financing, logistically supporting an insurgency and some Militia’s is Shi’ia. You have terrorist groups in Iraq that are Shi’ia.

You’re attempting to make some points on false premises which are essentially moot anyhow. We can not cut our losses with Iraq because the price would be too high. May it be the instability of the Middle East, the rise in power for Iran and Russia, loss in confidence in the US world wide, the massive humanitarian disaster that would ensue, the loss over vital strategic resources which would now fall under a despot regime may it be Iraq or Iran power based…….. there is no alternative besides foreword and establishing a self governing and sustaining republic of Iraq. There is no option, we must finish Iraq and achieve a positive resolution.


36 posted on 01/12/2008 9:28:27 AM PST by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Last Dakotan
Apparently discussing classified documents when American sailors are at risk isn't a problem at the NY Times.

This thread should be immediately pulled.

37 posted on 01/12/2008 10:05:39 AM PST by Doe Eyes
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To: Flavius

“a classified, $250 million war game in which small, agile speedboats swarmed a naval convoy to inflict devastating damage on more powerful warships.”

we needed $250M to learn what the USS Cole attack already showed?

someone should send Ron Paul the memo.


38 posted on 01/12/2008 10:07:43 AM PST by enough_idiocy (Thompson/Romney '08)
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To: Last Dakotan
Apparently discussing classified documents when American sailors are at risk isn't a problem at the NY Times.

Security classifications are to the NY Times what copyright laws are to the ChiComms.

39 posted on 01/12/2008 10:15:30 AM PST by COBOL2Java (May the Lord bless and keep Hillary Clinton - far away from the White House!)
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To: Donnaplume
Let me give you an example of how ignorant your statement is even if it were true, which it is not:

Mohammed Bouyeri is shi’ia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)

He shot and stabbed Theo van Gogh dead because he produced a film critical of Islam.

But since this was not in Iraq, since this wasn’t a suicide bombing, this does not count according to your “definition.”

40 posted on 01/12/2008 11:24:43 AM PST by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Flavius
Personally I think we should bring back a modern day version of the PT boat, mount a 35mm and a chain gun plus some rotary launchers with a mix of air to air and assorted missiles, and of course a 50cal or two. I know the Navy has more high tech vessels but its quantity we need not gold plated holes in the water, heck they could even be remote controlled.
41 posted on 01/12/2008 11:36:10 AM PST by Eye of Unk
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To: Flavius
I kinda wonder how many of these type of boats the DEA has confiscated and if they could be pressed into service with some deck guns and TOW missiles.
42 posted on 01/12/2008 11:46:03 AM PST by Eye of Unk
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To: Flavius
in which small, agile speedboats swarmed a naval convoy to inflict devastating damage on more powerful warships.


43 posted on 01/12/2008 11:49:43 AM PST by G8 Diplomat (Creatures are divided into 6 kingdoms: Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Monera, Protista, & Saudi Arabia)
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To: Flavius
I remember reading somewhere that the USN has some level of ability to defend itself against small, thin skinned vessels at close and intermediate ranges.

Description: A pirate skiff burns after being hit by several rounds from a 25mm gun aboard guided-missile destroyer USS Porter (DDG 78).

Description: Gunner's Mate Seaman Gabino Martinez fires a MK-38 25mm machine gun system during a training exercise aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Boxer (LHD 4).

Description: Gunners Mate 3rd Class Thomas Madden stationed aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) shoots an M-60 machine gun,

Description: Gunner's Mate 2nd Class Benjamin Clark, watches as Photographer's Mate 2nd Class Herbert Banks, fires a M-60 machine gun aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Saipan (LHA 2).

Description: A burst of flames leaps from the barrel of a .50-caliber machine gun during a security team weapons qualification on the fantail of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman (CVN 75).

Description: Fire Controlman Steven Baumgartner from Oelwein, Iowa, assigned to Combat Systems Department aboard the guided missile cruiser USS Normandy (CG 60), fires the twin .50 caliber machine gun

Description: Phalanx MK-15 Close In Weapons Systems (CIWS) fires a high-speed computer controlled, radar guided, 20 mm Gatling gun

Description: Smoke billows from the five-inch deck gun aboard the Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Lassen during a calibration test fire.

Description: Aviation Ordnanceman 2nd Class Phillip Vaughan fires a GAU-17/A 0.30 caliber (7.62mm) Minigun.

Description: CH-53D "Sea Stallion" heavy assault transport helicopter crewmen, Sergeant Todd Abbott and Sergeant Andrew McInally man their .50-caliber machine guns

Description: An AH-1 Cobra with the amphibious transport dock ship USS Austin (LPD 4) trailing the amphibious assault ship USS Nassau (LHA 4).

44 posted on 01/12/2008 4:36:18 PM PST by fso301
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To: Donnaplume

I really have to know!

Are you:

• The Ron Paul voter.

• A DU plant dropping liberal innuendoes on a conservative blog.

Seeing how you attempt to string together money and illegitimacy (The talking points of the Ron Paul camp) I assume that’s where you stand.


45 posted on 01/13/2008 9:44:46 AM PST by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

So US officials also failed in the bhutto case for not ensuring the requested help by security contractors ???

It must be one phone call to Islamabad to make such things happen !

How embarrasing is that ? Black Water is not only involved in mercyless killing of innocent people but now they could have safed bhuttos live and where not allowed to because islamabad acted up on the US ?!

You must be seriously annoyed by the weak performance of your security organisations especially after they performed so embarrasingly sloppy before the 9/11 attacks.


46 posted on 01/14/2008 9:31:32 AM PST by Rummenigge (there are people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Rummenigge
I can’t make sense of your gibberish.

Explain yourself.

47 posted on 01/14/2008 9:46:33 AM PST by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

here’s help:

http://www.starfall.com/n/level-a/learn-to-read/play.htm?f


48 posted on 01/14/2008 9:58:31 AM PST by Rummenigge (there are people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Rummenigge

You didn’t explain yourself.

But I’ll respond guessing as to what you attempted to convey in your post.

Organizations like DynCorp’s, Triple Canopy, Aires, and Blackwater are excellent. Karzai’s life has been spared many times because of the professionals that surround him. It is the liberal, people like you actually who are quick to condemn an organization like Blackwater (But have no clue about) and then a few months later blame Bhutto’s death on the lack of an organization you wanted banned just a few months earlier.

Here’s the bottom line. Pakistan is not under US control and the US presence there (There is some in reality) is very low key and largely clandestine/covert. It has been that way for years. Surrounding Bhutto with a bunch of Gringo’s that look like poster child storm-troopers for the most part, carrying big guns, might not go over well; not even with those who supported her. However, it is ironic that those who screamed the loudest about the evil Blackwater months past, today blame her death on the lack of this security from this organization.


49 posted on 01/14/2008 2:25:39 PM PST by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Rummenigge

“mercyless killing of innocent people “

Besides pandering to emotion using emotionally laden words, this has not been proven and is typical of your sort. There doesn’t need to be proof or anything else, you already know the answer because you “feel” a certain way. Besides, this sort of nonsense fails any test of reason. There was a German who was a cannibal, are all Germans cannibals? I heard some Germans today are Nazi’s, are you a Nazi (Thought you’d enjoy that one)? I heard the GSG9 executed a terrorist at a train station, are they merciless killers?

There are many of these sorts of firms in the world. Of the top five, three are US based.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com
http://www.dyn-intl.com
http://www.triplecanopy.com/triplecanopy/en/home

What do these firms have? They are established firms with years of experience, networks and interface links to foreign states as well as other US governmental agencies. They have developed procedures, training, as well as the infrastructure to handle large and high risk jobs. They operate on a scale and at a level unimaginable to most; even developing their own weapons or protective systems where buying off the shelf is insufficient or unsatisfactory, operating their own little fleet of helicopters etc. They recruit top notch people and they pay small fortunes because it’s difficult to get good people with lots of experience to do dangerous jobs. In all of your Germany you have nothing comparable.


50 posted on 01/14/2008 2:49:53 PM PST by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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