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Founder's Quotes - John Jay
Columbia University ^ | 01/14/2007 | Columbia University, others

Posted on 01/14/2008 5:52:34 AM PST by Loud Mime

John Jay

John Jay authored Federalist Papers #2, #3, #4, #5 and #64. The first four concerned the dangers of foreign influence in U.S. politics and 64 concerned the powers of the Senate.

A Brief Biography of John Jay

John Jay's long and eventful life, from 1745 to 1829, encompassed the movement for American independence and the creation of a new nation — both processes in which he played a full part. His achievements were many, varied and of key importance in the birth and early years of the fledgling nation. Although he did not initially favor separation from Britain, he was nonetheless among the American commissioners who negotiated the peace with Great Britain that secured independence for the former colonies. Serving the new republic he was Secretary for Foreign Affairs under the Articles of Confederation, a contributor to the Federalist, the first Chief Justice of the United States, negotiator of the 1794 "Jay Treaty" with Great Britain, and a two-term Governor of the State of New York. In his personal life, Jay embraced a wide range of social and cultural concerns.

His paternal grandfather, Augustus (1665-1751), established the Jay family's presence in America. Unable to remain in France when the rights of Protestants were abolished by the revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685, Augustus eventually settled in New York where, with an advantageous marriage and a thriving mercantile business, he established a strong foundation for his descendants. His son Peter, like Augustus a merchant, had ten children with his wife Mary Van Cortlandt, seven of them surviving into adulthood. John was the sixth of these seven. Shortly after John's birth, his family moved from Manhattan to Rye in order to provide a more salubrious environment for the raising of John's elder siblings, two of whom had been struck by blindness following the smallpox epidemic of 1739 and two others of whom suffered from mental handicaps.

Educated in his early years by private tutors, Jay entered the newly-founded King's College, the future Columbia University, in the late summer of 1760. There, he underwent the conventional classical education, graduating in 1764, when he became a law clerk in the office of Benjamin Kissam. On admission to the bar in 1768 Jay established a legal practice with Robert R. Livingston, Jr., scion of the "Lower Manor" branch of the Livingston family, before operating his own law office from 1771. Among other tasks during these years, Jay served as clerk of the New York-New Jersey Boundary Commission.

This is an excerpt. There is more at Columbia University’s Website. CLICK HERE for more information.

The University has a wonderful database of his materials here.

“As the select assemblies for choosing the President, as well as the State legislatures who appoint the senators, will in general be composed of the most enlightened and respectable citizens, there is reason to presume that their attention and their votes will be directed to those men only who have become the most distinguished by their abilities and virtue, and in whom the people perceive just grounds for confidence.”
John Jay, Federalist 64

Obviously, the 17th Amendment, which caused the Senators to be elected and represent the people instead of the States,
changed the entry requirements for the Senate. I would say that this was not an improvement.

“As to the position that "the people always mean well," that they always mean to say and do what they believe to be right and just - it may be popular, but it can not be true. The word people applies to all the individual inhabitants of a country. . . . That portion of them who individually mean well never was, nor until the millennium will be, considerable. Pure democracy, like pure rum, easily produces intoxication and with it a thousand pranks and fooleries. I do not expect mankind will, before the millennium, be what they ought to be and therefore, in my opinion, every political theory which does not regard them as being what they are, will prove abortive. Yet I wish to see all unjust and unnecessary discriminations everywhere abolished, and that the time may come when all our inhabitants of every color and discrimination shall be free and equal partakers of our political liberties.”
John Jay

“"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
John Jay to Jedidiah Morse February 28, 1797

"The jury has the right to judge both the law as well as the fact in controversy."
John Jay Georgia v. Brailsford, 1794

“I saw one excellency was within my reach - it was brevity and I determined to obtain it.”
John Jay

“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
John Jay, Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.”
John Jay [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]
Web source

The only way to be loved is to be and to appear lovely; to possess and display kindness, benevolence, tenderness; to be free from selfishness and to be alive to the welfare of others.
John Jay

The constitution of the United States is to receive a reasonable interpretation of its language, and its powers, keeping in view the objects and purposes, for which those powers were conferred. By a reasonable interpretation, we mean, that in case the words are susceptible of two different senses, the one strict, the other more enlarged, that should be adopted, which is most consonant with the apparent objects and intent of the Constitution."
Joseph Story (Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833)

"Nothing is more certain than that a general profligacy and corruption of manners make a people ripe for destruction. A good form of government may hold the rotten materials together for some time, but beyond a certain pitch, even the best constitution will be ineffectual, and slavery must ensue."
John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men, 1776

"Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them."
Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833

"No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and Virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders."
Samuel Adams, letter to James Warren, November 4, 1775
Thanks, Bigun!

Others:

Here's to the red of it,
There's not a thread of it,
No, not a shred of it,
In all the spread of it,
From foot to head,
But heroes bled for it,
Faced steel and lead for it,
Precious blood shed for it,
Bathing in red.
A Toast to the Flag – unknown


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: federalistpapers; foundingfathers; godsgravesglyphs; johnjay; quotes

1 posted on 01/14/2008 5:52:36 AM PST by Loud Mime
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To: Vision; definitelynotaliberal; Mother Mary; FoxInSocks; 300magnum; NonValueAdded; sauropod; ...

PING!


2 posted on 01/14/2008 5:54:53 AM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: Loud Mime

Founders bump.


3 posted on 01/14/2008 6:01:33 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: Loud Mime

Just started reading The Federalist Papers. Should be required reading in school.


4 posted on 01/14/2008 6:02:40 AM PST by GregB (President of the Tony Snow fan club in Clymer Penna!!!)
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To: Loud Mime

John Jay was a titan. Of course, he was surrounded by such men.


5 posted on 01/14/2008 6:03:47 AM PST by pissant (Duncan Hunter: Warrior, Statesman, Conservative)
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To: pissant
John Jay was a titan. Of course, he was surrounded by such men.

Good Point! But it does make you wonder what happened to "the other guys." You know, the ones who were banging on the windows of the Constitutional Convention and crying to the press about being excluded from the "people's right to know."

I wonder how they kept those idiots at bay.

6 posted on 01/14/2008 6:08:05 AM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: Loud Mime

“Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.”
Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833

This quote has never been more true than in this campaign for the Republican nomination.


7 posted on 01/14/2008 6:08:18 AM PST by A Strict Constructionist (We have become an oligarchy not a Republic.)
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To: Loud Mime

They kept the windows shut, if I recall, in sweltering heat.


8 posted on 01/14/2008 6:09:31 AM PST by pissant (Duncan Hunter: Warrior, Statesman, Conservative)
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To: GregB

About two years ago I went to a college campus and asked three questions:

What form of government do we have in the United States?
What is the only guarantee in the Constitution?
What are the Federalist Papers?

Only ONE person knew two answers - out of over 100 students.

Virtually every person had no correct answer.

You’re right, they should be a subject of study by every student.


9 posted on 01/14/2008 6:14:20 AM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: Loud Mime
" I would say that this was not an improvement."

"Understatement of the Day" Nomination here!

10 posted on 01/14/2008 6:18:09 AM PST by Redbob
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To: pissant
They kept the windows shut, if I recall, in sweltering heat.

I doubt if they wore the costumes that the portrait depicted.

11 posted on 01/14/2008 6:19:38 AM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: Loud Mime

Was at it the John Jay College Of Criminal Justice (The City University of New York)????

because I have a feeling that, that school foists as much if not more misinformation about our republic as any of the other colleges across the nation.


12 posted on 01/14/2008 6:21:26 AM PST by Vaquero (" an armed society is a polite society" Heinlein "MOLON LABE!" Leonidas of Sparta)
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To: Vaquero

Actually, it was at Cypress College in Cal-lee-fore-nee-yah, just down the street from where Tiger Woods went to high school.


13 posted on 01/14/2008 6:25:18 AM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: pissant

Regarding the windows. That was the common thinking that it would prevent Disease, if I recall.

I love that quote about the jury, haven’t seen that before. It would change many outcomes of many trials if it still was practiced.

“The jury has the right to judge both the law as well as the fact in controversy.”
John Jay Georgia v. Brailsford, 1794


14 posted on 01/14/2008 6:43:41 AM PST by CJ Wolf
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To: CJ Wolf
I love that quote about the jury, haven’t seen that before. It would change many outcomes of many trials if it still was practiced.

Isn't it the same as "Jury Nullification", which is practiced on occasion, today?

15 posted on 01/14/2008 7:02:23 AM PST by varon (Allegiance to the constitution, always. Allegiance to a political party, never.)
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To: varon
If you google "jury nullification" you'll find some interesting sites. One had a "booklet" for jurors.

In addition, I found these quotes:

Men do not make laws. They do but discover them. Laws must be justified by something more than the will of the majority. They must rest on the eternal foundation of righteousness. That state is most fortunate in its form of government which has the aptest instruments for the discovery of law.
Calvin Coolidge,
to the Massachusetts State Senate, January 7, 1914

I was summoned for jury duty some years ago, and during voir dire, the attorney asked me whether I could obey the judge's instructions. I answered, "It all depends upon what those instructions are." Irritatingly, the judge asked me to explain myself. I explained that if I were on a jury back in the 1850s, and a person was on trial for violating the Fugitive Slave Act by assisting a runaway slave, I would vote for acquittal regardless of the judge's instructions. The reason is that slavery is unjust and any law supporting it is unjust. Needless to say, I was dismissed from jury duty.
Walter Williams, 11 July 2007

16 posted on 01/14/2008 7:26:03 AM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: Loud Mime

I found the rest:

“A TOAST TO THE FLAG”

(c) by John Jay Daly
of Washington, D. C. (1888-1976)

Here’s to the Red of it –

There’s not a thread of it,
No, nor a shred of it
In all the spread of it,
From foot to head
But heroes bled for it,
Faced steel and lead for it,
Precious blood shed for it,
Bathing it Red!

Here’s to the White of it –

Thrilled by the sight of it,
Who knows the right of it
But feels the might of it
Through day and night?
Womanhood’s care for it
Made manhood dare for it;
Purity’s pray’r for it
Keeps it so White!

Here’s to the Blue of it –

Beauteous view of it,
Heavenly hue of it,
Star-spangled dew of it
Constant and true;
Diadems gleam for it,
Liberty’s beam for it
Brightens the Blue!

Here’s to the Whole of it –

Stars, stripes and pole of it,
Body and soul of it,
O, and the roll of it,
Sun shining through;
Hearts in accord for it
Swear by the sword for it,
Thanking the Lord for it,
Red, White and Blue!


17 posted on 01/14/2008 8:47:08 AM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: Loud Mime
What is the only guarantee in the Constitution?

Is it a guarantee that I won't be offended by any person, place or thing?

Health-care?

Happiness?

A large-screen HDTV?

I give up...what is it??

/ s

18 posted on 01/14/2008 9:07:46 AM PST by Lou L
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To: Loud Mime

I loved each and every one of those quotes.


19 posted on 01/14/2008 9:19:17 AM PST by Greg F (Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
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To: A Strict Constructionist; Pharmboy; SunkenCiv

bttt

“Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens...”


20 posted on 01/14/2008 10:50:34 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Loud Mime; metmom

bttt

What form of government do we have in the United States?
What is the only guarantee in the Constitution?
What are the Federalist Papers?

Only ONE person knew two answers - out of over 100 students.


21 posted on 01/14/2008 10:51:45 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Lou L

Usually the people would guess “life liberty, etc..

I would say “wrong document.” Then ask “Do you KNOW, not can you guess.”


22 posted on 01/14/2008 11:10:40 AM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: GregB; Loud Mime
You need to read both the "Federalist Papers" and "Anti-Federalist Papers" at the same time and in an interleaved manner.

The papers were published simultaneously in the form of a debate with each side stating an issue and defending it from the other side. The papeback Mentor edition edited by Ralph Ketchum has a chronology of publication in the appendix. If you read both sets of papers interleaved in strict order of publication, you can watch the ebb and flow, the point and counterpoint, of the debate over ratification of the Constitution in New York. For example, Hamilton will make a point in a "Federalist Paper" that is answered by "Brutus" in an "Anti-Federalist Paper", which in turn receives a riposte from Madison in yet another "Federalist Paper". Reading them this way clarifies the scope of the debate.

Eighteenth Century English is quite a trial for today's readers who are used to a shorter sentence structure. I've found that one has to read a given paragraph 3 to 5 times to distill all the meaning the writer has poured into it. But it's worth the effort. Just don't rush it.

23 posted on 01/14/2008 12:54:53 PM PST by Publius (A = A)
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To: Loud Mime
Thank you for posting this. I wasn't aware of Jay's connection to the wealthy and famous Dutch patroon family of the Van Cortlandts. I knew about his closeness to the Federalist patroon family of the Livingstons, but not about the partnership.

When you read the "Federalist Papers", pay close attention to the prose style. Hamilton comes across as a brilliant highly paid corporate lawyer -- which he had become by that time -- and dazzles you with his intellect. Madison comes across as the earnest student of history he was, one who had ready everything written by the ancients. (I'd ask Hamilton over to entertain a dinner party full of brilliant people, but if I wanted a friend over for a beer, I'd pick Madison.)

Jay comes across as the comic of the group with a puckish sense of humor. He likes to needle his opponents, not dazzle them or convince them with historic analogies. It's easy to spot a Jay essay.

24 posted on 01/14/2008 1:02:17 PM PST by Publius (A = A)
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To: Publius

I’ve read the Anti-Federalist papers about ten years ago and enjoyed them. They did have their points.

Jay sounds like he was a good attorney who ran a light courtroom in life and press. I imagine that when your life involves deep study it’s hard to stop thinking of it (When I studied chess I avoided Italian restaurants because of their checkered tablecloths - if the olive oil bottle were a knight it could take the pepper mill).

My plan is to keep Monday’s threads focused on one founder, then Thursday/Friday’s on a good mix of quotes. Working on Jay was from a point of curiosity; I knew little about the man and now know a little more.

I’ve noted the more personal style of Madison, he’s easier to read than Hamilton. Sometimes I find myself putting my hands over my ears and reading the sentences out loud so I fully understand them. Hey, if singers do the same in the studio.... Anyway, I gather that Madison could appear today for a chat at the pub he would like a draw of Sam Adams.... ;)

I may miss one of these threads because my Aunt is 99 and hospitalized....she’s not doing well. Since my father has dimensia I’m the next in line for the legal stuff.


25 posted on 01/14/2008 1:35:57 PM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: Publius
You need to read both the "Federalist Papers" and "Anti-Federalist Papers" at the same time and in an interleaved manner.

Hear Here!

In fact this should be a requirement for graduation from High School!

26 posted on 01/14/2008 3:43:07 PM PST by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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To: Bigun

^5 on that one!


27 posted on 01/14/2008 5:24:58 PM PST by Loud Mime (It is easier to wash dirt off your hands than blood = Gladiator)
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To: varon

In 1988, in U.S. v. Krzyske, the jury asked the judge about jury nullification. The judge responded “There is no such thing as valid jury nullification.” The jury convicted the defendant, and the judge’s answer was upheld on appeal.

In 1997, in U.S. v. Thomas[20], the Second Circuit ruled that jurors can be removed if there is evidence that they intend to nullify the law, under Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure 23(b).

We categorically reject the idea that, in a society committed to the rule of law, jury nullification is desirable or that courts may permit it to occur when it is within their authority to prevent. Accordingly, we conclude that a juror who intends to nullify the applicable law is no less subject to dismissal than is a juror who disregards the court’s instructions due to an event or relationship that renders him biased or otherwise unable to render a fair and impartial verdict.


28 posted on 01/14/2008 10:06:15 PM PST by CJ Wolf
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To: george76

I’m surprised I’ve never seen anyone draw a loopy parallel between Alcibiades and GWB. :’)


29 posted on 01/14/2008 10:16:38 PM PST by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________Profile updated Sunday, December 30, 2007)
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To: CJ Wolf
We categorically reject the idea that, in a society committed to the rule of law, jury nullification is desirable or that courts may permit it to occur when it is within their authority to prevent.

LOL!

Hundreds of years of jurisprudence says differently:

U.S. vs. DOUGHERTY (1972) [D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals]:
The jury has...."unreviewable and irreversible power...to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge."

Justice OLIVER WENDELL HOLMES (Horning v. District of Columbia, 249 U.S. 596 (1920)):
"The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both law and fact."

U.S. SUPREME COURT (State of Georgia v. Brailsford, 3 DALL. 1,4):
"...it is presumed, that the juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that the courts are the best judges of law. But still, both objects are within your power of decision. You have a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy."

------

Jury nullification is what gave the People the ability to judge the government and to prevent it from usurping any power that it did not legitimately possess:

LYSANDER SPOONER (An Essay on the Trial by Jury, 1852):
"The authority to judge what are the powers of the government, and what are the liberties of the people, must necessarily be vested in one or the other of the parties themselves--the government, or the people; because there is no third party to whom it can be entrusted. If the authority be vested in the government, the government is absolute, and the people have no liberties except such as the government sees fit to indulge them with."
"This preposterous doctrine, that "ignorance of the law excuses no one," is asserted by courts because it is an indispensable one to the maintenance of absolute power in the government."
"For more than six hundred years--that is, since Magna Carta, in 1215, there has been no clearer principle of English or American constitutional law, than that, in criminal cases, it is not only the right and duty of juries to judge what are the facts, what is the law, and what was the moral intent of the accused; but that it is also their right, and their primary and paramount duty, to judge of the justice of the law, and to hold all laws invalid, that are, in their opinion, unjust or oppressive, and all persons guiltless in violating, or resisting the execution of, such laws."

4TH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS (United States v. Moylan, 417F.2d1006, 1969):
"If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contrary to the evidence...If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision."

30 posted on 01/18/2008 6:28:53 AM PST by MamaTexan (** Government was not made to create the Law, but to follow it **)
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To: Pharmboy

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Note: this topic is from 2008. Thanks george76 for the ping, thanks LoudMime for the topic.

Blast from the Past.

Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
 

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31 posted on 03/15/2011 7:29:00 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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