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‘Renaissance Couldn’t Have Happened Without Muslim Input’
Arab News ^ | 15 January 2008 | Hassna’a Mokhtar

Posted on 01/15/2008 5:15:30 AM PST by forkinsocket

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To: Vaquero

Seems to me I just recently read in the Smithsonian Magazine about the destruction of the great library in Alexandria, Egypt by the conquering mohammedens. Maybe that was just an isolated incident, though.


51 posted on 01/15/2008 6:51:31 AM PST by mathurine
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To: PapaBear3625
People tend to forget that after the Western Roman Empire started coming apart, the Eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine empire centered in Constantinople) was still going strong, until it fell to Muslim invasion

The fall of Byzantium followed by the Muslim strangulation of trade on the Silk Road led directly to the age of Discovery by the Europeans in order to find a cheaper and more reliable East-West trade route.
52 posted on 01/15/2008 6:55:38 AM PST by yuleeyahoo
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To: norwaypinesavage
Well....The proximate cause of the renaissance is the fleeing of Byzantine scholars to Florence , Rome, and other Italian city-states. They brought with them classic authors of Greek and Roman antiquity, whose works had been largely lost in the west since the Fall of Rome. Those works were translated into the vernacular, these translations inspired contemporary scholars-and viola, we have a renaissance in Italy . (Followed by renaissances in other European countries a few decades to a century or so later.)

Why were those Byzantine scholars fleeing to the west?

Because Byzantium was under attack from moslem hordes.

Giving moslems credit for the renaissance is like giving a burglar credit for thwarting later attempted robberies, because his initial burglary made the victim install a better alarm system.

53 posted on 01/15/2008 6:57:23 AM PST by Verloona Ti
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To: PapaBear3625

To be completely honest it was the 4th Crusade with crippled the Byzantine Empire and left it ripe for the taking.


54 posted on 01/15/2008 7:00:06 AM PST by Raymann
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To: wideawake

And I thank you for your very interesting and informative post.


55 posted on 01/15/2008 7:05:19 AM PST by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: Katydidnt

Thank you for the link.


56 posted on 01/15/2008 7:06:45 AM PST by HoosierHawk
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To: forkinsocket

I minored in Portuguese and we studied the history of the Muslims and their achievements on the Iberian peninsula. There is a lot of truth to this - with the West overlooking a lot of the achievements by the Islamic empire.

Makes one wonder why that dropped off. No denying that it did.


57 posted on 01/15/2008 7:12:24 AM PST by tortdog
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To: biggerten

“Try doing algebra some time, and math without arabic numerals”

You mean the symbols that the arabs call Hindu numerals?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals


58 posted on 01/15/2008 7:12:33 AM PST by Unassuaged (I have shocking data relevant to the conversation!)
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To: Raymann
To be completely honest it was the 4th Crusade with crippled the Byzantine Empire and left it ripe for the taking.

And the 4th Crusade was in response to raging Buddhists?

59 posted on 01/15/2008 7:14:47 AM PST by PapaBear3625
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To: biggerten
Try doing algebra some time, and math without arabic numerals.

Which the Muslim conquerers of India got from Indian mathematicians, then re-labeled as their own

60 posted on 01/15/2008 7:16:29 AM PST by PapaBear3625
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To: swain_forkbeard
Fibocacci published the Liber Abaci based upon what he learned from Arabs.

And from Venetians. And from Persians. And from Greeks.

Arabs were not his sole tutors, and he knew enough about the system of calculation he was using to know that it was Indian, not Arabic.

my understanding is that some of the Greek texts, especially in mathematics, were eventually translated into Latin and vernacular from Arabic translations.

The argument can be made that several texts were only available in Arabic because Muslim invasions of Greek territories and the destruction of Greek monasteries had rendered the preferred Greek originals unavailable.

It's hard to call that a net contribution to scholarship.

I would also point out that many of these Arabic texts were translated and preserved by Arabic-speaking Jews, not by Muslims.

My point is not that there was absolutely no interaction with Muslim sources in the Renaissance, but that Muslim contributions are far, far less than what Muslim and philoIslamic sources would have people believe.

If the Muslim invasions had never happened, Hindu and Persian mathematical research would have continued, and countless treasures of Greek antiquity in every field would have survived.

As it stands today, all the surviving texts of the Athenian golden age can fit in an standard set of bookshelves from Home Depot. And that's not the fault of all the Greek monks who studiously preserved those texts until they were murdered by janissaries.

61 posted on 01/15/2008 7:16:32 AM PST by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Katydidnt

That’s the whole point, to take Christ out of everything.

That COMMON era crap just irks me to no end.


62 posted on 01/15/2008 7:17:45 AM PST by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: tortdog

Don’t know about Spain, but I know that it’s taught in Portugal.


63 posted on 01/15/2008 7:18:07 AM PST by forkinsocket
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To: PapaBear3625

Constantinople was a Christian city...and they sacked it, not the Muslims. By the time the Muslims got to it less then 200 years later, the city had shrunk so much that it had individual villages inside the walls.


64 posted on 01/15/2008 7:26:59 AM PST by Raymann
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To: 17th Miss Regt
So you openly admit that you are a member of the terrorist group Al Gebra?

I will only say that once I was discovered to have instruments of math instruction....

But let's not protract this discussion . . .

65 posted on 01/15/2008 7:32:56 AM PST by Tanniker Smith (Geek Squad -- if you're desperate and don't need a PC for a month, we're here for you.)
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To: Tanniker Smith; The Spirit Of Allegiance

ping to post 50 and 65


66 posted on 01/15/2008 7:37:19 AM PST by Tanniker Smith (Geek Squad -- if you're desperate and don't need a PC for a month, we're here for you.)
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To: Tanniker Smith

And with some versions, it goes on and on. Only math dweebs can really appreciate this stuff!


67 posted on 01/15/2008 7:37:55 AM PST by 17th Miss Regt
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To: MrB
Whenever you see historical events referred to as BCE and CE, rather than BC and AD, be prepared for a leftist, anti-Western, anti-Christian screed.
68 posted on 01/15/2008 7:38:05 AM PST by Wallace T.
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To: 17th Miss Regt
LOL

if you only knew . . .

69 posted on 01/15/2008 7:40:43 AM PST by Tanniker Smith (Geek Squad -- if you're desperate and don't need a PC for a month, we're here for you.)
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To: biggerten
Try doing algebra some time, and math without arabic numerals.

Diophantus of Egypt is credited as the "father of Algebra" (400 years before Mohammed), and Algebra was developed gradually over centuries from China to India to Persia. Arabic numerals predated Islam. That is the point. Arab culture produced much, but post-Islamic conquest, those developments declined rapidly.

70 posted on 01/15/2008 7:40:57 AM PST by montag813
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To: Wallace T.
My favorite was in the forward of a "... for Dummies" book that I was glancing through while stuck on a checkout line. It said that it used "BCE" and "CE" as preferable and more tolerable or more inclusive or somesuch nonsense.

The book? "The Bible for Dummies".

I kid you not.

71 posted on 01/15/2008 7:42:15 AM PST by Tanniker Smith (Geek Squad -- if you're desperate and don't need a PC for a month, we're here for you.)
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To: Tanniker Smith

I am not familiar with “The Bible for Dummies”, but I suspect it was not prepared by conservative evangelicals.


72 posted on 01/15/2008 7:47:16 AM PST by Wallace T.
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To: forkinsocket

By chasing Christians out of the middle east?


73 posted on 01/15/2008 7:52:26 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: wideawake
It seems the mistake being repeatedely stated in this thread is that Arab cultural achievement peaked before Islam. Was it not roughly 800-1300 or so? Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, Alhazen...etc. Then an anti-ratioanlist reaction set in.

There was also a great period of Muslim-Jewish cooperation at the time with Maimonides in Egypt.

Certain Arab thinkers proposed something close to heliocentric theory centuries before Copernicus did.
74 posted on 01/15/2008 9:29:55 AM PST by Borges
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To: Vaquero

‘Renaissance Couldn’t Have Happened Without Muslim Input’

These towel hats, currently living in the 6th century, have the nerve to imply they are the seeds of western knowlege.

What arrogant @$$wipes.

Your attitude is not very useful, I think. Civilizations are interconnected in all kinds of ways. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that. I’m feeling too lazy right now to actually look anything up, but to give a small example, I went to the National Folk Festival this summer and heard, among other things, classical Persian music. I was surprised at the similarity to classical Indian music. This is not surprising, considering the geographical proximity of ancient Persia to India. Various traders were instrumental in spreading cultural influences.
The name-calling (towel hats, arrogant @$$wipes) does nothing to protect us from Islamic extremists. In fact, it helps them by further alienating more moderate Arabs.


75 posted on 01/15/2008 9:43:26 AM PST by beejaa
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To: 50sDad

Rockefeller showed them how to pump oil.


76 posted on 01/15/2008 9:55:15 AM PST by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Pietro

“This article is a piece of nothing.”

And from the Arab News no less. Go figure.


77 posted on 01/15/2008 9:58:50 AM PST by Panzerlied ("We shall never surrender!")
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To: beejaa

It still sounds too much like the strange-looking sheep trying to explain away the wolf’s tail dragging along behind him.


78 posted on 01/15/2008 10:02:26 AM PST by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Borges
It seems the mistake being repeatedely stated in this thread is that Arab cultural achievement peaked before Islam.

It would be more accurate to say that Syrian, Greek, Persian and Coptic cultural achievement peaked before Islam mostly because Islam conquered those cultures and crippled them with shahada, jizyah and jihad.

Avicenna was a Persians who flourished in the Bukhara area in the first half of the eleventh century. Bukhara was militarily conquered by the Arabs in 750. They tried to rule and convert it for a hundred years without success until around 840 the Saman clan - prominent Zoroastrian nobles who converted to Islam - made it their capital.

The largely Zoroastrian population at that point began converting to Islam.

It is possible that Avicenna was only a third generation Muslim and still had Zoroastrian relatives.

Alhazen may have been Persian. He was from Basra, which was a mixed Persian and Arab city at that time. He was an almost exact contemporary of Avicenna and he was obviously very well-versed in Persian/Indian mathematics.

Clearly both were building on Persian cultural achievements - there was no Arab mathematics in the late 900s for them to draw on - but there was plenty of Persian and Indian work.

One could also mention Alfarabi, a Muslim philosopher and scientist of Baghdad in the 900s - who was tutored in the disciplines by a Monophysite Christian priest named Yochanan bin Hailan. Again, an example of a Muslim thinker who did not base his work on Islam or indigenous Arab culture.

Averroes was an Arab who lived 150 years after and 2,500 miles away from the other two. He was considered an apostate from Islam, however and his philosophical models were Greek - again there was no indigenous Arab philosophy to build on.

There was also a great period of Muslim-Jewish cooperation at the time with Maimonides in Egypt.

Of course, the only reason why Maimonides was living in Egypt instead of Cordoba is because he and his family escaped being put to the sword like the rest of the Jews of Cordoba at the hands of Sunni fanatic Abd Al-Mumin.

He prospered in Egypt under the leadership of the Kurdish non-Arab Saladin, who is acknowledged as one of medieval history's most uniquely tolerant monarchs.

Certain Arab thinkers proposed something close to heliocentric theory centuries before Copernicus did.

Bishop Nicolas Oresmes did as well.

79 posted on 01/15/2008 10:13:39 AM PST by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: forkinsocket
The only mohammedan contributions to civilization have been wars, death and stolen ideas they regularly attempt to pass off as their own.

You do not get progress from chaotic cultists thirsty for blood and conquest.
80 posted on 01/15/2008 10:22:29 AM PST by Dr.Zoidberg (Mohammedanism - Bringing you only the best of the 6th century for fourteen hundred years.)
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To: forkinsocket

“‘Renaissance Couldn’t Have Happened Without Muslim Input’”

I love these Islamic Apologia articles.

Never a mention of what cultures/technology the Muslims simply
appropriated or destroyed when they took over The Middle East,
North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula in a campaign of rape,
torture, murder and conversion at the point of the sword.

The REAL reason there was a Renaissance is that the center of Western
Civilization kept Muslims the h-ll out of Western Europe by force of arms!


81 posted on 01/15/2008 10:30:59 AM PST by VOA
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To: forkinsocket

so what have you done lately..?


82 posted on 01/15/2008 11:01:48 AM PST by Dick Vomer (liberals suck....... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.,)
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To: forkinsocket

Almost all of the “discoveries” they are trying to claim are either Indian in origin, or predate Islam by centuries. Islam is a dead-end religion with nothing to offer the world but destruction.


83 posted on 01/15/2008 11:50:43 AM PST by zeugma (Hillary! - America's Ex-Wife!)
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To: forkinsocket
Right. Just like the Russians invented baseball, the US Constitution was based on the Iroquois Confederacy, and the Greeks stole their philosophy from sub-saharan Africa.

So much garbage that passes for "history" these days.
84 posted on 01/15/2008 11:54:08 AM PST by Antoninus ("Make all the promises you have to." --Mitt Romney)
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To: forkinsocket

Thank Islam for the Dark Ages and collapse of western civilization - read “Mohammad and Charlemagne”

Islam’s spread throughout northern Africa and slave and commerce raiding in the Mediterranean made communications by sea in Europe on the northern shore of the Mediterranean difficult or impossible.


85 posted on 01/15/2008 11:55:48 AM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: Raymann
To be completely honest it was the 4th Crusade with crippled the Byzantine Empire and left it ripe for the taking.

What, 250 years later? Come on. That's like blaming the British for 9/11 because they weakened us in 1812.
86 posted on 01/15/2008 12:00:45 PM PST by Antoninus ("Make all the promises you have to." --Mitt Romney)
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To: biggerten
Try doing algebra some time, and math without arabic numerals.

Neither of which are Islamacists' inventions. You can thank the Indians for both. 

87 posted on 01/15/2008 12:11:53 PM PST by zeugma (Hillary! - America's Ex-Wife!)
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To: wideawake
As it stands today, all the surviving texts of the Athenian golden age can fit in an standard set of bookshelves from Home Depot. And that's not the fault of all the Greek monks who studiously preserved those texts until they were murdered by janissaries.

And who were the janissaries? Well, as every politically-correct American knows, they were primarily the children of Christian families who were kidnapped from their homes and raised as fanatical Islamist slave-soldiers.

Funny how stuff like that never gets mentioned in articles about the glories of Islam.
88 posted on 01/15/2008 12:22:15 PM PST by Antoninus ("Make all the promises you have to." --Mitt Romney)
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To: Antoninus

No, that’s like saying Europe invaded, divided, and occupied the US for a century starting in 1812, and for the next century was plagued with dictators and civil war and was finally taken over by Mexico.

If you’re in a time of no significant technological change, you can screw over a country for centuries.


89 posted on 01/15/2008 1:21:06 PM PST by Raymann
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To: beejaa

Radical Islam is an insane murder cult.
Moderate Islam is its Trojan Horse in the West. ( borrowed from another freeper)

“I think there are moderate Muslims, they are even the large majority, but I do not believe there is a moderate Islam,”
Philippe de Villiers, head of the anti-immigrant Movement for France (MPF) party

....and lastly.....

as reported by Pope Benedict XVI 9-12-2006:

“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” Byzantine Emperor -Manuel II Paleologus 1391


90 posted on 01/15/2008 2:14:26 PM PST by Vaquero (" an armed society is a polite society" Heinlein "MOLON LABE!" Leonidas of Sparta)
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To: forkinsocket

In the year 1768 the Muslim siege of Vienna (Austria) was broken and the last (before Today) great Muslim conquest ended.

Eight short years later, in 1776 a great country is born; it experiences the greatest prosperity in the history of the world. While Islam declines -continually.

As the liberals are fond of asking: “why do they hate us?”

From the historic perspective, the answer is good ol’Democrap envy.


91 posted on 01/15/2008 5:06:20 PM PST by Fitzy_888 ("ownership society")
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To: Antoninus
The successors of the Fourth Crusaders divided the Byzantine Empire among themselves for about a century after the sack of Constantinople. Eventually, the Byzanties regained much of their old territory, but were never again able to effectively resist the Turks (they were granted another century of reprieve because the Turks had other problems).

I presume you've heard of Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos (the one who said "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."). He went on a long tour of Western Europe, hat in hand, because what was left of the empire after the reunification wasn't able to sustain itself without aid.

92 posted on 01/16/2008 7:03:45 AM PST by steve-b (Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. --RAH)
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To: forkinsocket

One of the goals Osama lists is the reacquisition of the Iberian peninsula. Maybe Islam can accomplish via immigration what it is unable to do by military strength.


93 posted on 01/16/2008 7:07:10 AM PST by tortdog
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To: tortdog

I wonder how severe the Muslim immigration to Spain in. I’ve never been there. In Portugal, the Muslim presence is nonexistent. There might be some, but it would come as a surprise to most Portuguese. Their immigration consists of blacks from Brazil & their African ex-colonies.


94 posted on 01/16/2008 7:13:37 AM PST by forkinsocket
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To: forkinsocket

Portugal does not seem to be getting most of the Muslim immigrants. France and Spain? Big time.


95 posted on 01/16/2008 7:18:47 AM PST by tortdog
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To: steve-b
The successors of the Fourth Crusaders divided the Byzantine Empire among themselves for about a century after the sack of Constantinople. Eventually, the Byzanties regained much of their old territory, but were never again able to effectively resist the Turks (they were granted another century of reprieve because the Turks had other problems).

The late Byzantine Empire from before the 4th Crusade was a failing state, torn by internal strife. The defeat at Manzikert in 1071 is what spurred them to first seek help from the West. This pattern of seeking Western aid, only to cynically use it for their own gain (and often send Crusading armies on suicide missions) lasted up to the very end--when Constantinople itself was defended largely by Italian and Spanish soldiers.
96 posted on 01/16/2008 7:19:27 AM PST by Antoninus ("Make all the promises you have to." --Mitt Romney)
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To: wideawake

Bookmarking this thread for your reply.


97 posted on 01/16/2008 8:13:07 AM PST by denydenydeny (Expel the priest and you don't inaugurate the age of reason, you get the witch doctor--Paul Johnson)
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98 posted on 02/02/2008 10:18:40 PM PST by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__________________Profile updated Wednesday, January 16, 2008)
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Mediaeval Muslims made stunning math breakthrough
Scotsman | 22-Feb-07 | Will Dunham
Posted on 02/22/2007 9:15:51 PM EST by xcamel
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1789584/posts

Islamic tiles reveal sophisticated maths
news@nature.com | 22 February 2007 | Philip Ball
Posted on 02/22/2007 10:24:27 PM EST by neverdem
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1789606/posts
45 posted on 02/24/2007 2:07:19 AM EST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1789606/posts?page=45#45

Medieval Mosque Shows Amazing Math Discovery
Discover Magazine | 01.09.2008 | John Bohannon
Posted on 01/17/2008 10:24:05 AM EST by forkinsocket
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/f-news/1955169/posts


99 posted on 02/02/2008 10:19:45 PM PST by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__________________Profile updated Wednesday, January 16, 2008)
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To: forkinsocket

Islam is still in the 7th century.


100 posted on 02/02/2008 10:22:10 PM PST by rbosque ("An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." - Sir Winston Churchill)
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