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Ancient Islamic Texts Resurface (Impugning The Legitimacy of the Koran,Islam)
The Third Eye Concept ^ | January 14, 2008 | Staff

Posted on 01/19/2008 2:38:36 AM PST by america4vr

Islam watchers blogged all weekend about news that a secret archive of ancient Islamic texts had surfaced after 60 years of suppression. Andrew Higgins' Wall Street Journal report that the photographic record of Koranic manuscripts, supposedly destroyed during World War II but occulted by a scholar of alleged Nazi sympathies, reads like a conflation of the Da Vinci Code with Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail.

The Da Vinci Code offered a silly fantasy in which Opus Dei, homicidal monks and twisted billionaires chased after proof that Christianity is a hoax. But the story of the photographic archive of the Bavarian Academy of Sciences, now ensconced in a Berlin vault, is a case of life imitating truly dreadful art. It even has Nazis. "I hate those guys!" as Indiana Jones said.

No one is going to produce proof that Jesus Christ did not rise from the grave three days after the Crucifixion, of course. Humankind will choose to believe or not that God revealed Himself in this fashion. But Islam stands at risk of a Da Vinci Code effect, for in Islam, God's self-revelation took the form not of the Exodus, nor the revelation at Mount Sinai, nor the Resurrection, but rather a book, namely the Koran. The Encyclopaedia of Islam (1982) observes, "The closest analogue in Christian belief to the role of the Koran in Muslim belief is not the Bible, but Christ." The Koran alone is the revelatory event in Islam.

What if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad during the 7th century, but rather was redacted by later writers drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources?

(Excerpt) Read more at thirdeyeconcept.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: godsgravesglyphs; islam; koran; muhammud
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What if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad during the 7th century, but rather was redacted by later writers drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources?

That would be the precise equivalent of proving that the Jesus Christ of the Gospels really was a composite of several individuals, some of whom lived a century or two apart.

I read the Atlantic Monthly article mentioned here whereby archaeologists discovered Yemeni texts used in the Koran predating it by hundreds of years.

This is an overwhelmingly explosive assertion in that it claims to provide direct evidence that impugns Islam to utter illegitimacy.

1 posted on 01/19/2008 2:38:39 AM PST by america4vr
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To: america4vr
There were many versions of Koran just after Muhammad died. At the Caliphs order, they’re all destroyed but the ‘official’ one.
2 posted on 01/19/2008 2:41:45 AM PST by paudio (Rose: I loath and despise money! Father: You also spend it!)
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To: america4vr

Ping


3 posted on 01/19/2008 2:48:03 AM PST by a77 (McCain for President)
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To: paudio
There were many versions of Koran just after Muhammad died. At the Caliphs order, they’re all destroyed but the ‘official’ one.

The alternative versions were ordered destroyed, but I believe there are other copies of material other than this new stuff that proves that there were other copies. I am sure the rank and file muslim is not aware of that sort of information, however.

4 posted on 01/19/2008 2:52:21 AM PST by highlander_UW (I don't know what my future holds, but I know Who holds my future)
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To: All
Here is the direct link of the story to Asia Times
Indiana Jones meets the Da Vinci Code
5 posted on 01/19/2008 2:55:17 AM PST by america4vr (The ebb and flow of empires have come and gone but America shall forever reign supreme.)
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To: highlander_UW
I am sure the rank and file muslim is not aware of that sort of information, however.
Absolutely. That information would only serve to diminish belief as being "divinely inspired".
6 posted on 01/19/2008 2:58:32 AM PST by america4vr (The ebb and flow of empires have come and gone but America shall forever reign supreme.)
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To: america4vr
Luxenburg's thesis became notorious for explaining that the "virgins" provided to Islamic jihadis in paradise were only raisins

I don't know about the jihadists, but it I got raisins instead of virgins, I'd be a little disappointed.

7 posted on 01/19/2008 2:58:35 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Mike Huckabee: If Gomer Pyle and Hugo Chavez had a love child this is who it would be.)
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To: america4vr

Maybe, but they have millions brainwashed with this crap.


8 posted on 01/19/2008 3:00:57 AM PST by DooDahhhh
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To: america4vr

While stationed in Teheran from 1972 to 1974, I was able to study the Iranian society. What I learned from that experience, to include the events of radical Islam to today, brought me to the conclusion that the Islamic faith is now in the throws of its own end of the Dark Ages. This find, in my opinion, only reinforces my conclusions.


9 posted on 01/19/2008 3:02:26 AM PST by mazda77
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Unfortunately for the West, virgins do make for a much more powerful motivator as reward for martyrdom.

Lucky for Hamas that the scriptures have been taken to be translated as "virgins" instead of the more precise meaning of "raisins". It would be a damn nearly impossible task convincing a disillusioned fifteen year old to blow himself up along with as many Jews as possible for the likes of seventy-two raisins.

10 posted on 01/19/2008 3:05:21 AM PST by america4vr (The ebb and flow of empires have come and gone but America shall forever reign supreme.)
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To: america4vr
This is an overwhelmingly explosive assertion in that it claims to provide direct evidence that impugns Islam to utter illegitimacy.

Any religion that has as one of major tenets the murder of the members of other religions does not have a whole lot of cache in the legitimacy department as far as i am concerned.

11 posted on 01/19/2008 3:10:22 AM PST by verga (I'm not an apologist i just play one on TV)
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To: america4vr; Lucius Cornelius Sulla
72 raisins


12 posted on 01/19/2008 3:11:48 AM PST by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: paudio
What if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad during the 7th century, but rather was redacted by later writers drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources?

It will make what went on over those Danish cartoons look, well, cartoonish.

13 posted on 01/19/2008 3:16:57 AM PST by Dahoser (America's great untapped alternative energy source: The Founding Fathers spinning in their graves.)
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To: dayglored
You know, you may be on to something here with your poster.
If Israel were to broadcast this as the sort of "virgin" any would-be martyr might expect to be greeted by
(at the gates of hell, that is) this martyrdom stuff would be effectively nullified.
14 posted on 01/19/2008 3:19:53 AM PST by america4vr (The ebb and flow of empires have come and gone but America shall forever reign supreme.)
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To: paudio

There were many Gospels, too, in the early centuries of the Church. Only Church establishment approved Gospels made it into the Bible.


15 posted on 01/19/2008 3:19:59 AM PST by SatinDoll (Fredhead and proud of it!)
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To: DooDahhhh
Maybe, but they have millions brainwashed with this crap.

So have Democrats, Socialists and Marxists with their "risky schemes", but I repeat myself.....

16 posted on 01/19/2008 3:29:04 AM PST by Thermalseeker (Silence is not always a Sign of Wisdom, but Babbling is ever a Mark of Folly. - B. Franklin)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Video here.
17 posted on 01/19/2008 3:29:18 AM PST by naturalized ("The time has come," He said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!")
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To: KylaStarr; Cindy; StillProud2BeFree; nw_arizona_granny; Velveeta; Dolphy; appalachian_dweller; ...

What if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad during the 7th century, but rather was redacted by later writers drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources?


I think it was about 3 years ago we had an article posted here about an ancient quran being found in China.


18 posted on 01/19/2008 3:34:04 AM PST by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: SunkenCiv

GGG?


19 posted on 01/19/2008 3:36:23 AM PST by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: america4vr
There was this...

now there's THIS.


20 posted on 01/19/2008 3:40:42 AM PST by johnny7 ("But that one on the far left... he had crazy eyes")
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To: DooDahhhh

yes they do

Every Evil Scheme requires a pretext, we know that, and we also know that the Evil Doers are not at all interested in discussing the merit of their pretexts.

war costs money. only elements with lots of money have the means to make war. you may be assured that those with the means to make war will not engage unless there is value to be recovered.


21 posted on 01/19/2008 3:47:59 AM PST by Mike Acker
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To: johnny7
Thanks for the fascinating picture of the Nazi youths in that they are the most dour, miserable looking bunch of kids I've ever seen.

I'd love to know when this picture was taken but would surmise merely by the look on their collectively cantankerous pusses it was probably very near the end of the war.

22 posted on 01/19/2008 3:51:25 AM PST by america4vr (The ebb and flow of empires have come and gone but America shall forever reign supreme.)
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To: dayglored

I want my 72 raisins.


23 posted on 01/19/2008 4:00:43 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Mike Huckabee: If Gomer Pyle and Hugo Chavez had a love child this is who it would be.)
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To: america4vr
"The closest analogue in Christian belief to the role of the Koran in Muslim belief is not the Bible, but Christ."

Thus it's an act of irreverence for a Muslim to study the Koran the way we study the Bible- digging jewels, revelation, understanding, renewed thought out of the text. The top down heirarchy of the imam's oral tradition and teaching is the power structure of Islam, not the personal relationship we have with the Author of the Bible.

Islam is so fragile and vulnerable to the Spirit of God, if only we can get past the veil of violence and fear that protects their deception from an invasion of light and truth.

24 posted on 01/19/2008 4:00:43 AM PST by ovrtaxt (In my fantasy world, the Dems run a Zell Miller/ Lieberman ticket...)
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To: america4vr; Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Yum Yum! Welcome to Paradise, sucka!

25 posted on 01/19/2008 4:04:25 AM PST by ovrtaxt (In my fantasy world, the Dems run a Zell Miller/ Lieberman ticket...)
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To: america4vr

>>I’d love to know when this picture was taken but would surmise merely by the look on their collectively cantankerous pusses it was probably very near the end of the war.<<

Judging from the fact that they don’t look very emaciated from being fed “water soup” for two or three years, I would tend to disagree with you on that.


26 posted on 01/19/2008 4:08:33 AM PST by alexander_busek
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

“I want my 72 raisins”

Done Deal


27 posted on 01/19/2008 4:09:10 AM PST by DooDahhhh
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To: america4vr

A few months ago I read an article about faith and reason; a couple points follow.

The scholarly arguments that the Koran had nothing to do with the Archangel Gabriel are vast, and easily available. The scholarly arguments contend that the Koran consists of a much later hodge-podge of poorly edited and contradictory material, much of it cribbed from easily-identified Jewish and Christian sources.

If the Koran is a 9th-century redaction rather than a 7th-century revelation, of course, Islam has a serious problem.


28 posted on 01/19/2008 4:10:54 AM PST by olezip
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To: olezip
If the Koran is a 9th-century redaction rather than a 7th-century revelation, of course, Islam has a serious problem.

It would make Islam a variant on the Arian heresy.

29 posted on 01/19/2008 4:13:32 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Mike Huckabee: If Gomer Pyle and Hugo Chavez had a love child this is who it would be.)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Islam has not had the equivalent to the 21 Ecumenical Councils held by the Catholic Church over the centuries (to clarify and resolve its own inconsistencies). Thus Islam is full of contractions, and may, in fact, be standing on a shattered foundation.

On the other hand, the diversity of Christian sects are all over the place in connection with literal or not literal interpretation of the bible. Many Christians are far from intellectual, they use many versions and interpretations of the bible (Mormons have their own bible). But few indeed translate from the original sacred script; in short they are uneducated and satisfied that they need not more. Perhaps they do not need further elaboration because they are comfortable in their faith. Perhaps many Muslims are also comfortable with their faith because it serves their purpose.

The Islamic scholars have yet to contend with reason or even have their first equivalent “Ecumenical Council” to identify and resolve contradictions in their faith and foundation.


30 posted on 01/19/2008 4:27:56 AM PST by olezip
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To: america4vr
It could be that the Nazi youths are imagining that they will be at the Russian front in a few years.

That picture of the Muslim child with the bomb is truly tragic. Presumably it is a fake bomb but someday he will be issued a real bomb. What kind of parent sees his children as vehicles for bombs? How can a culture reform itself when a certain percentage of its people are that fanatical?

31 posted on 01/19/2008 5:17:57 AM PST by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
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To: olezip
Many Christians are far from intellectual,

You sir, have no idea what you are talking about.

32 posted on 01/19/2008 5:32:13 AM PST by Vor Lady (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: olezip

Christians of all types try to come to terms with their seeming contradictions because Christianity is influenced by Greek thought. Christians carry with them Plato and Aristotle whether they realize it or not. I suspect that an Islamist, when confronted with a contradiction, would just say that it is a trick of the devil and there would be no effort to examine and try to logically refute the contradiction. The Islamist “logic” would be, “You said something I don’t like, therefore you are a heretic and you must die!”


33 posted on 01/19/2008 5:32:35 AM PST by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
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To: Vor Lady; olezip

All these different opinions and translations are a result of interpreting a spiritual book with Aristotelian logic, rather than Hebrew style thinking. The Greek mindset (intellectualism, in which we are steeped) has fractured a cohesive communication of love from our Father into all kinds of manmade interpretations and opinions.


34 posted on 01/19/2008 5:35:50 AM PST by ovrtaxt (In my fantasy world, the Dems run a Zell Miller/ Lieberman ticket...)
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To: Calpernia

http://www.google.com/search?q=ancient+quran+being+found+in+China.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Is it the one that sold for 2.3 million?

Of course there are other versions, the simple act of all the years that copies were made by hand, would include a few changes.

Why not?

Look how many want to re-write the Bible.


35 posted on 01/19/2008 5:46:35 AM PST by nw_arizona_granny (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1886546/posts?page=4972#4972 45 Item Communist Manifesto)
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To: milford421; Founding Father; DAVEY CROCKETT; LibertyRocks

Ping.


36 posted on 01/19/2008 5:47:44 AM PST by nw_arizona_granny (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1886546/posts?page=4972#4972 45 Item Communist Manifesto)
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To: Vor Lady

There is nothing wrong with being comfortable with one’s faith at whatever intellectual level. And mankind is characterized by many intellectual levels. A problem occurs when there is deliberate and willful violation of God’s Commandments.


37 posted on 01/19/2008 5:57:44 AM PST by olezip
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To: SatinDoll

Yes, but those materials never made into the Bible that we know today in the first place, and I’m not aware if the church leaders ordered them to be destroyed (hidden, perhaps). The Bible is like an edited book with God as the editor (through the Church Fathers), so no doubt that there are many ‘gospels’ didn’t make to the book, and Christians know this. Muslims believe that the Koran was given to Muhammad in the Nuzulul Quran night as a complete book. So, IMO, Christians shouldn’t be surprised nor confused if there are other materials that are similar to the Bible. That’s not the case with Muslims and Koran.


38 posted on 01/19/2008 5:59:45 AM PST by paudio (Rose: I loath and despise money! Father: You also spend it!)
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To: dayglored
That photo proves that it could be 72 virgins AND 72 raisins.

What about the 28 little boys that are promised to the true believer? Are they really cantaloupes?

39 posted on 01/19/2008 6:34:30 AM PST by SampleMan
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To: SatinDoll

“Only Church establishment approved Gospels made it into the Bible.”

Yes, but for very sound and strict reasons, which are still defensible to this day, if we were just starting the same project.


40 posted on 01/19/2008 6:42:41 AM PST by txzman (Jer 23:29)
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To: america4vr

And then all we would have to do is present this proof to the 1,300,000,000 reasonable muslims throughout the world and all our troubles will be over.


41 posted on 01/19/2008 6:47:54 AM PST by wtc911 ("How you gonna get back down that hill?")
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To: america4vr

What if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I prefer the rule which is “SUPPOSED” to govern in Earthly courts. The burden of proof is on the positive, proving the negative is often impossible. In this case the Islamists would ignore any and all evidence to disprove their assertion and non-Islamists needed no proof to begin with.


42 posted on 01/19/2008 6:56:02 AM PST by RipSawyer (Does anyone still believe this is a free country?)
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To: verga

Any religion that has as one of major tenets the murder of the members of other religions does not have a whole lot of cache in the legitimacy department as far as i am concerned.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It would be a better world if there weren’t so many millions who are incapable of admitting that there are things they don’t know and may never know rather than being ready to kill anyone who questions their great “KNOWLEDGE”. I am beginning to develop a great love for those who say “I don’t know”.


43 posted on 01/19/2008 7:03:55 AM PST by RipSawyer (Does anyone still believe this is a free country?)
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To: highlander_UW
I am sure the rank and file muslim is not aware of that sort of information, however

Be sure to wear a stainless steel collar before going out and telling them

44 posted on 01/19/2008 7:08:41 AM PST by fso301
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To: america4vr; Ezekiel
but rather was redacted by later writers drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources?

Stealing from other religions. And Islam continues this practice today with the destruction and takeover of others' religious sites.

45 posted on 01/19/2008 7:10:45 AM PST by Lijahsbubbe
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To: RipSawyer

Me too.


46 posted on 01/19/2008 7:12:21 AM PST by Unknowing (Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country.)
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To: Wilhelm Tell

The Islamist “logic” would be, “You said something I don’t like, therefore you are a heretic and you must die!”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

No doubt! The worst part is that I have personally known people who claimed to be Christian and displayed the same attitude. One who was on my payroll briefly calls himself a minister, he once told me that there had been people who hated him and his family and these people had been struck dead by God in answer to his family’s prayers. Of course he was a rare case whereas the same attitude seems to be quite common among the Muslims.


47 posted on 01/19/2008 7:13:09 AM PST by RipSawyer (Does anyone still believe this is a free country?)
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To: txzman; paudio; SatinDoll
The Bible wasn't written as an instructional tool for converting people. The Old Testament books were written for people who were already believing Jews, the New Testament books for people who were already believing Christians.

Most of the Epistles, for instance, were written to specific recipients for specific purposes, usually to resolve local disputes concerning doctrines or morals. Paul and other Apostles wrote to particular communities (like Corinth and Galatia) in order to rectify these problems. There was no attempt to give comprehensive doctrinal instruction, because these people were already Christians and had already had comprehensive instruction, orally, from the preaching and example of the Apostles, before they ever had a written text in their hands.

Christian communities existed and flourished for years before even the first book of the New Testament was written. And they existed for centuries before the whole New Testament was collected and canonized.

Thus Scriptures are products of the Church. The Church is not a "product" of the Scriptures.

It's quite different in Islam, where the Koran is believed to have been dictated to a single man in a trance or some kind of paranormal psychological state (Mohammad) and recited, and transcribed verbatim, the ipsissima verba of Allah. It can never be changed by a single syllable nor even, with full legitimacy, translated out of Arabic.

If this is shown to be incorrect, man, it's Götterdämmerung. All hell could break loose. I am serious.

48 posted on 01/19/2008 7:41:31 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Cordially.)
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To: Vor Lady; olezip
Many Christians are far from intellectual
"You sir, have no idea what you are talking about."

No, I think olezip is right, and it's not a snark against Christians.

Fact is, most people are far from intellectual. Most people aren't endowed with either the particular cognitive gifts, nor the time or inclination to think their way all the way back to First Axioms, master vast arrays of facts, and then work forward again to all the ramifying conclusions.

Nor should they, for heaven's sake. Most people have other inclinations, other drives, and other stuff to do.

But it's good that some people, including some Christians, are intellectual. Properly directed, they, too, can often make some useful contribution to society.

49 posted on 01/19/2008 7:56:02 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Cordially.)
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To: ovrtaxt
"Hebrew style thinking" is not the only legitimate style of thinking. I think the relationship with Hellenic thought was fruitful, and even Providential, and you can see this beginning right in the Book of Acts and the Epistles of Paul.

Contact between Hebrew religious thought and MANY other kinds of thinking is terrifically exciting. I'm with Matteo Ricci on this one. Salvation is being offered to all, even those who think like Mandarins, Hopis, Timorese, Punjabis, Mongols, and Cyberpunks.

50 posted on 01/19/2008 8:06:57 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Cordially.)
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