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Exemption allows lesbian pastor's ordination [ELCA continues pursuit of denominational apostasy]
Minneapolis Star Tribune ^ | January 18, 2008 | JEFF STRICKLER

Posted on 01/26/2008 3:42:36 AM PST by Zender500

You only have a few more hours to call Jen Nagel Jen. After her ordination at 2 p.m. today, you have to start calling her the Rev. Nagel -- unless you're a member of the national board of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), in which case you probably don't want to call her at all.

Nagel is being ordained despite being committed to a same-sex relationship. The national ELCA doesn't approve of the ordination of gay ministers. But an exemption in the bylaws was passed at the national convention in August allowing local synods to not object to such ordinations, which is what is happening -- or not happening, depending on how you interpret all of this -- with Nagel.

"I still won't be listed on the national ELCA roster" of ministers, she said. "Officially, I will not be accepted as a pastor by the ELCA, but the people of the local ELCA are accepting me."

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: elca; homosexualagenda; lutheran; religiousleft
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1 posted on 01/26/2008 3:42:42 AM PST by Zender500
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To: Zender500

will soon ceaae to be a church


2 posted on 01/26/2008 4:03:04 AM PST by Waco
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To: Zender500

will soon ceaae to be a church reckon that was the idea, all along


3 posted on 01/26/2008 4:04:21 AM PST by Waco
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To: Zender500

They have had 11,000 people at services last week. When it gets that big, it’s a business. Christ drove the money lenders out of the temple. Same deal.


4 posted on 01/26/2008 4:07:58 AM PST by kitkat
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To: Zender500
That ceremony will be held in a sanctuary that Salem shares with Lyndale United Church of Christ. . .

Birds of an apostate feather do tend to flock together.

5 posted on 01/26/2008 4:08:58 AM PST by rhema ("Break the conventions; keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
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To: Zender500
[Nagel:] "Subtly, my ministry has always been accepted. But this affirmation by a wider community makes this a bigger ordination than normal."

Jesus: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

6 posted on 01/26/2008 4:18:30 AM PST by rhema ("Break the conventions; keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
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To: kitkat

“They have had 11,000 people at services last week. When it gets that big, it’s a business. Christ drove the money lenders out of the temple. Same deal.”

All churches have to be run as a business. They all have bills and they all have “income”. Just because a church is big does not mean its fallen away from God. Likewise, just because a church is small doesn’t mean its following God.

The big churches typically have a very charismatic pastor and a leadership team that understands meeting peoples needs will grow a church.


7 posted on 01/26/2008 4:23:10 AM PST by driftdiver
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To: kitkat

None of my comments should be construed as supporting this specific farce.


8 posted on 01/26/2008 4:24:18 AM PST by driftdiver
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To: rhema

There is a reason many denominations are falling apart while others are growing every single year.


9 posted on 01/26/2008 4:25:55 AM PST by driftdiver
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To: Zender500

Thanks for the post. THIS will generate a little discussion around our church.


10 posted on 01/26/2008 4:27:00 AM PST by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: rhema
That ceremony will be held in a sanctuary that Salem shares with Lyndale United Church of Christ. . .

It's a "sanctuary" only to those who aren't abashed to "deal craftily or to adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God." [2 Cor. 4:2]

11 posted on 01/26/2008 4:33:15 AM PST by Zender500
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To: Cracker Jack
Thanks for the post. THIS will generate a little discussion around our church.

As well it probably should.

Every time I see a new leap into apostasy by the ELCA, I'm reminded of Martin Luther's words:
"If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved, and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point."

12 posted on 01/26/2008 4:37:38 AM PST by Zender500
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To: driftdiver
There is a reason many denominations are falling apart while others are growing every single year.

There certainly is. Congregants who are given stones when they're looking for Biblical bread have a way of not sticking around.

Continuing a 14-year slide, membership in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America dropped in 2005 to just over 4.85 million baptized members, according to a church news release.

The ELCA’s baptized membership declined by 79,663 in 2005, or 1.62 percent, the largest such drop in at least 15 years, according to a report issued Aug. 1 by the Rev. Lowell Almen, the church’s secretary.

Since 1990, the number of baptized members in the ELCA has declined by about 390,000, the report said. The last time the church reported an increase in baptized members was 1991, according to the church news release.

The church also lost about 48,000 “communing and contributing” members — a category that indicates regular active participation in the church — falling to approximately 2.26 million in 2005.

13 posted on 01/26/2008 4:59:16 AM PST by rhema ("Break the conventions; keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
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To: Zender500

Liberalism is destroying the great Protestant churches.


14 posted on 01/26/2008 5:05:32 AM PST by Rosemont
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To: rhema

” There certainly is. Congregants who are given stones when they’re looking for Biblical bread have a way of not sticking around.”

Its really sad to see these great institutions go down in flames. It would be even sadder to see them grow as they walk away from God.


15 posted on 01/26/2008 5:09:44 AM PST by driftdiver
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To: kitkat

It’s become a business for sure.My position on joining a church is simple;if I can’t remember the names of at least 80 percent of the members then it’s too big.


16 posted on 01/26/2008 5:18:08 AM PST by Farmer Dean (168 grains of instant conflict resolution)
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To: Farmer Dean

Maybe you don’t have much of a memory.


17 posted on 01/26/2008 5:27:25 AM PST by em2vn
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To: em2vn

Nothing wrong with my memory.A church with about 300 members works best for me.


18 posted on 01/26/2008 5:34:56 AM PST by Farmer Dean (168 grains of instant conflict resolution)
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To: Farmer Dean

“A church with about 300 members works best for me.”

Thats whats great about America, we all have the choice of the church we wish to attend.

In my experience churches of that size don’t offer the services I want for my kids. Finding a church that your kids will drag you to is a great thing.


19 posted on 01/26/2008 5:59:02 AM PST by driftdiver
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To: lightman; Charles Henrickson

Lutheran ping


20 posted on 01/26/2008 6:40:17 AM PST by rhema ("Break the conventions; keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
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To: Zender500

It’s to be expected they are in kahoots with ECUSA, sorry I meant TEC.


21 posted on 01/26/2008 6:58:24 AM PST by kalee (The offenses we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we write in marble. JHuett)
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To: Zender500
Image hosted by Photobucket.com when ever good and EVIL compromise... EVIL ALWAYS WINS!!!
22 posted on 01/26/2008 7:23:41 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist )
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To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; AlternateViewpoint; AnalogReigns; Archie Bunker on steroids; Arrowhead1952; ..


Lutheran (ELCA) Ping!

Once again a congregation of the ELCA will violate the church Constitutions by "calling" a person not eligible to be on the clergy roster; and, most likely, once again no disciplinary action will be taken against the congregation. Especially since this congregation is a big contributor of "Mission Support" to its Synod, and, by extension, churchwide.

Money talks. All violations are equal but some are more equal than others.

23 posted on 01/26/2008 9:04:50 AM PST by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be Exorcised.)
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To: Zender500
Salem is hardly a large, vibrant congregation.

According to the ELCA statistical report the congergation has declined in membership 65% since 1990.

But, "amazingly", the Mission support giving just shot up 300% last year!

Money talks. Johann Tetzel would be so proud.

24 posted on 01/26/2008 9:16:44 AM PST by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be Exorcised.)
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To: driftdiver
"All churches have to be run as a business. They all have bills and they all have “income”."

That's not true at all. Everyone alive pretty much has bills and income but that doesn't make them a business. A business is run to maximize income over expenses - profit. A Church should just be interested the amount of income necessary to to cover the expenses necessary to carry out it's mission. The mission stays paramount. When the desire for income becomes the primary focus (as with most megachurch entertainment centers) it's really no longer a Church, just a very profiable social center.

25 posted on 01/26/2008 9:17:51 AM PST by joebuck
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To: Waco

There will be no need to go to church at all when the pastors become poster creatures for sin.


26 posted on 01/26/2008 10:16:44 AM PST by tessalu
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To: joebuck

“That’s not true at all. Everyone alive pretty much has bills and income but that doesn’t make them a business. “

It is very true. They must be run with the discipline of a business or they will not succeed. Businesses are not only about making a profit, they are also about selling a product or service. Churches lacking the discipline of a business waste money and typically never grow.

For churches the product is salvation and the service is meeting the needs of the members. Profits are still required but instead of going to the ‘shareholders’ they are reinvested.

Just because a church is ‘mega’ does not mean its bad or failing God. Likewise a small church is not automatically blessed.

Churches seek to become more modern as that it what it takes to get people in the door. The old fashioned service we grew up with has trouble competing with the World for the hearts of the lost.


27 posted on 01/26/2008 10:47:08 AM PST by driftdiver
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To: tessalu
There will be no need to go to church at all when the pastors become poster creatures for sin.

The seven deadly sins are pretty much considered sarcaments, nowadays.

28 posted on 01/26/2008 10:50:15 AM PST by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
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To: Wilhelm Tell

“The seven deadly sins are pretty much considered sarcaments, nowadays.”

This really shouldn’t surprise anyone. The bible talks about the false teachers and churches that have fallen from grace.


29 posted on 01/26/2008 10:54:02 AM PST by driftdiver
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To: rhema; lightman; aberaussie; redgolum

....[Nagel]...”But this affirmation by a wider community makes this a bigger ordination than normal.”....

1. Like many “mainline”/lameline “gay””pastors” and “bishops”, Ms. Nagel is puffed up with arrogance!!!! Her “ordination” is in reality of ZERO importance, since it is completely invalid. Perhaps many of her audience are mere curiosity-seekers, who are coming to see a freak show!!!!

2. The ELCA “gay” lobby, “Lutherans Concerned” (LCNA), invites us to see an online version of a TV documentary, “For the Bible Tells Me So”.

http://www.lcna.org/lcna_news/2008-01-15.shtm

In their introduction to the video, LCNA states:

......”My understanding is that Jesus, in Matthew 19 and Mark 10, says that sexual union is valid in a one man/one woman relationship,” Pastor Dave Glesne says.

“When someone says this is what the Bible says, my response to them is ‘no;’ that is what it reads. It is the struggle to understand context and language,”.....

The entire lameline “gay” movement is based on twisting Scripture beyiond what it “reads” to a distorted version that supports the “gay” agenda, but contradicts the entire witness of the apostolic Church. Similarly, lameline feminists, globalists, and muslim-enablers do a similar job of Scripture-twisting to support their agendas, which are not unrelated to the “gay” one.


30 posted on 01/26/2008 4:41:08 PM PST by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: Rosemont
» Liberalism is destroying the great Protestant churches.

Yep.

Liberalism is today's most popular false religion.

31 posted on 01/26/2008 4:41:57 PM PST by TonyRo76 (American by birth. Patriot by choice. Christian by grace.)
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To: Honorary Serb
The entire lameline “gay” movement is based on twisting Scripture beyiond what it “reads” to a distorted version that supports the “gay” agenda, but contradicts the entire witness of the apostolic Church. Similarly, lameline feminists, globalists, and muslim-enablers do a similar job of Scripture-twisting to support their agendas, which are not unrelated to the “gay” one.

The ELCA willfully ignores this:

"When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studies in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. God in revealing His Word neither intends nor permits the reader to be confused. He wants His children to understand." [Dr. D. A. Waite, Ephesians, p. 10]

The Bible proclaims its authority to judge its readers; the ELCA proclaims its authority to judge the Bible.

32 posted on 01/26/2008 5:41:19 PM PST by Zender500
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To: Zender500

I finished writing my resignation letter today. I’m gone. Goodbye ELCA.


33 posted on 01/26/2008 5:45:52 PM PST by BigFinn (Amateurs...built the ark. Professionals...built the Titanic)
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To: BigFinn
I finished writing my resignation letter today. I’m gone. Goodbye ELCA.

Martin Luther couldn't be an ELCA member today. And frankly, they wouldn't want him; he'd miss no opportunity to rain all over their Bible-twisting parade.

34 posted on 01/26/2008 6:01:51 PM PST by rhema ("Break the conventions; keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
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To: Rosemont

So long as they continue defying and trashing the Word, so long will their membership continue to shrink.


35 posted on 01/26/2008 6:11:08 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: BigFinn
I finished writing my resignation letter today. I’m gone. Goodbye ELCA.

And hello, freedom from being "unequally yoked" with a denomination that treats the Bible like activist judges treat the "living" Constitution.

36 posted on 01/26/2008 6:31:55 PM PST by Zender500
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To: lightman
Salem is hardly a large, vibrant congregation. According to the ELCA statistical report the congergation has declined in membership 65% since 1990. But, "amazingly", the Mission support giving just shot up 300% last year! Money talks. Johann Tetzel would be so proud.

That's about one moneyed liberal ponying up 3 grand as an expression of gratitude to a denomination that wouldn't dream of exerting an iota of Scriptural discipline.

37 posted on 01/26/2008 6:41:56 PM PST by Zender500
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To: Waco

It already happened.


38 posted on 01/26/2008 6:48:13 PM PST by Pining_4_TX
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To: Zender500
a denomination that treats the Bible like activist judges treat the "living" Constitution.

PERFECT analogy!

Revisionistas are like the Queen of Hearts "words mean whatever I want them to mean". Lewis Carroll was prophetic.

39 posted on 01/26/2008 6:57:57 PM PST by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be Exorcised.)
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To: lightman
Once again a congregation of the ELCA will violate the church Constitutions by "calling" a person not eligible to be on the clergy roster;

But she's been installed in an “Extraordinary Ordination” and rostered by Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries. How can you argue against a superfluity of "extraordinaries"?

40 posted on 01/26/2008 7:01:22 PM PST by Zender500
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To: Rosemont; lightman
Liberalism is destroying the great Protestant churches.

When ELCA pastors and denominational leaders start handing out dangerously anti-Biblical advice to their members, Bible-believing ELCA members really have no choice but to exit. We're not talking about superficial differences here. The ELCA is okaying behaviors (homosexual acts among them) the Bible clearly proscribes as sin. Not only that, but the Bible in several places warns specifically that those who continue impenitent in those sins "will not inherit the kindgom of heaven." It was that kind of ungodly influence and counsel that Jesus addressed when he said it would be better for someone to have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea than to cause one of "these little ones" to sin. The ELCA is treading on dangerous ground.

41 posted on 01/27/2008 9:51:06 AM PST by Zender500
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To: Zender500

How can any preacher evade the life-changing implications of today’s Gospel: “From that time on, Jesus began to proclaim, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand’”?


42 posted on 01/27/2008 1:03:34 PM PST by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be Exorcised.)
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Look at the verses in Romans regarding this issue and see if you and I have managed to get through life without violating some of the things mentioned there. Then look at the verses about judging and see who you know who has managed to get through life without being judgmental. Then, you can cast some stones. Which isn’t to say that this is right, but that we aren’t about it.


43 posted on 01/27/2008 2:58:46 PM PST by PSat
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To: driftdiver
Churches seek to become more modern as that it what it takes to get people in the door. The old fashioned service we grew up with has trouble competing with the World for the hearts of the lost.

The Mainline started its slide down the slippery slope back in the 60's when they all decided they had to "be relevant" and learn to "relate to the young." They began to emulate coffee houses instead of acting like churches and guess what. Coffee houses did it better so that's where the "young" all went.

A church that seeks to "compete with the World" is a church that does not understand its true mission.

44 posted on 01/27/2008 3:43:11 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: hinckley buzzard

“They began to emulate coffee houses instead of acting like churches and guess what. Coffee houses did it better so that’s where the “young” all went.”

I disagree, Jesus has commanded us to go out into the world. Churches don’t have to be drab and dreary to lead people to salvation.

“A church that seeks to “compete with the World” is a church that does not understand its true mission.”

What is their true mission? It certainly isn’t to bored people to death. The true mission is to preach God’s word and lead people to salvation. Of course thats competing with the World (aka Satans playground).


45 posted on 01/27/2008 3:50:39 PM PST by driftdiver
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To: PSat; Zender500; BibChr
Look at the verses in Romans regarding this issue and see if you and I have managed to get through life without violating some of the things mentioned there. Then look at the verses about judging and see who you know who has managed to get through life without being judgmental. Then, you can cast some stones. Which isn’t to say that this is right, but that we aren’t about it.

Welcome to FreeRepublic.

The operative word in this discussion is impenitence. When a person trusts Jesus as his Savior, he's declaring that he's turning his life over to the lordship of Jesus and that he now wants to see things as God sees them. If God declares something to be a sin, the alive-in-Christ new creation doesn't try to evade the truth and give excuses for continuing to sin. He repents of it and asks for God's help in not succumbing to the temptation to do whatever God has declared to be sin. He may yield to the temptation again and sin, but he goes to God in repentance every time he does. He doesn't try to justify his sin by playing semantic games with the Bible. (Paul: "How can we who have died to sin still live in it?")

The problem is compounded when pastor-shepherds, who are supposed to preach the Word, start adulterating it by claiming it really doesn't say what it plainly says. Both Paul and Jesus (the latter in Matthew 7, the chapter whose first verse is the only one liberal pastors and mainline denominations seem to remember) warned believers to "beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

46 posted on 01/27/2008 5:41:14 PM PST by rhema ("Break the conventions; keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
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To: PSat

I don’t think it’s judgmental to point out sin. And the whole point of being Christian isn’t that we’re perfect non-sinners but we’re forgiven for them as we accept Christ and turn away from our sins.


47 posted on 01/27/2008 5:48:37 PM PST by tpanther
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To: rhema

Great post!

My brother’s fiancee’s ex-husband is the youth minister, president of a Christian adoption agency and overall upstanding outward Christian.

But he often makes comments like: “Who’s to say that the Christian way is the only way to heaven”?

Ummmm Christ Himself said it! Christian: follower of Christ and His teachings.


48 posted on 01/27/2008 5:55:46 PM PST by tpanther
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To: tpanther

If we are to say that sin is sin, gossip is gossip (even if we are saying something POSITIVE about somebody,) then judging is judging. Judging isn’t saying something false or negative, it is making a judgment.

That doesn’t mean that I disagree with the comments on this forum. It just means that we need to be sure we aren’t playing God’s role, Who is the ultimate Judge.

The Bible (Jesus, in this case) shows that the Pharisees knew the scripture and applied it literally and exactly according to what they had been taught, but Jesus turned that interpretation on its head.

Jesus has much to say about pointing our fingers at others because even little sins, tiny sins, cause the same separation from God that the big sins do.


49 posted on 01/28/2008 7:52:57 AM PST by PSat
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To: PSat

Which isn’t to suggest we’re not to use good judgment!

It’s clearly NOT judgmental to point out that it’s the wrong interpretation to say we shouldn’t judge the act or lifestyle of homosexuality or there’s more than one way to God other than Christianity.

You can not accept just the teachings of God that fit your lifestyle, agenda or sensibilites.


50 posted on 01/28/2008 4:28:08 PM PST by tpanther
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