We’re coming here to pick the country up’ (Arkansan Man of the Year - illegal immigrant)

The Arkansas Times ^ | 1/24/2008 | Doug Smith

[raybbr]

But some natives don’t want to be lifted. Published 1/24/2008

Perceptions of The Immigrant vary, to say the least. Merchant and restaurateur Eduardo Martinez of Little Rock sees himself a few years ago — ambitious, hard-working, law-abiding, soon to become a pillar of the community.

Mayor Stephen Womack of Rogers sees people who drive up the crime rate, strain government services as well as the patience of the natives, and generally bear watching.

A curious coalition of hard-nosed businessmen and soft-hearted do-gooders sees someone who needs protection from ill-informed and ill-intentioned elected officials.

A fair number of inhospitable Arkansans see a brown-skinned, Spanish-speaking newcomer taking over a state that rightfully belongs to white-skinned Anglophones.

Gourmets see one who's given the state something it lacked — good Mexican restaurants, even in small towns.

To some, The Immigrant who doesn't have all the papers he's supposed to have is “undocumented.” To others, he's “illegal.”

All agree that The Immigrant is numerous and growing in number, and that in one way or another, he's changing the face of Arkansas. That's why he's been chosen as the Arkansas Times' Arkansan of the Year.

In Arkansas, most immigrants are Latinos. According to the state data center at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock, the Latino population of Arkansas as of July 1, 2006, was 141,000, or 5 percent of the total Arkansas population of 2.8 million. Some sources estimate the Latino population as of Jan. 1, 2008, at 180,000 to 200,000.

The Winthrop Rockefeller Foundation provides a statistical picture of immigrants in Arkansas. Half of them are from Mexico and another 20 percent are from elsewhere in Latin America. About half of them are undocumented (to use the gentler word), which means they don't meet the legal requirements for entry into the USA but they came anyway. Most came to find work that pays better than what was available in their home countries. They tend to settle on the western edge of the state, and around Little Rock in Central Arkansas. Four counties — Benton, Washington, Sebastian and Pulaski — account for almost two-thirds of Arkansas immigrants. Forty-two percent of the immigrants work in manufacturing — far more than in any other field of employment — and more than half of those with manufacturing jobs work at processing poultry or other meat. Many of them work for Tyson Foods, headquartered in Springdale. Tyson is one of the founders of a new group formed to block anti-immigrant legislation.

Cheap immigrant labor keeps manufacturers' costs down, according to the Rockefeller profile. Latino immigrants make less money than natives, an average of about $8 an hour compared to $11. “[T]he state's manufacturing wage bill would have been as much as $95 million higher [in 2004] if the same output were to be maintained without immigrant workers,” the profile says. “These labor cost savings help keep Arkansas's businesses competitive and are passed on in the form of lower prices to Arkansas and other U.S. consumers.”

Immigrant labor also keeps production up, according to the profile: “[W]ithout immigrant labor, the output of the state's manufacturing industry would likely be lowered by about $1.4 billion — or about 8 percent of the industry's $16.2 billion total contribution to the gross state product in 2004.”

Latino immigrants are substantially less educated than native Arkansans; over three-fourths of those aged 25 and older haven't graduated from high school. Latino children have poverty rates over twice as high as whites, but lower than blacks.

Immigrants (and their U.S.-born children) have a small but positive net fiscal impact on the state budget, according to the Rockefeller profile:

“The large and growing immigrant population was reflected in a fiscal impact on the state budget of $237 million in 2004 (taking into account the costs of education, health services, and corrections). Those costs were more than balanced by direct and indirect tax contributions of $257 million, resulting in a net surplus to the state budget of $19 million — approximately $158 per immigrant. Though education is calculated as a fiscal cost in this report, expenditures to educate immigrants' children represent an important investment in Arkansas's future workforce that could pay substantial returns to the state through increased worker productivity and economic growth.”

Eduardo Martinez came to the U.S. from Mexico in 1985, invited by a brother who was already here. Asked the unavoidable question, he says “I came in legal.” He spoke no English at the time — he had only a third-grade education — but he's learned it since. He came alone, and now he has a wife and children. He started working in restaurants, washing dishes and waiting tables, and he worked his way up. Now he owns a grocery store, a taqueria and a bakery, and he can afford to send his children to private, Catholic schools. “I learned everything from you [Americans],” he says. “I watched what you guys do. I'm part of the country now.”

He knows that some Arkansans have a low opinion of Latinos, but “When Anglos see a guy working on the roof, they change their minds. People are impressed by hard workers.” Latinos are hard workers, he says, and “We like to own, we don't like to borrow. Look at how much money we bring to the state. We're coming here to pick the country up, not to destroy it.”

He says that he personally has not suffered discrimination because of ethnicity, but he knows people who have. “I know a person who can't go to the university because he's not legal. He's broken-hearted, talking about leaving the country.” He refutes the notion that undocumented workers should be sent home because they're taking jobs from natives. “There's a lot of open jobs. If the people without papers are forced out, you won't be able to find anybody else to do those jobs.”

Businessmen much bigger than Eduardo Martinez fret about jobs going unfilled if immigrants are driven out. Alltel and Stephens, Inc., joined Tyson Foods among those who announced in October the formation of the Arkansas Friendship Coalition. Religious leaders and liberal activists were other founders of the group. Rev. Steve Copley of Little Rock, the chairman, fits in both those categories. He's a Methodist minister and he's worked in many liberal causes, most recently a successful movement to raise the state minimum wage.

The coalition's base may be wide, but its focus is narrow. The varied interests of the coalition founders probably prevented any broader agreement. The coalition is opposed to the state government and/or local governments enacting any immigration legislation. “The Arkansas Friendship Coalition maintains that immigration is a federal issue and that state and local money should not be wasted to fix a problem that is ultimately a responsibility of the federal government,” the coalition said in a news release.

Copley said in an interview that some states, including Oklahoma, have passed “punitive” immigration laws. In some cases, it's said, such laws have driven immigrants from those states. The coalition knows that there are state and city officials in Arkansas, mostly in Northwest Arkansas, who favor the same kind of legislation.

“Reform is needed, but it has to come from Congress,” Copley said. “Because that's what the Constitution says, and because it would be bad to have a patchwork arrangement, 50 states with different laws governing immigration.” The Arkansas legislature won't meet again until January 2009, but coalition members are already arranging meetings with individual legislators.

People who believe there are too many immigrants in this country and that some should be shipped home often argue that the debate is simply about legality. Why should “illegal aliens” be permitted to stay here, they ask. The coalition pointedly avoids reference to “illegal aliens.” Asked why, Copley said, “I use the word ‘undocumented.' It's not a crime per se to lack the documents. It's more of an administrative issue, like taxes. ‘Undocumented' is a much clearer way of describing it, and less inflammatory.” Besides, he said, “We feel that if people are here, they should be treated fairly and with dignity,” with documents or without.

Doubtless, Mayor Stephen Womack of Rogers would have no problem with an Eduardo Martinez. Not all immigrants are like Martinez.

Rogers is a city of 50,000. Latino immigrants make up 30 percent of the population. “The immigrant population commits a disproportionate number of offenses like stealing utilities, doing drugs, and not paying taxes,” Womack said in an interview at Rogers City Hall. “Seventy-five percent of the citations for no driver's license go to Latino people, and 80 percent of the citations for hindering government operations [using false identification]. Now, when we catch these people we can send them back where they came from.” He's referring to a new program in which a few designated Rogers police officers enforce federal immigration laws. The Benton County and Washington County sheriffs' offices participate in the same program. Latino spokesmen say such programs entail “racial profiling,” harassing people because they look like they might be illegal immigrants. These programs also cause immigrants to be even more afraid of local police than they already are, and thus to refrain from reporting real crimes, the spokesmen say.

“We've never racially profiled and we won't,” Womack said. “That's a lot of crap. The police don't go out looking for illegal aliens. But when they encounter a criminal act and they arrest somebody, many of those arrested can't show identification, can't prove they are who they claim. Then the police have a reason to detain them, to determine the status of the person, to determine the removability of the person.” He said he didn't hear much from Rogers' Latino residents, but the natives support the program. “The comments I hear most are ‘I don't mind people coming here to better themselves, but I don't want the illegality, I want the law enforced.' Some add that they want English spoken.”

He added, “I know the program also brings out the worst in people who don't like anybody who doesn't look like them. That's unfortunate.”

He may get unwelcome praise from that element, but, he said, he gets unfair criticism from another. “You can't discuss the immigrant problem fully without people painting you as biased and intolerant. I think we should be able to talk about it.”

When the Mexican consulate at Little Rock opened in April 2007, state and city officials were delighted, others not so much. Reports of the opening that appeared in The Morning News, a Northwest Arkansas newspaper, elicited more than 200 on-line comments, almost all of them negative, many extremely so:

“Contact your state reps and demand this be stopped.” “I am not glad to see [Governor Mike] Beebe is a spinless [sic] advocate of illegal immigration.” “This is just one more nail in America's coffin.” “Polio was eradicated from the U.S., but now it reappears in illegal aliens.” “Go Arkies go! Save your state from the Third World invasion. It's too late for mine.” “It's time for a revolution.” “Have you ever lived in Los Angeles? It's a toilet.” “We need to deport all of them and focus on the citizens of this country.”

Located behind a strip shopping center on University Avenue, near the southwest Little Rock neighborhoods where Mexican immigrants congregate, the consulate is an unimposing one-story building, easy to miss before a sign pointing the way was posted on University. Still, the mere idea of Little Rock having a consulate, anybody's consulate, would have astonished the city's residents not too many years back.

Mexican immigrants have poured into the U.S. in recent years. According to Andres Chao, the Little Rock consul, about a million of them live in the area served by the consulate. That's Arkansas, Mississippi, eastern Oklahoma and western Tennessee. Protecting them is Chao's job. He met with Womack in Rogers about the new police program. Both men say the meeting was civil, but they didn't reach agreement. Chao says he's still waiting for documentation that Womack was supposed to send concerning the alleged high crime rates for Mexican immigrants in Rogers.

Immigration is a worldwide problem, Chao said, but “In Europe, they're tearing down the walls,” while some Americans want to build new walls or strengthen old ones. “We [Mexico] want to build bridges instead of fences,” he said.

Chao said that his government too wants fewer Mexicans leaving home for the U.S. “We need to create well-paying jobs in Mexico,” Chao said. “A worker can make in a week in the U.S. what he makes in a month in Mexico. If we don't stop the loss of younger labor, in 10 years we'll have a serious problem. The two countries need to share the problem. There are costs and benefits to both sides.”

As for the criticism that Mexican immigrants drive down wages and take jobs away from American workers, Chao said, “The jobs are there. We don't make the decision how much to pay.”

The problem of people not speaking English will correct itself over time, Chao said. “The ones who have been here awhile say ‘I want my son to speak English.' The younger generation now speaks more English than Spanish. It causes problems in the family. Old people have trouble learning English. The grammar is different, and many of them have low levels of education.”

Those younger, English-speaking people will stay in the U.S., Chao said. Most of the older ones want to go back to Mexico eventually, even if they won't know when they get there. “The Mexican government spent $5 million last year to help Mexicans be buried in Mexico,” Chao said.

[raybbr]

What will Huckabee and McCain say about calling an invader of their country "Man of the Year"?

[raybbr]

ping to “invader of the year” award.

[OCCASparky]

Eduardo Martinez of Little Rock sees himself a few years ago — ambitious, hard-working, law-abiding,

I pretty much stopped reading right there. Uh, Eduardo? If you came here ILLEGALLY, you're NOT law-abiding!

[TADSLOS]

The GOP Bush legacy. The GOP McCain legacy. The GOP Huckabee legacy. I detect a pattern...

[Graybeard58]

If these “immigrants” are a net positive to Arkansas, they should have recruiters in Mexico, actively seeking uneducated Mexicans to come to Arkansas to further contribute to their economy.

[Past Your Eyes]

Heaven knows that Arkansas can use a little picking up. The last time I was there, there was so much rubbish along side the road you couldn’t take a step without walking on it. But that was 20 years ago so maybe it’s cleaner now.

[ARE SOLE]

If you are counting on the illegals making things cleaner, trust me, it won’t happen. They don’t know what a trash can is for.

Regards

[chicagolady]

Don’t you have to be a citizen of the United Sates to be considered? They should go bankrupt after everyone votes with their feet and cancels their subscription!!

[Dagnabitt]

When we become a third-world country, will the Chinese give us foreign aid?

[Truthsearcher]

Problem is, the reason they are wanted is because they are illegal.

Illegals can be paid under the table, below minimum wage, no social security, workman’s comp insurance, no extra overtime pay, etc.

That’s why the documented workers solution won’t work. Because hiring documented workers means the business will still have to follow the cost adding regulations.

The reason this problem exists is because government regulations such as minimum wages laws and other “protect the worker” regulations that create inefficiencies in the economy. As always, the market will try to find a way around those regulations.

The demand for these illegals are created by these laws. You really want to get rid of the illegal problem? Get rid of all those laws, such as minimum wage, social security tax, overtime, etc. Of course I doubt that will ever happen, too many sacred cows that can’t be touched.

[TexasRedeye]

Immigrants ... have a small but positive net fiscal impact on the state budget, according to the Rockefeller profile:

Hmmm, the statement seems to have omitted the word Illegal immigrants....

This whole statement proves that, in fact, that figures don't lie but liers figure!

[Thurston Peak]

Get ready to see the pattern increase exponentially in the coming Hillary/Obama or McCain/Huckabee administration. I fear that history will condemn conservatives for their pouty reluctance to rally with vigor around a candidate—ANY candidate including a *shudder* Mormon—to stop the John McCain amnesty express before it crushed this nation’s sovereignty and left US borders open to permanent invasion.

[Past Your Eyes]

But but but but the man said he wanted to pick the place up....

[mozarky2]

“Don’t you have to be a citizen of the United Sates to be considered? They should go bankrupt after everyone votes with their feet and cancels their subscription!!”

Problem is, this rag is a FREE paper!

[Moonman62]

Cheap immigrant labor keeps manufacturers' costs down, according to the Rockefeller profile. Latino immigrants make less money than natives, an average of about $8 an hour compared to $11. “[T]he state's manufacturing wage bill would have been as much as $95 million higher [in 2004] if the same output were to be maintained without immigrant workers,” the profile says. “These labor cost savings help keep Arkansas's businesses competitive and are passed on in the form of lower prices to Arkansas and other U.S. consumers.”

So instead of $11 being spent in the state, $2 gets spent in the state, because most of the slave wages get sent back to Mexico. That's not good for business.

[Wonder Warthog]

We came to pick the country up."

Correction---"We can to stick the country up."

Damned thieves.

[iopscusa]

The comments at the AR paper site are all negative about this bogus article and anti-illegal. There is also another article at the site from the LA Times about the Huck’s book about the school AR shootings and the slimy way he duped the victims families by opposing any $$ being made by the perps from movie or book rights and then Huck publishes his own book on the shootings, “Blood Money” and keeps the profits....this guy is as slimy as the Slicksters!

[humblegunner]

Latino immigrants are substantially less educated than native Arkansans

Now thats saying a lot!

[Steamburg]

Its the same people who elected Clinton and Huckabee Governor. What a real good reason to vote for almost anyone else.

[Haddit]

By this logic it would make sense to be able to own people and not pay them any wages. When are they going to start throwing employers in jail?

[chicagolady]

That does pose a problem!!

[maxter]

Looks like the illegal immigration issue is moving its way back up for discussion. Just in time for Feb 5th.

[spectre]

"Mexican immigrants have poured into the U.S. in recent years. According to Andres Chao, the Little Rock consul, about a million of them live in the area served by the consulate. That's Arkansas, Mississippi, eastern Oklahoma and western Tennessee. "

Huckabee solicited and brought in the Mexican Consulate, who take their show on the road to the surrounding States.

"Protecting them is Chao's job."

"Protecting them" was Huckabee's job first.

sw

[raybbr]

I neglected to post this part. That a "new America" has been in the works for years.

We (those who voted for Bush) nominated him to "welcome the new America". Or, so he claims.

What choice did we have? Elect Gore, who's completely nuts or Bush who seems to hold the interests of other countries above those of the U.S.

THE "NEW AMERICAN"..........<

We are now one of the largest Spanish-speaking nations in the world. We're a major source of Latin music, journalism and culture.

Just go to Miami, or San Antonio, Los Angeles, Chicago or West New York, New Jersey ... and close your eyes and listen. You could just as easily be in Santo Domingo or Santiago, or San Miguel de Allende.

For years our nation has debated this change -- some have praised it and others have resented it. By nominating me, my party has made a choice to welcome the new America.

Our future cannot be separated from the future of Latin America.

As I speak, we are celebrating the success of democracy in Mexico.

George Bush from a campaign speech in Miami, August 2000.

You can read the speech here.

Here is an excerpt of a good critique of that speech:

In equating our intimate historic bonds to our mother country and to Canada with our ties to Mexico, W. shows a staggering ignorance of the civilizational facts of life. The reason we are so close to Britain and Canada is that we share with them a common historical culture, language, literature, and legal system, as well as similar standards of behavior, expectations of public officials, and so on. My Bush Epiphany By Lawrence Auster

[L98Fiero]

I’m relatively new to Arkansas (only lived here since October) and live in the Ozarks. I sense a good bit of “Buyers remorse” among the locals with regards to Huckabee. Don’t get them started on Clinton. This area is a bit different from the rest of the state, though.

[mewzilla]

Some very informative links on the subject of illegal aliens, Wages and Poverty.

[mewzilla]

Related link....

Odd allies oppose 'no-match' plan (Hiring Illegals)

[Liz]

bttt

[Condor51]

I'm sick and tired, fed up, had it up to 'here' - with the Bullcarp canard.

"They're (We're) A Hard Working People"

Dammit every legal immigrant is "Hard Working", they have to be. That's a condition of getting a Visa & Permanent Resident Alien Green Card - Work, or go HOME and, no welfare.

As to the ILLEGALS; they're so dam "Hard Working" our Jails and Prisons are overflowing with them. Yeah okay, I'll stipulate it's "Hard Work" being in a street gang and dealings drugs out in the cold every night, or committing extortion, or doing drive-bys at the drop of a hat, and killing innocent people for no fricken reason. Yep, that's no 9 to 5 job. It's "Hard Work" darn it!

Then we have our hospitals and morgues that are full of the carnage the "Hard Working" drunken scum leave on our streets, highways and roads every day and night. As they then slither off into the grass like a snake after causing the death and destruction. Then slink back to Mexico for safety. That too is "Hard Work".

Yep, they're all "Hard Working People".

However, their (cough) "family values" leave MUCH to be desired. Either that, or I'm wacky for not understanding that being a Child Molester and Sex Pervert is just some quaint Cultural thing that we'll all have to get used to from these "Hard Working People"

Oops, have to run now. Some of these "Hard Working People" are sacrificing a bunch of Chickens and a Goat in the middle of the street. Gotta see wtf this is all about. (All Hail Diversity!)

/rant

[Haddit]

This story was on John & Ken show. They had the guys sister on the show. They know who the illegal alien is and where his friends and family live here in the U.S. Nobody will admit to knowing where he is and unbelievably nobody has a photograph of him. The local Mexican media refuses to air a story on the killing.

Friday, January 25th, 2008
SPANISH MEDIA IGNORES INNOCENT MAN’S DEATH
Posted by The John and Ken Show @ 10:43 am
On Wednesday, we brought you the story of John Kerns, the innocent pedestrian who was killed by an illegal alien named Cristobal Arellano on New Year’s Day. Numerous media outlets in Los Angeles covered the story, but for some reason, spanish media channels Univision and Telemundo refuse to bring this story to their viewers. Could it be that they don’t want to expose the dark, ugly side of illegal immigration? Give them a call, and ask why they’re not covering this, and tell them that with their help, we can bring Arellano the killer to justice!

Univision:MAIN PHONE: 310-216-3434
NEWS PHONE: 310-348-3495

Telemundo:MAIN PHONE: 818-260-5700
NEWS PHONE: 818-260-5712

[muggs]

You need to go to this site and post your thoughts.
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/comments/threadView.asp?page=1&threadid=500

[yefragetuwrabrumuy]

Though it wouldn’t serve the cause of the “throw them all out” emotional reaction, a middle ground might be found in treating illegal aliens with the same basic criteria that we treat legal immigrants.

That is, we want the good ones, not the bad ones.

So we need a process by which the good ones, who want to become US citizens, and who *we* otherwise would want to become US citizens, can do so, without leaving the US first, and in just a year or two, instead of a decade or two.

Now it doesn’t have to be easy or cheap. They might have to pay a lot of money, and undergo strict rules before they can become legal, like learning English well, not just enough to get by, and learning our constitution and our laws. Not just taking a test, but several, and to be thoroughly documented, as well as paying back taxes and fees.

And at the same time, those that *don’t* want to become citizens, and who *we* don’t want to become citizens, ever, are not just kicked out, but BARRED from re-entry, so that if they do come back, they could be in prison for 20 years.

This means, if you are a criminal, we kick you out now. And if you cost us money, instead of making money, we kick you out now. And unless you want to become a US citizen, we kick you out now. And unless you integrate fully into our society, we kick you out now.

This is a LOT more than we demand of citizens native born. But a lot more than benefiting illegal aliens, this benefits us, the rest of the country.

When I say this is reasonable, I mean it is reasonable to most people. There are a large minority of US citizens who do not want any immigration at all; and along with them, there are those who do not want any Mexican immigration. These two groups do not say what they really think, however, for obvious reasons.

But they should be recognized in the debate. It clarifies things, and the debate would be clearer if some would just come out and say they don’t want immigrants at all, or that they don’t like Mexicans, at all.

Lots of Americans in our history have legitimately opposed immigration of any kind, and there is nothing wrong with this opinion.

And while not liking Mexicans might seem “racist”, in truth, it isn’t, because as a nation, Mexico has many problems, and it is reasonable to assume that if lots of Mexicans come here, they will bring many of their problems with them.

Which to some extent has already happened.

[gubamyster]

ping

[yorkie]

Good rant, Condor.

[Nea Wood]

If you are counting on the illegals making things cleaner, trust me, it won’t happen. They don’t know what a trash can is for.

True. As more and more illegals invaded my town, the trash, graffiti, abandoned shopping carts, abandoned sofas, junky, rusty cars, etc., increased. We always hear how we need illegals to do the work we lazy Americans won't do. But if you ask me, it's the illegals who are lazy. They're pigs. Just drive through any illegal alien-invaded neighborhood and anyone can see see how filthy it is.

[Vigilanteman]

Three thoughts on illegal immigrants:

1. If they are really coming here to pick the country up, why are the countries of origin in such a mess?
   
2. If they are really assets to this country, then why did 51 senators vote against the Cornyn amendment, which would have let us excluded the worst criminals from amnesty or a "path to citizenship".
   
3. Is there any other more logical explantion than that our ruling overlords respect and fear the organized racism of groups like LaRaza than they do their normal citizens.

[Vigilanteman]

Most of what you say is reasonable.

But 51 senators already voted against the Cornyn Amendment, which would have allowed us to sort out the bad apples.

Also, I don't think requiring someone to apply for American citizenship should be a prerequisite to them staying here.

As long as someone will act like a guest, behave like a guest and be willing to depart when their time as a guest is up, I think it better to give them a lower hurdle to clear than minting new American citizens in name only whose strong sense of entitlement will forever prevent them from becoming Americans in fact.

[chuckles]

My in laws lived in Arkansas for a few years. They lived close to a town called Ash Flats. A glass company decided to build a plant there because unemployment was high, and I think there were tax advantages to get them there. After the plant was built, they were unable to get enough people to open the plant. Seems everybody was happy with their welfare, disability, or whatever gubmint check they were getting. The plant never opened.

Arkansas isn't like most other places. If you own land, you will most likely have poachers on it hunting whatever and whenever they want. A neighbor found a bull with a missing leg. He followed the trail back in the woods and found a school bus with about 6 people in it on his property. Seems they felt they could squat where ever they pleased and live "off the land". You seldom go talk to someone without your 30-30 if you want to live.

I don't mean to pick on Arkansas because there are many just like them in Missouri and Louisiana. I have to wonder if anything would get done without illegal aliens in some places. I know after hurricane Rita hit Texas, most of the insurance and relief money ended up in Mexico. Probably 3/4 of the contractors were, or hired illegals. Roofers, tree clean up, and carpenters were almost all illegals. To make arrests, all the INS would have to do is hang out at the banks at 4 pm on Fridays, as their lines were out the doors cashing their checks.

[L98Fiero]

“I don’t mean to pick on Arkansas because there are many just like them in Missouri and Louisiana.”

Understood. I’m from Louisiana, originally, and I know for a fact many farmers crops would never make it to market if not for immigrant labor because the local welfare population simply isn’t going to do it. That’s double pathetic, IMO. One of the chief things leading to illegal immigration is them being able to get jobs because sometimes the local populations are so entrenched in a welfare culture that local industry or farms cannot get local labor. Catch 22.

It’s not often said but government welfare is ruining this country and driving illegal immigration. Many people rank on the “jobs Americans won’t do” remark, but It’s true. The Americans referred to, however, are largely a welfare/disability receiving population that aren’t going to do the work, regardless of the wage. Many posters on this site just won’t accept the fact that if some folks are given what they need by the government for free, they won’t do anything else, period, regardless of wages.

[Ajnin]

Many posters on this site just won’t accept the fact that if some folks are given what they need by the government for free, they won’t do anything else, period, regardless of wages.

Like illegal aliens.

[chuckles]

Yeah, I’m about as conservative as it comes, and want the fence built as soon as possible. But to act like America would be America without these workers is ridiculous. I just want them cleared at the border with fingerprints, DNA, and a background check. Then they need to understand their will be no free health care, no anchor babies, no EIC payments, no free school, etc. Any broken laws would mean expulsion and no return. Maybe even require the people that hire them to cover the costs the illegals cause while here. If an employer had to pay for an emergency room visit when the employee cut his finger off, maybe hiring an American might look cheaper. I think employers could say to the government, I need 30 lettuce pickers on such and such date and the government provided them to the farmer, with papers, background checks, disease checks, etc, then the coyote situation would die down. When the lettuce is picked, the government tracks them or provides them with their next employment location. If the border is closed, we get rid of the dope, the criminals( rapists and murderers) and other gang members or undesirables.

Notice I haven't said anything about citizenship, amnesty, or any permanent situation. That is entirely different than working. They should stand in line with the Vietnamese, and Rumanian's, and other people that DESIRE to be Americans. Many illegals hate America, they just come for the money, but would have a revolution here if given half the chance. Many from Honduras or Nicaragua sound just like Hugo Chavez.

As far as Americans go, the children have been raised to play Xbox, and drive their 4x4 trucks that dad has bought them. They haven't had to do anything to earn anything. They scoff at working for even $10 an hour if it means sweating and getting dirty. They have been told that they MUST go to college to make a living and, (this is my opinion), Many children go to college, smoke dope, drop out, and even commit suicide, because they have no clue how to make it in this world. Why is everyone on Zoloft or Prozac today? Their life experience hasn't turned out like MTV or VH1 told them it would be.

I'm 56 and in 1969, when I graduated HS, I could have supported a family being a carpenter, roofer, brick layer, etc, but today, those jobs pay $8-$12 and hr to illegals. Frankly, I don't want to pick fruit or wash dishes for $6 an hour, but the building trades have been decimated by illegals, and these are jobs that Americans WOULD do, if paid enough. If you look at the price of housing today, the builder certainly isn't passing on the savings of hiring illegals on to the buyer. They are just pocketing the money.

We need the fence before the other changes because nobody trust the government after the "War on Drugs" and "The War on Terror". Any dolt would know to win either of these wars requires closing the border first to win it. They really don't want to win either war for some reason. So, to keep illegals out, a wall IS RQUIRED. The hiring problems of American business will have to be worked out separately. If they say they will without a wall, nothing will change.

[L98Fiero]

“Like illegal aliens.”

That seems to be more a western phenomena where they are more entrenched and emboldened. Not really the case YET in MS and LA. I say YET, because once they learn the ropes and become entrenched, they may likely follow the example of the local welfare cultures and guess what? More illegals will then come to do the work that is to be done. Welfare perpetuates illegal immigration. That is my whole point.

I drive through Tallulah, LA every now and again. The locals are standing on the corners drinking beer, talking on their cell phones and polishing their wheels while the immigrants (illegal or not, I don’t know) are working.

[Ajnin]

Many people rank on the “jobs Americans won’t do” remark, but It’s true.

This is not true. Military service, construction, law enforcement and masonry are jobs that I've seen both Americans and illegals doing. There are of course many more jobs that Americans and illegals do.

[Bob]

Cheap immigrant labor keeps manufacturers' costs down, according to the Rockefeller profile. Latino immigrants make less money than natives, an average of about $8 an hour compared to $11. “[T]he state's manufacturing wage bill would have been as much as $95 million higher [in 2004] if the same output were to be maintained without immigrant workers,” the profile says. “These labor cost savings help keep Arkansas's businesses competitive and are passed on in the form of lower prices to Arkansas and other U.S. consumers.”

Well, if that's such a good thing, perhaps re-instituting slavery should be considered. </sarcasm?>

[L98Fiero]

“Frankly, I don’t want to pick fruit or wash dishes for $6 an hour, but the building trades have been decimated by illegals, and these are jobs that Americans WOULD do, if paid enough.”

I don’t really think so. I am quite familiar with a sub-culture that is simply not going to work for any wage if they can get their basic needs and wants taken care of by the government.

I wouldn’t pick fruit or wash dishes for those wages (I have made sure to develop marketable skills)but I know many people here who work at a boat manufacturer doing manual labor for just over $7 an hour or a local textiles place for just over $6 an hour. ALL Americans. The culture here does not seem to be welfare-based as the unemployment is quite low.

Go to where unemployment has been high for quite some time and try to set up shop. and you will find exactly what that glass place in Ash Flats did. Many people just simply aren’t going to go from doing nothing and making a living to working 40-50 hours a week for an extra couple hundred bucks a month.

Look at it this way. And these are just arbitrary figures to make a point.

Somebody gets $1000 a month welfare, or $250 a week. No work is required so you can’t even figure a dollar per hour income. Just “free” money.

Now, that person gets a job offer for $8 an hour which would put their monthly income at about $1280 for a 40 hour week or $320 weekly.

Now, in that person’s mind they are only making $280 a month or $70 a week or $1.75 per hour for working 40 hours a week because before they were doing nothing and getting a grand a month. Figure in taxes and they are paying to go to work.

I reiterate, welfare is destroying the country.

[fella]

The Dallas Morning News gave the same illegal immigrant the Man of the Year award too. Surely this is just a coincidence that the print media is doing this everywhere.

[Ajnin]

Though it wouldn’t serve the cause of the “throw them all out” emotional reaction, a middle ground might be found in treating illegal aliens with the same basic criteria that we treat legal immigrants.

We treat illegal aliens better than we treat legal immigrants and even US citizens. People that enter this country have violated that law. Why should they be given a free pass when so many people have immigrated legally? Why should people that live in perpetual violation of the law be given more benefits than US citizens?

So we need a process by which the good ones, who want to become US citizens, and who *we* otherwise would want to become US citizens, can do so, without leaving the US first, and in just a year or two, instead of a decade or two.

We already have a process. Illegal aliens have said screw the process. They don't think they have to abide by the law.

Now it doesn’t have to be easy or cheap. They might have to pay a lot of money, and undergo strict rules before they can become legal, like learning English well, not just enough to get by, and learning our constitution and our laws. Not just taking a test, but several, and to be thoroughly documented, as well as paying back taxes and fees.

Exept for paying back taxes this process is already in place. It's called Naturalization, it's the way people come here legally.

And at the same time, those that *don’t* want to become citizens, and who *we* don’t want to become citizens, ever, are not just kicked out, but BARRED from re-entry, so that if they do come back, they could be in prison for 20 years

We already have a process for this, it's called deportation and it would work fine if it was actually enforced.

This means, if you are a criminal, we kick you out now. And if you cost us money, instead of making money, we kick you out now. And unless you want to become a US citizen, we kick you out now. And unless you integrate fully into our society, we kick you out now.

This stipulation is already in place. It's not enforced.

[chuckles]

All good points. My sister in law once considered a job for $8 an hour, but after figuring for child care, clothes she would have to purchase, gasoline to get to and from, it would take $10 or more just to make it worth the trip. If you are getting the equivalent of $10 an hr for sitting home raising your kids, then why not hold out for $12 or more to make it worth your while. If she took $12 an hour, she is basically working for $2 an hr. Most of these recipients are single women with children and many have ex husbands that won’t/can’t pay child support.

Most employers don't even want to consider $8-$10 an hr. for meanial work. Your local hambuger would be $9 instead fo $4 if they paid enough to get people off welfare.

And still an illegal will build a house for $10-$12 an hr. in Texas. The American ex husband that needs to pay child support won't work for that.

[L98Fiero]

Yep, exactly.