"All your phase are belong to us!"
Posted on 01/28/2008 1:47:35 PM PST by indthkr
MANHASSET, N.Y. " Is there a thread that ties engineers to Islamic terrorism? There certainly is, according to Diego Gambetta and Steffen Hertog at Oxford University, who recently published a paper titled, "Engineers of Jihad." The authors call the link to terrorism "the engineer's mindset."
The sociology paper published last November, which has been making rounds over the Internet and was recently picked up by The Atlantic, uses illustrative statistics and qualitative data to conclude that there is a strong relationship between an engineering background and involvement in a variety of Islamic terrorist groups. The authors have found that graduates in subjects such as science, engineering, and medicine are strongly overrepresented among Islamist movements in the Muslim world. The authors also note that engineers, alone, are strongly over-represented among graduates who gravitate to violent groups.
However, contrary to popular speculation, it's not technical skills that make engineers attractive recruits to radical groups. Rather, the authors pose the hypothesis that "engineers have a 'mindset' that makes them a particularly good match for Islamism," which becomes explosive when fused by the repression and vigorous radicalization triggered by the social conditions they endured in Islamic countries.
But what is the engineer's mindset?
The authors call it a mindset that inclines them to take more extreme conservative and religious positions.
A past survey in the United States has already shown that the proportion of engineers who declare themselves to be on the right of the political spectrum is greater than any other disciplinary groups--such as economists, doctors, scientists, and those in the humanities and social sciences.
The authors note that the mindset is universal.
Whether American, Canadian or Islamic, they pointed out that a disproportionate share of engineers seem to have a mindset that makes them open to the quintessential right-wing features of "monoism" (why argue where there is one best solution) and by "simplism" (if only people were rational, remedies would be simple).
AHHH! I am an EE
Me too. Now I know why TSA singles me out for extra screening:)
Me too!
I'd be pissed, too.
Engineer’s mindset = can’t get a date
therefore, 72 dates in the afterlife sounds decent
The dangerous mindset that leads to terrorism is universal and is not linked in anyway to Islam. Electrical Engineers are to be feared -- not Muslims.
See, I can do it too. ;o)
Sure. Nerds who couldn't get a date, resent the popular kids, and find very appealing the idea of winning 72 virgins in the afterlife after a making a dramatic, attention-seeking exit from this pain-filled world. Normally in the US they just become school shooters, but there's a good reason why Al Qaeda might be looking to recruit from those ranks.
Wonder what the author’s scientific background is. From an engineering perspective seldom have I seen a problem for which there was ‘one best solution.’ Typically there are a set of solutions each with it’s own mix of tradeoffs.
I'm still leaning that way, but cooler heads prevailed and now looks like it would have been a "slight" over-reaction. :)
I’m an EE too!
SHUT UP!!!!
I KILL YOU!!!!
"All your phase are belong to us!"
That is what I was going to post. They pursue those degrees not because it “helps the poor masses back home”, which is what they feed the lib enablers, but because English Lit doesn’t blow up things.
Oh, and I am a Geology major and Chem minor. I like things that blow up too, but only if they make money and progress civilization.
Put this into the context of the Koran. Once an engineer has accepted Islam, the Koran really requires him to be a jihadi. Muslim engineers will be less able to ignore passages they would prefer not be there. If their reality is the Koran, they cannot be logically consistent without becoming a terrorist or terrorist supporter.
Once again, stupid assed leftists, in order to condemn conservatives, have inverted the cause-effect relationship.
Yeah, I knew a bunch of Arabs in Engineering school.
The conclusions of this study state that I, as a EE, would be more prone to become a terrorist,
instead of those from terrorist cultures being drawn to get educated in Engineering.
Folks in engineering and hard sciences tend to understand logic and reasoning and see where liberalism fails those tests.
And, we aren’t “immune to logic” or “comfortable with contradiction” like leftists are.
It is bunk.
Here’s the reality of the situation: if you’re a terrorist org, you need to recruit people who can figure out how to maximize your effect in an asymmetric warfare environment.
To do this, you will have to have expertise in infrastructure, and more specifically, finding critical junctions in infrastructure, that can be exploited at a very low cost to the terrorist org.
You’re not going to get that expertise out of a liberal arts major. You’re going to get that expertise in an engineer.
Moreover, when in a situation where the response policy and tactics are being planned by liberal arts majors, using engineers to create an attack plan is like shooting fish in a bucket. eg, you have in the US a bunch of policy determined by lawyers. Lawyers labor under the psychotic delusion that words on a piece of paper will dissuade people who are willing to die for their cause from mounting an effective attack.
Engineers, on the other hand, know they are limited and governed by only the physical laws of the universe, most of which liberal arts majors and lawyers couldn’t name, much less cite successfully. Words on paper penned by lawyers mean nothing if you’re willing to completely ignore the consequences.
The best man for the job in a terrorist org doesn’t have a background in women’s studies or comparative literature. Seems obvious to all but psych types.
This is pretty much the defining factor of a conservative.
A lib looks at an issue in terms of what would make them feel better about themselves.
What's attractive to engineers is not terrorism, but rather any orderly, "process-driven" ideology which offers predictable outcomes from a calibrated input. FWIW, I think you'll find that engineers (and similar) are also over-represented in libertarian circles, and for the same reason.
What's happening is that you're seeing an attempt to apply the typical engineering approach to human interactions: take some sort of known environment, apply a deterministic input, guage output, correct and continue....
The problem being, of course, that people don't really behave in a manner that is amenable to engineering solutions. But it is difficult for an engineer to accept this; and some engineers become angrier and more belligerent as time goes on. I've seen it -- though not to the point of terrorism, obviously.
That's not to say all, or even most engineers would behave that way. But clearly some do. They're the other end of the spectrum from the "feelings-driven" madness that informs, e.g., the eco-terrorists of the left.
The soft sciences have a greater propensity toward irrational thought. They simply also have an even greater propensity not to actually take any real action.
They are more likely to sympathize with terrorists, but less likely to actively become terrorists.
I KILL YOU!!!!
Jeff Dunham?
I feel slighted. Everyone knows that computer scientists are MORE extreme than EEs.
When my brother-in-law was getting his doctorate in engineering way back when his main, and constant gripe were all the muslims who were getting an education on our dime and that there were few Americans in the program. He wanted to kick ‘em out a long time ago.
In December I went to the university graduation, my nephew was getting his engineering degree and there were mostly foreign names, but they sounded mostly Indian and Thai.
In a lot of ways it's quite radical.
I'd drop the right-wing and left-wing nonsense and ask if engineers are predisposed to radical or extremist politics.
Consider American Communist engineers in the 1930s.
I don't think the theory quite holds up in any case.
The vast majority of engineers aren't inclined towards extremism.
Also, are engineers that much more conservative than doctors or economists when you consider which side a person's bread is buttered on (public sector vs. private sector)?
Me four. Allah, I am ready.
I am an EE and I resent that remark.
Off with your head!
“...post-modern feminist deconstructionism (whatever the hell that is).”
Ask Hillary...
I’m an M.E. do I count?
As an engineer, let me say this: THIS IS TOTAL AND COMPLETE BULLHOOKEY!!!
Engineering is a creative art, like any other. We use science as our medium. There is no one “right” way to solve an engineering problem.
On the other hand, unlike artists that work in, say, oils or stone, we can recognize something that has no artistic merit because IT DOESN’T WORK.
I used to worship at the temple of Ohm, although I'm a Gates disciple now.
Bill said that if I sledgehammer a Macintosh, I get to look at pictures of 72 women who say that they're virgins.
No wonder every is scared that I might go postal!
Terrorism is not a conservative trait, it is strongly leftist. It is driven by resentment and the desire to destroy. The left in this country see a lot of themselves in the 9/11 terrorists and come to their defense at every opportunity.
I caught that, too.
Usually there is a "best answer" as long as you limit the number of factors.
For instance, the "one best answer" is a lot more obvious if you don't factor in financial considerations.
The jihadis should actually be terrified. The engineer's one best answer toMuslim terrorism is simple and obvious.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can not get it wrong.”
http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/
This is an exercise in fallacy, I'm certain.
All the study's authors have done is demonstrate how a logical fallacy will lead to a flawed conclusion. That sort of thing happens all the time.
Flawed premises: Terrorists hold absolutist, "one right way" attitudes. Engineers hold absolutist, "one right way" attitudes.
Flawed conclusion: Therefore, engineers have terrorist tendencies.
There are any number of reasons why engineers may be overrepresented in terrorist populations. The missing causality could go in the other direction, or the factor could be the same for both, rather than the Engineer-->Terrorist direction/connection. i.e. "I want to blow up Jews and Americans. I need to learn to make bombs, therefore I will get an engineering education to learn what I need to know." --or-- "I want to make my family proud of me. I will become an engineer and be a successful provider. Well, I got the degree but can't find a job. I'll make my family proud of me by becoming a martyr and blowing up innocent Jews instead."
Islamic terrorism is intensely conservative in the context of their society. They're "conserving" what they see as Muslim values.
It's not conservative in an American context, since applying Muslim values requires the elimination of the values American conservatives are trying to conserve.
Now I remember why I left my EE major so long ago.
so let me get this straight....if an electrical engineer went to vietnam in say 1969 or so, then he’s a baby killer squared? What’s the square root of a baby killer squared?
bttt
Well put. I'm met some engineers that think that it's related to intelligence. I think that it's related to logic.
If I'm a liberal, and I have a dead horse, I try any number of things to get the dead horse going. Incentive programs, Offering the horse more money, Better training for dead horses, Holistic medicine so that the horse can visualize itself as "not completely dead", and so on.
If I'm an engineer, and I have a dead horse, then I put on my sneakers and immediately start walking to get to where I need to be.
You bad boy!!
I think engineers would be fabulous terrorist what with how they understand wiring and all.
But this reminds me of some kind of cultural revolution. Yall engineers are gonna find yourselves at reeducation camps. And I am sure you will all improve them.
You feel slighted!! I cannot change a lightbulb, read directions, know which way is south,,,I am a humaniies major. I feel so totally dissed!
It is their loss if women won’t date engineers. And not very smart. You can teach a man to wear decent clothes and not carry pens in their pocket. But you can’t teach a dumb jock skills like engineering, a skill that pays well, while few are paid for their athletic ability.
Well put. Engineers aren’t automatons working from a cookbook but are instead making informed decisions and judgement calls. Sometimes these are made with incomplete information but an engineer will use the knowledge of his/her field (maxwell’s equations, fluid mechanics, materials science, etc) to determine what is possible.
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