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Purpose-driven to the far left
Renew America ^ | February 8, 2008 | Donald Hank

Posted on 02/09/2008 3:12:40 PM PST by Graybeard58

According to the Family Research Council, a new Barna poll shows that the "born again," whatever that might this week, now overwhelmingly support Hillary (20% of the "born again" vote) and Obama (18%).

How is it possible that seemingly devout Christians could support the party that stands like a phalanx behind partial birth abortion and redefining marriage into oblivion and opposes biblical free market principles?

Look no further than "America's Pastor" and the Saddleback Church, where Obama and Hillary were guests last year. Rick Warren, while claiming to be acting in a Christian, conciliatory manner, treating these leftwing politicians as though they were ideological equals (perhaps they are), was in fact spreading the message that it's ok for evangelicals to vote for pro-abortion politicians who spurn the free market, because they are decent folks like him, concerned with the same issues, like AIDS, poverty, and peace. Thus his message is in line with the rest of the "religious left," which, in terms of social issues, can be summed up:

Abortion, marriage and the like social issues pale against the problems of poverty, the environment and world peace. The Democrat message of ending poverty and disease and seeking world peace is a Christian one. It is un-Christian to oppose abortion and gay marriage because this sullies non-Christian sensibilities.

These people have forgotten the lessons of the War on Poverty and the lessons on appeasement taught by the clueless Neville Chamberlain. Sheep-like, their followers fall into line.

The San Francisco Chronicle reported last May:

"Howard Dean, Democratic party chairman, recently credited Rick Warren and Joel Osteen with helping the Democrats.

"Dean specifically cited the positive impacts of Christian leaders such as Rick Warren — [...] — and of young pastor Joel Osteen, .... who has welcomed House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to his Houston-based Lakewood Church.

'Those people don't beat up on other people to make their point and raise a lot of money,' he said. 'And we need to reach out to those folks, and work with them, and not be afraid. There is common cause with folks that we never thought we had common cause with.

'That's how you grow (the Democratic Party) to be inclusive and to control America again ..'"

When all the celebrating is over, the purpose-driven pastor and prosperity-driven pastor, respectively, and their ilk have succeeded in blinding people to the truth, of which older, biblically minded religious leaders once convinced the majority of their flock, namely, that the platforms of the Democrat party are inconsistent with the message of Christ, who did not support killing the unborn, command taxpayers to care for the poor or order nations to make peace with implacable enemies bent on destroying them. In fact He said "you will always have the poor with you," and that he had come to "bring not peace but a sword." Unlike Confucius, for example, He was indifferent to the workings of government. He healed the sick and fed the multitude only to show who He was. Thus when some of that multitude followed Him across the sea and asked Him to "show us a sign," He understood they didn't really want or need a sign, because He had already fed them miraculously. They hinted that the "sign" should be in the form of handouts, manna from heaven. They wanted socialism, a perfect Kingdom of God free of hunger, i.e., essentially the Democrat platform.

But Jesus made it clear that the only bread he could offer them was the bread of life, whereupon many left and never walked with him again. These "social issues" Christians were the faithless secularist hangers-on with ulterior motives.

Most church denominations today have distanced themselves so far from Christ's message that their founders would no longer recognize them. Major denominations have openly Sodomite pastors with "partners" to whom they are "married," legally or de facto. Most denominations will not oppose abortion and some favor terrorist Palestine over democratic Israel to the point of boycotting companies that do business with Israel. Most also refuse to defend traditional marriage. Most denominations, even the most "fundamental" ones, believe it is un-Christian to love one's country, and gauche to deem America a world leader. All in all, most do not deserve to be called Christians and, minus the government incentives, many would voluntarily drop the "Christian" label in a heartbeat.

All of which brings us to a hard question:

If tax freedom, faith-based initiatives and other government support produces a net negative for orthodox Christianity of the kind that Christ and the apostles would recognize as their own, if Wiccans, Unitarians and terror-sponsoring mosques, are equally exempt, and if the IRS threatens right-wing churches with rescission of tax exemption while tacitly approving openly Marxist churches, isn't it time to rethink tax exempt status for churches? This is not as hard a question as you may think. Multimillion dollar church buildings dot the landscape, many with pastors receiving salaries in 6 digits. It should be crystal clear that, even without tax deductions, such affluent congregations as these would have no trouble building and maintaining adequate buildings and paying their pastors well enough, if their flocks were sincere and not money-driven.

There are a few churches that already refuse the tax deduction, most of them poor. They are to be lauded for sticking to the original gospel message, not watering it down to hang onto a government subsidy with strings, nay, ropes, attached to it. Jesus said his followers would be persecuted and not approved by men ("woe unto you when men speak well of you").

Tax exempt status isn't persecution. It's approval. And at this point in history, it appears to be a net liability for the authentic Gospel of Jesus Christ. Isn't it time to give it a decent, Christian burial?

Contact the author: don@zoilandonsplace.com


TOPICS: Extended News; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: apostasy; barna; bornagain; dncfalseprophets; megachurch; osteen; purposedriven; religiousleft; rickwarren; saddleback; trends
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1 posted on 02/09/2008 3:12:48 PM PST by Graybeard58
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To: Graybeard58; Chieftain

Chieftain and I called it on this Phony christian, money grubbing, media hore when he “Purposed “ St. What’s her Name who saved us all from a mad killer by serving him breakfast and reading the Purpose Driven Scam to him!

Fundamentalists are so gullible when it comes to these Elemer Gantry charlatans! Guess it comes with the territory when one is Always right.


2 posted on 02/09/2008 3:17:58 PM PST by Recovering Ex-hippie (We need a troop surge in Philly and Newark!)
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To: Graybeard58
(20% of the "born again" vote) and Obama (18%).

Um, that's about 38%. While I would prefer this to be far lower, it does not seem to match the billing of "overwhelmingly support"

3 posted on 02/09/2008 3:20:15 PM PST by AndyTheBear (Disastrous social experimentation is the opiate of elitist snobs.)
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To: AndyTheBear

Must be the new liberal math.


4 posted on 02/09/2008 3:22:36 PM PST by darkangel82 (If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. (Say no to RINOs))
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To: Graybeard58

Part of winning in politics is too correctly understand why you lost. The democrats lost in 2000 and they convinced thmselves they lost because Bush “stole” the election or the USSC “selected” Bush. That was not why they lost and 2000. Because they never really dealt with why they lost in 2000 they lost again in 2004. In part why they lost was because they’ve have been perceived to be very hostile to people of faith. Since 2004 the dems have made some efforts to try to improve their support among people that go to church (similar to how Bush tried to reach out to the black vote in 2004-he got 19% of the black vote in Ohio in 2004).


5 posted on 02/09/2008 3:23:43 PM PST by fkabuckeyesrule (Is it baseball season yet?????)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

Yup if the republicans lose big in 2008 we can blame it all on Ashley Smith.


6 posted on 02/09/2008 3:25:28 PM PST by fkabuckeyesrule (Is it baseball season yet?????)
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To: Graybeard58

Could this poll include African-American voters, a lot of whom would likely consider themselves “born again” but who usually vote Democrat anyway?

I don’t see anywhere in the article where they discuss the poll’s internals, but maybe I’m missing something.


7 posted on 02/09/2008 3:26:52 PM PST by rightwingintelligentsia (Bi-partisanship: Democrats and RINOs working together to screw up the country)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

I knew when my born again MinL and her 5th husband sent us the book, that this guy was a sh#t sandwich.
Warren loves the freaking Pali’s as well.
He’s a globalist shyster.


8 posted on 02/09/2008 3:27:03 PM PST by acapesket (never had a vote count in all my years here)
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To: Graybeard58; P-Marlowe; Gamecock
According to the Family Research Council, a new Barna poll shows that the "born again," whatever that might this week, now overwhelmingly support Hillary (20% of the "born again" vote) and Obama (18%).

The above numbers do not add up to overwhelming support by born-again to Hillary and Obama.

This article, if taken at face value, says that 38% of the 'born again' support Clinton and Obama.

"20% of the born again vote" is a quote from above. What does it mean?

A student of many of Barna's past studies suggests that "born again" is now used so loosely that it has virtually no ability anymore to distinguish between conservative and liberal Christians.

I suspect that's what's going on here. They are measuring a word for which there is no agreed upon definition.

9 posted on 02/09/2008 3:29:07 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: Graybeard58

Once one looks at Warren, the kindest thing one can say of him is that he lacks discernment. Of course, if the Spirit of God is not indwelling him, that would explain the leftist ideology he spouts for his own aggrandizement. He is quite successful with that ‘purpose’.


10 posted on 02/09/2008 3:30:21 PM PST by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: Graybeard58

The media is redefining the word “evangelical”.

People are starting to call themselves evangelical even though they embrace abortion, gay rights, global warming, etc.


11 posted on 02/09/2008 3:31:34 PM PST by donna (...gay couples raising kids. That's the American way... -Mitt Romney)
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To: Graybeard58
How is it possible that seemingly devout Christians could support the party...

The GOP betrayed them and broke promises to many times...

12 posted on 02/09/2008 3:32:08 PM PST by nickcarraway
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie
The ranks of the politically clueless include far more "born again" Christians. And many born again Christians are good solid well informed conservatives.

As for "fundamentalists", presumably you meant precisely those people who are both devoutly religious and also narrow minded. But please don't project personal linguistic associations onto the real world, rather trust in the capacity for reason God gifted you with.

13 posted on 02/09/2008 3:32:13 PM PST by AndyTheBear (Disastrous social experimentation is the opiate of elitist snobs.)
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To: AndyTheBear
..include far more then "born again" Christians...
14 posted on 02/09/2008 3:33:17 PM PST by AndyTheBear (Disastrous social experimentation is the opiate of elitist snobs.)
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To: Graybeard58

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=dncfalseprophets


15 posted on 02/09/2008 3:35:47 PM PST by The Spirit Of Allegiance (Public Employees: Honor Your Oaths! Defend the Constitution from Enemies--Foreign and Domestic!)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

Yeah, what is Saint Ashley up to these days? Hmmm...


16 posted on 02/09/2008 3:37:18 PM PST by Chieftain (RIP Texas Cowboy, 68-69 TonkinGulfYachtClub and Chief Negotiator, we miss you all.)
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To: Graybeard58
These people have forgotten the dialectic between Law and Gospel. Self referential antinomianism which holds that Grace is whatever makes you feel good about yourself.
17 posted on 02/09/2008 3:40:02 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: donna
People are starting to call themselves evangelical even though they embrace abortion, gay rights, global warming, etc.

I think I'm more "fundalmentalist" than "evangelical" but now may have to study the definitions a little more. I don't embrace any of the things you mention and I believe that means I am "sane".

18 posted on 02/09/2008 3:45:09 PM PST by Graybeard58 ( Remember and pray for SSgt. Matt Maupin - MIA/POW- Iraq since 04/09/04)
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To: The Spirit Of Allegiance

This one?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1961697/posts


19 posted on 02/09/2008 3:47:04 PM PST by Graybeard58 ( Remember and pray for SSgt. Matt Maupin - MIA/POW- Iraq since 04/09/04)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie; Graybeard58; Chieftain; P-Marlowe; Gamecock; Das Outsider; DarthVader; ...

Again, my litmus holds up.

If the media are promoting Rick Warren,
there is reason for me to run the other
direction ... fast!


20 posted on 02/09/2008 3:49:28 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: Graybeard58

In other Barna research, it was found that only 9% of Evangelical adults had a basic Christian worldview, and only 4% of their kids had a Christian worldview on the most basic issues of faith. A couple months ago, Willow Creek came out with research that showed that their people didn’t know anything about the Christian faith and so they are going to re-tool their huge ministry. We have a bunch of people in churches who don’t know anything about the implications of their faith, and it’s probably because their pastors, like Warren and Hybels, are NOT educating them in those areas.


21 posted on 02/09/2008 3:52:12 PM PST by DeweyCA
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To: Graybeard58

Rick Warren says you are dangerous - right up there with all types of fundamentalism. Baddddd freeeepperr!!!


22 posted on 02/09/2008 3:54:46 PM PST by Blogger (Propheteuon.com)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie
"Fundamentalists are so gullible when it comes to these Elemer Gantry charlatans!"

No fundamentalist has ever supported Warren. You reveal your own distance from Christ with such comments.

23 posted on 02/09/2008 3:55:08 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: MHGinTN
Of course, if the Spirit of God is not indwelling him, that would explain the leftist ideology he spouts for his own aggrandizement. He is quite successful with that ‘purpose’.

You cannot support those politicians who enthusiatically embrace sin and maintain your Christianity.

In effect you are sinning as well or you were never saved.

I sincerely doubt that Rick Warren knows what it means to be born again.
24 posted on 02/09/2008 3:57:26 PM PST by SoConPubbie
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To: Graybeard58
The "perfect kingdom of God" is not a socialist government, but a benign theocracy with Jesus Christ in charge of all governments, otherwise known as the Millennium Kingdom of Christ, which is in the not-too-distant future.

Anyway, part of the reason why we have Godless, unrighteous, self-absorbed, narcissistic, dangerous people as candidates for president is that one way God judges nations is to allow them to have evil leaders.

This country still has not suffered for slaughtering 40+ million children, kicking God out of every possible aspect of American life, taking a behavior that God despises and has singled out as an abomination and not only tolerating it and accepting it but enshrining it as protected and equating the sickening, abominable behavior in the area of marriage with the God-created institution between a man and a woman. We still have not been judged for that, but we will be.

It truly is a frightening, horrific thing to be in a position where God has turned His back on you and has given you over to your sin and no longer tries to turn you to Him and away from that which will destroy you for all eternity. That is what is happening to America, like it has to other nations in world history who have forgotten and rejected God.

Believe me, our fun hasn't even begun yet. And as for the "purpose-driven "pastors""?

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:15)

The worldview of the democrat is in opposition to God. Therefore, anyone calling himself a "pastor" who has democrats speak before their congregations and who preaches acceptance of democrat policies, which, with the acquiescence of the American people over the years has landed us in the pitiable situation in which we now find ourselves, is not of God but is of the one who is at war with God.

25 posted on 02/09/2008 4:00:55 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: Blogger

I believe that the Bible is the unerring word of God. Does that define a “fundamentalist?

Of course a lot of people would agree with that but come to different conclusions about interpretations. Hence, hundreds of branches of Christianity. Not to mention the cults.


26 posted on 02/09/2008 4:01:07 PM PST by Graybeard58 ( Remember and pray for SSgt. Matt Maupin - MIA/POW- Iraq since 04/09/04)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Anyway, part of the reason why we have Godless, unrighteous, self-absorbed, narcissistic, dangerous people as candidates for president is that one way God judges nations is to allow them to have evil leaders.

I cringe when I read people say, "God's in charge", he left us in charge (free will) and that's why it's such a mess. If we allowed God to be in charge, we wouldn't have the problems that we do. Abortion is an unseakable abomination, anyone embracing "Choice" is wrong period. Any preacher backing those people is also wrong.

27 posted on 02/09/2008 4:06:28 PM PST by Graybeard58 ( Remember and pray for SSgt. Matt Maupin - MIA/POW- Iraq since 04/09/04)
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To: editor-surveyor; Chieftain

whoa! Editor-surveyor ...you are WRONG!

When St Ashley Smith was all the rage among , yes, fundamentalists...the fundamentalists in the beginning of the rick Warren hysteria were all in favor of him!

The only fundamentalists that didn’t support Warren were the televangelists that became jealous of the money he was raking in.

And none of my opinions about fundamentalists ( even if my opinions are generalizations.. I will concede that) or about Warren have ANYTHING to do with how close or not I am to Christ.

By the way, who are YOU to tell me and judge how close or not close I am to Christ.,,,,time to check out moats in eyes.


28 posted on 02/09/2008 4:10:55 PM PST by Recovering Ex-hippie (We need a troop surge in Philly and Newark!)
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To: Graybeard58
We do have free will and yet God is still in control.

We have free will, and we have chosen to sin and rebel, and so God will let our sin and rebellion and rejection of Him play out to it's logical end and we will get to have our sin and rebellion and everything that goes with it.

God is in ultimate control, and God will make things right in His time, not in our time and not when we think He should. We were not around when He created the earth, and the heavens, and He does not consult with us to get our opinion on how He should deal with a rebellious human race. We wanted our sin, we got it, and we get all the wonderful consequences that go with wallowing in sin. And when it's finished, the entire universe and all creation will know for all eternity what sin is and how much God hates sin and the utter destruction and devastation that sin brings.

Yes, our free will has made a mess of things, and it will be allowed to play out to the end. What we should all be very afraid of is what the playing out to the end will entail in the way of God's anger.

29 posted on 02/09/2008 4:17:18 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: donna
The media is redefining the word “evangelical”.

People are starting to call themselves evangelical even though they embrace abortion, gay rights, global warming, etc.

The media are too PC to call them by their real name: minions of the Devil.

30 posted on 02/09/2008 4:20:34 PM PST by T-Bird45 (It feels like the seventies, and it shouldn't.)
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To: Graybeard58

Oh God is in charge Graybeard58, but we also have a system in the US that allows leaders to be chosen for good or ill.

When the people slumber, or forget God, we have my tagline Isaiah 3.1-12 or so, the effiminate will rule over us, along with the child like while suffering extortion.

Warren and Olsteen are successful authors, people lean on their understanding more then they would bother to read the Scriptures to see if what they are saying is true.


31 posted on 02/09/2008 4:21:26 PM PST by padre35 (Conservative in Exile/ Isaiah 3.3/Cry havoc and let slip the RINOS)
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To: DeweyCA
"... it’s probably because their pastors, like Warren and Hybels, are NOT educating them in those areas.

They aren't. It is all about how many more AMPs they can push their speakers and which band plays first. Then there is the dance show and stand up routine by the preacher on why he needs more money!

32 posted on 02/09/2008 4:22:34 PM PST by Red_Devil 232 (VietVet - USMC All Ready On The Right? All Ready On The Left? All Ready On The Firing Line!)
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To: Halgr
How is it possible that seemingly devout Christians could support the party that stands like a phalanx behind partial birth abortion and redefining marriage into oblivion and opposes biblical free market principles?

Look no further than "America's Pastor" and the Saddleback Church, where Obama and Hillary were guests last year. Rick Warren...

hmmmmm I think you were just telling me something about this.

33 posted on 02/09/2008 4:22:35 PM PST by nicmarlo
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To: acapesket
Warren loves the freaking Pali’s as well.

So does Hank Hanegraf. I quit supporting him when he started waving the PLO banner a couple years ago. Wrote him and told him his "born-again" anti-Semiticism would cause others who believe Israel is worth more than the sum of the entire Arab world to cease their support. CRI's response was to sent a letter asking for support?

Warren, Hanegraf, and Olsten are exemplars of the Emerging Church, which is just re-packaged neoliberalism. What they offer is a bottle of theological poison with a smiley-face instead of a skull and crossbones.
34 posted on 02/09/2008 4:22:44 PM PST by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: Graybeard58
When did born agains start lovin’ gay marriage and abortion? Sounds like the people mentioned in the article are not born again, but born yesterday—pretty big difference.
35 posted on 02/09/2008 4:25:13 PM PST by GOP Poet
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: fkabuckeyesrule
Part of winning in politics is too correctly understand why you lost.

Yes, that bit of unplesantness has to be done with the selection of our own nominee.

37 posted on 02/09/2008 4:26:40 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years.)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

“Could this poll include African-American voters, a lot of whom would likely consider themselves “born again” but who usually vote Democrat anyway?”

I’m sure it also includes many ‘born again’ whites whose Daddy, GrandDaddy, GreatGrandDaddy, GreatGreatGrandDaddy, etc. always voted democrat. Probably a bunch of union-to-the-core as well. Now, add in the African-American and no one should be suprised at this.


38 posted on 02/09/2008 4:30:47 PM PST by DugwayDuke (Ron Paul - building a bridge to the 19th century.)
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To: Blogger
Rick Warren says you are dangerous - right up there with all types of fundamentalism. Baddddd freeeepperr!!!

Isn't that what the Pharisees pretty much said about Christ?
39 posted on 02/09/2008 4:31:37 PM PST by loboinok (Gun control is hitting what you aim at!)
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To: Graybeard58
I had a lot of liberals that were hysterical that Alito would get on the Supreme Court and eliminate these peoples’ ‘right to choose’ (abortion) recommend I read Rick Warren’s book. I just shook my head, these same people told me it changed their life and bark out platitudes about God’s will and all that while they shamelessly fought for abortion. HUH? Next thing you know these people will think their ‘purpose driven life’ is to fight for abortion.

Some of these God books are great but overshadow a fundamental foundation. They miss the point by not additionally touching on right and moral behavior as specified in the greatest simplicity in the 10 commandments is the first step in not being filled with sin that blocks us from God.

Otherwise it is all just flimsy.

40 posted on 02/09/2008 4:33:25 PM PST by GOP Poet
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To: Graybeard58

It probably gets you that label, alright. As far as different interpretations, Warren will find interpretations that aren’t even anywhere near the text. Not even in the same state. He never met a verse he couldn’t take out of context.


41 posted on 02/09/2008 4:48:49 PM PST by Blogger (Propheteuon.com)
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To: Gamecock

ping!!!!!!!!!!


42 posted on 02/09/2008 5:04:13 PM PST by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: Graybeard58

read later


43 posted on 02/09/2008 5:07:32 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: AndyTheBear

than


44 posted on 02/09/2008 5:43:06 PM PST by kenavi (Save romance. Stop teen sex.)
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To: Graybeard58; ConservativeTrucker; SavannahJake; PaulZe; AKA Elena; Oshkalaboomboom; LikeLight; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

45 posted on 02/09/2008 5:43:55 PM PST by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: nickcarraway
The GOP betrayed them and broke promises to many times...

This is an absurd statement. For whatever flaws in the Republican party, they're small by comparison to the RAT party. The Democrat platform is the antithesis of true Christianity.

46 posted on 02/09/2008 5:51:10 PM PST by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma
The GOP betrayed them and broke promises to many times...

This is an absurd statement. For whatever flaws in the Republican party, they're small by comparison to the RAT party.

I think it's a totally accurate statement. I'm a registered Republican, and feel completely betrayed. I don't care a zit what the Dems think, say, or do, since they've made no promises to me other than to be the people I can waggle my finger at and declare "That's what's wrong with America!"

Problem is, it's my party that's fronting candidates where the finger waggling also holds true. The dems are pure evil, we know that, we expect that. Why is the GOP going down the same road? I think it's high time a true conservative party come to the forefront.

47 posted on 02/09/2008 6:43:40 PM PST by kittycatonline.com
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To: kenavi
than

Yep, I noticed that mistake right after I posted it, but it seemed too minor for another correction.

48 posted on 02/09/2008 6:47:41 PM PST by AndyTheBear (Disastrous social experimentation is the opiate of elitist snobs.)
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To: Graybeard58

It must be that the Reverend Warren is having to cater to Socialists as CA is such a hard-left state. Could his eye be on that collection plate? If not, it must be on “Christian Socialism”.


49 posted on 02/09/2008 8:30:01 PM PST by Theodore R. ( Cowardice is still forever!)
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To: kittycatonline.com

It’s GWB’s fault. He has tried to cater to Democrats and Socialists, and the base has gone away, never to return to the process.


50 posted on 02/09/2008 8:31:25 PM PST by Theodore R. ( Cowardice is still forever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]


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