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A Question for FR McCain Detractors
FR | 2-23-08 | Bob J

Posted on 02/23/2008 10:56:29 AM PST by Bob J

Ever since Super Tuesday a super debate has been raging on FR concerning John McCain. I was never a McCain supporter, in fact I penned the post Super Tuesday post "Official FR Drinking Thread" so we could together drown our common disappointments into oblivion.

FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups. The first are those that have always supported McCain, a lot or partially. There are those that don't like McCain but are willing to support him because they believe they will get some of what they want or to defeat what the see as the more critical danger, Obama or Clinton. The there's the third group, those that viscerally dislike McCain and vow never to vote for him for any reason.

The actions and motivation for support from the first two groups seem obvious...they would rather see McCain in the White House than a dem. But for the life of me I cannot understand some of the actions of the third.

Allow me to explain.

I understand you dislike McCain and the reasons why. He is far too liberal on many issues, he has stabbed conservatives in the back several times and he is too cozy with the dems. These are all defensible reasons to not vote for him or to vote third party and you have every right to vote as you see fit and for whatever reasons you hold. What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.

As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H). Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain. On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.

So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.

It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well.


TOPICS: Free Republic; Politics/Elections; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: 2008; 40stateblowout; bobjvanity; goons; huckabeesboyfriend; liberal; liberalvalues; mccain; mccaingoons; mcclinton; mcmexico; mctraitor; rino; shutupandvote; tomdelayisright
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1 posted on 02/23/2008 10:56:29 AM PST by Bob J
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To: Bob J

BTW - I have errands to run this afternoon, I’ll let this thread find it’s own way and be ack later tonight.


2 posted on 02/23/2008 10:57:04 AM PST by Bob J ("For every 1000 hacking at the branches of evil, one is striking at it's root.")
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To: Bob J

Has he given the No Amnesty, Deport Pledge yet?


3 posted on 02/23/2008 11:01:57 AM PST by Haddit (A Hunter Conservative)
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To: Bob J

Two very simple reasons.

First the handwriting is on the wall for anyone willing to see it. McCain isn’t going to win. He’s winning primaries with around half the votes Hillary is losing with.

Second, I see no reason to vote for a losing candidate AND give the GOP a go ahead for a further leftward slide. Instead I’ll write in a conservative candidate to show what I want to see from the GOP.


4 posted on 02/23/2008 11:02:03 AM PST by cripplecreek (Just call me M.O.M. (Maverick Opposed to McCain.))
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To: Bob J

I’m in the second group and voted for Fred in my state primary. I will vote for McCain to try to keep the Dems out of the WH, but in all fairness, I do have a lot of empathy with those in the 3rd group. I do understand how they feel and why they are doing what they are doing. Holding to principle is admirable. I am more of a Reaganite, I guess, in that I’ll take what I can get and continue to work hard for the rest, while fighting the worst of the left.


5 posted on 02/23/2008 11:02:15 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: Bob J

Ack!
6 posted on 02/23/2008 11:02:18 AM PST by 6SJ7
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To: Bob J

Well said!


7 posted on 02/23/2008 11:02:26 AM PST by Vegas Phyl
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To: Bob J

It’s ok. There are many prodigal sons on FRee Republic. When they return home in August or October the fatted calf will be killed and there will be rejoicing.

Their absence will not be brought up as the joy of their return is celebraated. The family knows they have their reasons for the absence and thats all that need be brought up.

The savor of victory in the offing will replace the bitter taste of primary defeat in the spring.


8 posted on 02/23/2008 11:02:34 AM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Never say never (there'll be a VP you'll like))
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To: Bob J

Which way would you rather die, a bullet to the head or an arrow in the stomach? Either way, your gonna die. Take your pick.


9 posted on 02/23/2008 11:03:04 AM PST by MrPiper
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To: Bob J

If you elect McCain as President, he will define conservatism. I am not willing to allow conservatism to mean: pro-amnesty, pro-human-caused Global Warming, anti-first amendment, pro-terrorists-have-civil-rights or any of the other left-wing quackery John McCain has embraced over the years.

I also don’t see why I should be expected to be more loyal to the republican party than the candidate we nominated for President.


10 posted on 02/23/2008 11:03:07 AM PST by Salo
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To: Bob J

bump!


11 posted on 02/23/2008 11:03:55 AM PST by Spunky (You are free to make choices, but not free from the consequences)
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To: Bob J
Logic has nothing to do with it, it is purely personal and psychological. They told themselves at some point that they were the cat's pajamas because they were more to the right than McCain - many as early as the 2000 primaries - and to support him now in any way would be to admit some of their vitriol back then was uncalled for.

They will no more admit this than a cold war red will admit Hiss was a soviet agent. The reason is the same - personal statements of their own are on the line. The farther out they went in slandering McCain, the less capable they are of swallowing any of it and voting for him anyway.

It is a fool's errand trying to convince any of them. Just point out that no one need follow them and they are free to take themselves off in a huff and be as silly as they like. Simple. Also, it is so last week by now, nobody cares what they think.

12 posted on 02/23/2008 11:04:29 AM PST by JasonC
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To: Bob J

“What doesn’t make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.”

A significant number of that group want to see the GOP utterly destroyed so that their favorite third party can take it’s place.


13 posted on 02/23/2008 11:04:37 AM PST by DugwayDuke (A true patriot will do anything to keep a Democrat out of the White House.)
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To: Bob J

Some people just want to stay bitter 24/7, it’s in their genes, IMO.


14 posted on 02/23/2008 11:05:05 AM PST by Dane ("Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" Ronald Reagan, 1987)
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To: Bob J
If viewed from a long term political stand point looking at SCOTUS, the theory goes that if we have a RAT Hillary or Obama in power for 4 years they will only have the chance to replace LIBS with LIBS that will not affect the make up of the court. Also, in those 4 years the RAT would not pull troops or be able to accomplish the lofty goals they profess, creating strife and internal civil wars in the RATS party.

Giving a McCain 4-8 years would disenfranchise the conservatives and the Reagan Democrats that cross over for many moons to come.

I am not completely behind this, but when politics are viewed farther out than 2-4 year blocks, a different picture comes into focus.

Thoughts anyone?

15 posted on 02/23/2008 11:05:06 AM PST by IllumiNaughtyByNature (Hillary Clinton - It's OBAMAS Party and She'll Cry if She Wants to?)
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To: Bob J
So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain?

Well Bob, I'd imagine it's because people come to FR to debate the issues and attempt to persuade others to their viewpoint.

16 posted on 02/23/2008 11:05:16 AM PST by NittanyLion
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To: Bob J

The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to
deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just.
- Abraham Lincoln -


17 posted on 02/23/2008 11:05:32 AM PST by donna (Hope has no power. It is just postponed disappointment.)
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To: Bob J

This is a vanity stupid.


18 posted on 02/23/2008 11:05:38 AM PST by bmwcyle (I am the watchman on the tower sounding the alarm.)
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: Bob J

Bob the problem is misery loves company and cutting off your nose to spite your face is not a sign of wisdom but gross immaturity. The idea of electing someone who will cause more damage is not sound as these setbacks are not easy to recover from. For example we are still suffering from Bubba’s excessive military cuts as it is difficult to reconsitute forces that are fully trained & battle ready. The shortage of ground troops has hurt our Iraq operation in many ways and we still have lots of work to do to undo Bubba’s damage. Obama can put us in much worse condition.


20 posted on 02/23/2008 11:05:56 AM PST by DarthVader (Liberal Democrats are the party of EVIL whose time of judgement has come.)
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To: Bob J

Good questions here Bob.

I have always been behind door #2 and would also love to hear the reasoning of those behind door #3.

Be prepared. I sincerely hope you have your flame-retardants at the ready. I’ve peeked behind door #3 on the rare occasion and there are some real ghouls there.

:)


21 posted on 02/23/2008 11:06:02 AM PST by Chuck54 (Everyone who wants Obama or Hillary as your Commander In Chief, please raise your hand.)
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To: Bob J

Some people think that we might be better off sinking McCain and at the same time send a message that candidates of his ilk need not apply in the future.


22 posted on 02/23/2008 11:06:05 AM PST by umgud
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To: bert
Oh don't you worry, I'll bring it up, alright. The dinner party will be a stand on your chair screaming match, I promise. I'll be calling the hissy-fitters utter fools and enjoying every minute.
23 posted on 02/23/2008 11:06:10 AM PST by JasonC
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To: Bob J

I viscerally dislike John McCain and I vowed many years ago to never vote for him for any office, for any reason. He has *continually* stabbed conservatives in the back for at least the last ten years. He’s a card-carrying member of Al Gore’s evil, anti-human, Stalinist Warmist cult.

Yes, he’s closer to us than Ubama or Hilldog. And yes, he would probably be a better choice, if the next four years was the only concern. Probably. But as far as I’m concerned, if there’s going to be an anti-conservative president, I’d rather it be a Democrat we can openly fight than a RINO we (and our Congresscritters) feel the obligation to defend and apologize for. Pubbies in Congress are more likely to fight a carbon tax if it’s proposed by Obama or Clinton than if it’s proposed by McCain.

Even if it doesn’t work out that way and Obama’s as much of a disaster as I expect him to be, I’d rather see a Democratic disaster for four years, and I’d rather see the rest of the GOP learn the lesson to never nominate this kind of moron again.

I’ll admit it’s a gamble, and I might be wrong. I won’t be spending any time insulting those who decide to support McCain, but I will defend my position from attacks. If McCain supporters want to keep up their tactics of insulting conservatives who aren’t on board I’m more than happy to reciprocate.


24 posted on 02/23/2008 11:06:55 AM PST by xjcsa (I hated McCain before hating McCain was cool.)
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To: Haddit
I can’t support anyone who is on the amnesty page. This illegal invasion is the most dangerous thing facing us as a nation. It threatens our very existence as the nation we are. Once we lose the country, all other issues become irrelevant and meaningless.
25 posted on 02/23/2008 11:07:01 AM PST by isrul
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To: Salo

Another thread is discussing another allegation that McCain gave favors to lobbyist...the media has massive dirt on McCain. He will not win. The best we can hope for is somehow a new candidate will emerge...I don’t see how but this would be the best scenario. McCain will not win. He should never have been the candidate.


26 posted on 02/23/2008 11:07:02 AM PST by nyconse
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To: umgud
Sure, because they instead should run like Obama, since that is what wins (s/c)
27 posted on 02/23/2008 11:07:07 AM PST by JasonC
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To: Bob J

He cannot please Conservatives while in office and will have one term only. Thereby giving us 8 future years of a Liberal Democrat presidency.


28 posted on 02/23/2008 11:07:22 AM PST by BeckB
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To: cripplecreek

You keep stating that. That doesn’t mean anything. In 2000 and 2004 more people voted the democratic primaries than in Republican primaries, big whop-tee-doo.

My Dad was a registered democrat in NC until the 90s. He did it so he could vote in primaries. He also voted for the candidate he thought the GOP could beat.


29 posted on 02/23/2008 11:07:59 AM PST by Perdogg
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To: xjcsa

This is how I see it too. I doubt very much McCain can win-very bad candidate. Thus, this is the election we might as well hold our ground so we don’t have the same situation next time.


30 posted on 02/23/2008 11:08:43 AM PST by nyconse
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To: Bob J

Great post Bob, but no amount of logic is going to convince those who hate McCain to change their minds. Their hate is so big that they want to see ill and evil upon the USA so they can see McCain defeated. The good news is that in the real world they are less than 5% of the Republican base and McCain will make up the difference and much more from moderates and independents.


31 posted on 02/23/2008 11:08:49 AM PST by jveritas (God bless our brave troops and President Bush)
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To: Bob J

I just don’t believe McCain has the temperament to be president. That is the first question I ask before I look at individual issues which I do agree with McCain more than the two clowns. I will vote down the ticket but not President this time around.


32 posted on 02/23/2008 11:08:53 AM PST by Timedrifter
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To: Bob J

I am really kind of waiting to see who he chooses as a running mate. For the WI primary he was running commercials saying he finally heard us on immigration but why did it take so damn long?

Why couldn’t he hear us when we were melting down the phone lines on the Hill?


33 posted on 02/23/2008 11:08:53 AM PST by Duke Nukum (I know writers who use subtext and they're all cowards.)
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To: Haddit

“Has he given the No Amnesty, Deport Pledge yet?”

Has Hillary or Obama? What makes you think you’ll get a better deal with them?


34 posted on 02/23/2008 11:08:55 AM PST by Bob J ("For every 1000 hacking at the branches of evil, one is striking at it's root.")
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To: Bob J

Well said, I’ve wondered about that also.


35 posted on 02/23/2008 11:08:58 AM PST by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: Salo

What is this obsession with defining conservatism? To some people Ronald Reagan wasn’t conservative enough.


36 posted on 02/23/2008 11:09:09 AM PST by Perdogg
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To: Bob J
FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups.

There is a fourth group. People like myself at this point in time eight months before the election, who are holding back support.

McCain needs to move right and I take the wait and see approach.

37 posted on 02/23/2008 11:09:21 AM PST by FreeReign
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To: Bob J

Many have lost focus and fail to “see the forest for the trees”... I have had similiar discussion with those that have MDS and they refuse to allow logic to dictate their actions....

The number one issue facing this country in this election is:

1. The preservation of American freedom.

Some will argue like me that it means continuing on the strategic course of offense against the Jihadists that will tear our Freedom away by use of the tactic of Terror.

The only candidate that will effective do that is McCain.

Hillary will get us half measures.

Obama will resign us to defeat and isolationism, additionally he will tear the military apart and change the DOD from to the DOP.. (Dept of Peace)

Others on this forum will argue that strict conservative values are the only true way to Preseve American Freedom and they do not see the threat as clearly as I do. If we only want 911 to happen once we better be careful who we vote for.


38 posted on 02/23/2008 11:09:45 AM PST by tomnbeverly (U.S. Military; rescuing the world from mysticism and tyranny one jihadist at a time.)
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To: Bob J

“So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain?”

I don’t care who you vote for.

“If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate.”

Options that I am taking under advisement

“What doesn’t make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.”

This actually DOES make sense if you look at it from a conservatives POV. Let me explain;

1. Juan does not deserve the job.

2. He has stabbed us in the back so many times that we now resemble a well worn pin cushion.

3. Rewarding his kind of behavior over the past 10 or so years will (win or lose) get you a Joe Liebermann “conservative” as your next Repube nominee.

Have you ever raised kids? If so, were you big into rewarding bad behavior?


39 posted on 02/23/2008 11:10:00 AM PST by Grunthor (McCain voters believe that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.)
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To: Bob J
So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain?

Dearest Bob, people give their opinions on FR. That's why we post. Why would it be okay for the first two groups to opine and not the third?

40 posted on 02/23/2008 11:10:01 AM PST by Lijahsbubbe
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To: Bob J
Just putting McCain on the ticket is rewarding his long history of bad behavior. (Amnesty Bill, Gang of 14, Voting Against Tax Cuts, constant ass kissing of democRATs, ect.)

What kind of message does that send to other stinking RINOs? What kind of messege does it send to them if we elect him?

He can't be trusted. If this country goes to hell, let it be hung around the democRATs necks, NOT the Republicans.

If it's Hillary, I know how I'm voting, If it's Obama, I'll probably end up voting for the POS RINO.

I guess that makes a 4th group.

41 posted on 02/23/2008 11:10:06 AM PST by Slump Tester (-What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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To: bert
If McCain wins you make ring the bells the day after election. But you’ll wring your hands when wholesale amnesty comes about (unless you support it) and when “sensible consensus” appoints supreme court justices (unless you support it).
42 posted on 02/23/2008 11:11:15 AM PST by isrul
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To: cripplecreek

“First the handwriting is on the wall for anyone willing to see it. McCain isn’t going to win. He’s winning primaries with around half the votes Hillary is losing with.”

Baloney. McCain is presently polling ahead of both O&H so you’re statement doesn’t hold water. Of course, anything can happen between now and Nov but to make that statement now is silly.

“Second, I see no reason to vote for a losing candidate AND give the GOP a go ahead for a further leftward slide.”

If the GOP slides left we buckle down and work harder to bring it back more to the right. Capitulation only puts you on the outside looking in. Much less chance of changing anything.


43 posted on 02/23/2008 11:11:35 AM PST by Bob J ("For every 1000 hacking at the branches of evil, one is striking at it's root.")
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Q: How many of your civil rights and liberties are you willing to sacrifice per election just to get an (R) elected?


44 posted on 02/23/2008 11:11:43 AM PST by CounterCounterCulture (Tagline: (optional, printed after your name on post):)
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To: bert

On the day after the election, when McAmnesty has suffered the biggest electoral loss in Repube party history, there will be pointing. Followed by laughing.

Likely even some “I told you so’s.”


45 posted on 02/23/2008 11:12:15 AM PST by Grunthor (McCain voters believe that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.)
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To: Bob J

One thing I don’t get: it’s OK with you for us to vote third party, but it’s not OK for us to try to convince others to do so? If we believe something that’s OK to believe, then why can’t we advocate those beliefs to others? That seems inconsistent.


46 posted on 02/23/2008 11:12:34 AM PST by xjcsa (I hated McCain before hating McCain was cool.)
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To: Bob J

I belong to a 4th group. I viscerally dislike McCain and thinking he is lying, stinking, steaming sack of waste matter. But I see no other choice but to vote for him even though Hussein Obama will beat him like a drum in the General election.


47 posted on 02/23/2008 11:12:37 AM PST by PsyOp (Truth in itself is rarely sufficient to make men act. - Clauswitz, On War, 1832.)
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To: Dane
Agree 100%. They are bitter and angry all the time, I wonder how they behave in the real world outside cyberspace, they are making a lot of people around them unhappy.


48 posted on 02/23/2008 11:13:07 AM PST by jveritas (God bless our brave troops and President Bush)
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To: Bob J

Well, it’s probably a moot point anyway, since McLame is almost certain to lose. The Obamanation express is on track to derail all things right and good, and it doesn’t look like anything can stop it.

That being said, I guess I’ll vote for McLame, in the forlorn hope that even a RINO can defeat a true socialist son of a muzzie.

But I’m not overly hopeful.


49 posted on 02/23/2008 11:13:18 AM PST by jim35 ("...when the lion and the lamb lie down together, ...we'd better damn sure be the lion")
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To: Bob J
So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.

100% of the push back against insane mccain is because his supporters continually try to force people to vote for him. If no one posts the BS of vote for McCain no will will post back.

50 posted on 02/23/2008 11:13:42 AM PST by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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