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Orthodox Church unholy alliance with Putin
telegraph.co.uk ^ | 02/23/2008 | Adrian Blomfield

Posted on 02/23/2008 4:42:20 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe

Russia's Orthodox Church, despite decades of brutal repression under Soviet rule, is putting its trust in the KGB to ensure that a remarkable religious revival does not fade with the departure of President Vladimir Putin.

In an unusual move, Alexei II, the Church's patriarch, has endorsed deputy prime minister Dmitry Medvedev ahead of next week's presidential election.

The influence of his support on Russia's estimated 100 million Orthodox worshippers is immense.

It also illustrates the unholy alliance the Church has forged with the Kremlin since Mr Putin came to power eight years ago.

The president, a proud adherent, has allowed the Orthodox Church to regain much of its Tsarist-era lustre and has won the enthusiastic support of religious leaders in return.

With his hand-picked successor almost guaranteed victory in the March 2 poll, Mr Putin is determined to maintain the arrangement by holding on to the reins of power as prime minister.

The relationship might seem odd. It was the KGB, after all, that led persecution of the Church in Soviet times, when priests were regularly jailed, tortured and executed. Neither this nor accusations that Mr Putin is restoring many of the attributes of Soviet rule seem to bother Alexei.

Although he has never confirmed it, the patriarch, like the president, is a former KGB agent codenamed Drozdov, according to Soviet archives opened to experts in the 1990s.

Many in the Orthodox hierarchy are also accused of working as KGB informers, a fact that critics say the Church has never fully acknowledged.

"Essentially, the Orthodox Church is one of the only Soviet institutions that has never been reformed," said one priest, who declined to be identified for fear that he could be defrocked. That fate already befell another colleague, Gleb Yakunin, in the 1990s when he called on Church leaders with KGB links to repent.

Yet it is not just the KGB that binds the Church and the Kremlin. In the Tsarist era, the Church was a committed supporter of the imperial rallying cry "orthodoxy, autocracy and nationhood." Critics say that Mr Putin, who draws as much of inspiration from imperial Russia as he does from the Soviet Union, has adopted the same mantra - making the president and the Church ideal bedfellows.

Both have blossomed from the relationship. The number of Russians who identify themselves as Orthodox has doubled in the past decade, with two-thirds of the 140 million population proclaiming the faith - quite a feat after seven decades of official atheism.

Yet most Russians say they follow Orthodoxy for national rather than moral reasons. Deeply patriotic and with a declared intention of making Russia great again, the Church has milked the sentiment.

Priests are regularly seen on television sprinkling holy water on bombers and even nuclear missiles, a blessing that reinforces Mr Putin's own militaristic philosophy.

The Church has even supported Mr Putin's repression of democracy, with a senior bishop last year comparing human rights activists to traitors.

When a prison chaplain suggested that the jailed oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky, a personal enemy of the president, was a political prisoner, he was promptly defrocked.

Late last year, Sergei Taratukhin - who served five years in a Soviet gulag for defying the authorities - recanted, falling to his knees in front of television cameras and won a partial reprieve. He is now employed as a rubbish collector at the cathedral in the far-eastern city of Chita, near where Khodorkovsky is jailed.

In return, Mr Putin has worn his religious credentials very publicly and is regularly shown on state television kissing icons at Church services.

Given his popularity, Mr Putin's example has been emulated by many Russians. The business and political elite have assiduously followed instructions to fund the rebuilding of churches destroyed by the Soviets across the country.

Last year the magnificent Assumption cathedral in the Siberian city of Omsk, blown up by the Bolsheviks in 1935, was rebuilt with donations from the city mandarins.

The result is that Russia, at least in religious terms, is beginning to take on a Tsarist-era hue - and not just in terms of architecture.

Sister Varvara, who lived under a tree for many years before locals helped her to build a wooden church, is Omsk's local prophetess, healer and mind reader - a throwback to the wandering mystics such as Rasputin, who dominated religious rural life at the turn of the 19th century.

Dignitaries from across Siberia visit her to hear their fortune or just get advice. Sometimes, she gives Mr Putin a helping hand. A few years ago she told Tatyana Chertova, a retired actress with a shock of red hair, that she would become famous by writing a play about the president.

Mrs Chertova's play, Putin's Holiday, premiered last year.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Russia
KEYWORDS: christians; putin; russianorthodox
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1 posted on 02/23/2008 4:42:21 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Priests are regularly seen on television sprinkling holy water on bombers and even nuclear missiles

Fascinating.

2 posted on 02/23/2008 4:44:10 PM PST by RightWhale (Clam down! avoid ataque de nervosa)
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To: Tailgunner Joe; blam; All

MAN that so weird having Russian Orthrodx church which I naive believing that they don’t like Vlady


3 posted on 02/23/2008 4:45:27 PM PST by SevenofNine ("We are Freepers, all your media belong to us, resistence is futile")
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To: Tailgunner Joe

I’d read that the Orthodox churches generally tend to be more closely allied to the state than other denominations.


4 posted on 02/23/2008 4:45:29 PM PST by Greg F (Do you want a guy named Hussein to fix your soul? Michelle Obama thinks you do.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

The name Chertova.... Translates to “Devil’s Daughter”... LOL


5 posted on 02/23/2008 4:46:57 PM PST by BigEdLB (BigEd)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Communism and socialism are living lies -— I guess you have to do what you have to do, to survive under it. It is a bit of a paradox; Godliness and Communism.


6 posted on 02/23/2008 4:47:54 PM PST by EagleUSA
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To: Tailgunner Joe
The Russian Orthodox Church was infiltrated YEARS ago and the KGB/GRU influence never left. It was the only way that the church survived Stalin! It became a tool, to be used when and as needed by the ruling communists.

They communists never left power, they only sacrificed a few old men and did a little slight of hand with Yeltsin.

Three steps forward, two backward.

Still movement forward, isn’t it.

7 posted on 02/23/2008 4:51:55 PM PST by Mr. Jazzy (The United States Marines . The finest and most feared fighting force in the history of mankind.)
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To: Greg F

You wrote:

“I’d read that the Orthodox churches generally tend to be more closely allied to the state than other denominations.”

True. Historically, many Orthodox churches were essentially run by the secular rulers. Caesaropapism is usually the term used to describe this subservient relationship of church to state.


8 posted on 02/23/2008 4:52:12 PM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: EagleUSA

actually I read how the church in the kremlin in moscow was saved.

Turns out Lennin ordered it to be torn down and all the little grandmothers surrounded the church and would not leave until they committeed to not tear it down.

Putin is giving more protection to the christians than the USA. The USA is siding with the cult of islamofascism.

What did they expect.


9 posted on 02/23/2008 4:55:02 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: RightWhale
Priests are regularly seen on television sprinkling holy water on bombers and even nuclear missiles

I would call it down right eerie and virtually out of the Hitler playbook - but that's just me
10 posted on 02/23/2008 4:56:52 PM PST by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: Greg F
I’d read that the Orthodox churches generally tend to be more closely allied to the state than other denominations.

Been that way since 325

11 posted on 02/23/2008 4:59:49 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (Never say yer sorry, mister. It's a sign of weakness)
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To: longtermmemmory

Putin is giving more protection to the christians than the USA. The USA is siding with the cult of islamofascism.
:::::::
Good point. The radical socialists in America are doing everything they can to tear down any system that tends to hold man accountable for his actions and measure him in that regard. Religion is but one aspect of that Godless crusade of the radical left. The dark side marches on....


12 posted on 02/23/2008 5:00:47 PM PST by EagleUSA
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To: Greg F

Orthodox church IS in som way a state. Orthodox church is a leader of nations spiritual and moral ways. In other hand, politicians must allways bare in thir minds stanc of Orthodox church.
position of Patriarch himself in Orthodox countries is basicaly “presidend in the shaddow”... something like a cardinal Richelleu...
Patriarc dont lead gov. but he is very powerfull, and if he and Church say “No” no some gov. mouve, gov. will obay.


13 posted on 02/23/2008 5:17:51 PM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe; Kolokotronis; kosta50

Article is pretty ignorant about orthodoxy.
Actually same position of Church is in NATo countries Romania, Bulgaria and Greece.

Orthodoxy is state-religion or better even, religion-state.


14 posted on 02/23/2008 5:20:18 PM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Othodox... Shmorthodox. Follow the money. Always follow the money. The Orthodoxers are afraid of competition from Lutherans, Mormons, Baptists, etc. It’s no more complicated than that.


15 posted on 02/23/2008 5:20:24 PM PST by Seruzawa (A skeleton walks into a bar and asks for a beer and a mop.)
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To: vladimir998

Yes, the Tsars were de facto heads of the Orthodox church, and the Metropolitans all toed the government line. Even under the Communists, the church maintained it’s subservient role. Stalin used the church to his advantage during the Great Patriotic War, even giving a joint radio address with the Metropolitan.

In return the church took up a special offering and “purchased” a brigade of T-34’s for the state.


16 posted on 02/23/2008 5:23:02 PM PST by henkster (Go to the local welfare office or BMV to see what government health care will be like.)
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To: Seruzawa

Nope.
there are many Christian denominations in Orthodox nations. In serbia herself, there are Baptists, Catholics, Pentacostal, Evangelists, but vast majority are Orthodox, and all denomination respecd... well “primus inter pares” of Orthodox Patriarch as a leader of countries christians.

Problem with West is that Orthodoxy is not a religion as Protestantism or Catholicism is. Orthodoxy is culutre, way of life and fundamet of an nation.
Orthodoxy is so much incorporated into scoscieties of nation that is dictatin overall national and public values of an nation.

Per example, when Serbs adress to Russia, they go to President and to Russian Patriarcs, and stance of Russian Orthodox church is as allmost as importand as stance of state of Russia.


17 posted on 02/23/2008 5:28:02 PM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: henkster
Not subservient role at all.
Stallin had to negotiate with Church.
As for role of Church, one of basic teachings of Orthodoxy is selfsacrafice up to the point of suicidal courage in order to protect Christian vales or state.

Per example, when Orthodox child is born, it will be thought to respect church, be a good Christian and be ready to sacrifice in order to protect word of our Lord, and country.

For all Orthodox, Church=God=Country
When country calls you to go to war, it is like God called you. We are thought our entire lives that it is ultimate honor to give your life to God and Country.

That may explain how Serbs, Greeks and Russians fought so stubbornly In wars.

18 posted on 02/23/2008 5:34:09 PM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: kronos77

vales=values


19 posted on 02/23/2008 5:35:04 PM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: kronos77

Russians should have sacrificed in order to struggle against Godless Communism. Instead they betrayed their own people and supported the Communists who enslaved them. Mindless animals like KGB Putin are traitors to the Russians people. Putin was a servant of the EVIL EMPIRE which assaulted Christianity. He does not repent for this, but rather he misses the Soviet Union and defends its evil to this day. Those who serve Putin are not Christians at all, but satanic liars.


20 posted on 02/23/2008 5:38:07 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

....And sam egoes to Catholic and Protestand denominations during WWII.
Was Pope fighting Hitler?
Was Pope fighting Mussolini?
Was Church of England fighting evil of colonial exploatation!?

To your information, great number of Soviet troops were mass-baptised prior to battles in WWII.
Stallin was Godless bastard, but you are confusing STATE and IDEOLOGY.
Stance of Orthodox church was to help defend COUNTRY from barbaric hordes of Nazis, not do help Stallin.

As for Putin, Im not Russian so I cant help you with that.


21 posted on 02/23/2008 5:46:33 PM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

If your countr is attacked (like Hitler attacked USSR) you will obay and defend country. No questions asked.
And yes, church defeated communism, nut by defeating politicians and dictators, but defeated communism trough revival of Chrustian vales and Christianity in general.

Strange thing... Today in Europe, only christian nations are- post communist nations, former Eastern block...
Russia, Poland, Serbia, Bulgaria....


22 posted on 02/23/2008 5:49:21 PM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: kronos77
So Catholics should have fought for Nazi Germany, just like the Orthodox fought for the Soviet Union? Is that what you're saying? Or maybe you're saying that the Orthodox were justified but that Catholics were not justified?

Are you suggesting that Christians who fought for the Soviet Union were just as justified in their actions as the Christians who fought for Nazi Germany?

23 posted on 02/23/2008 5:52:55 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

No. You said that yourself.
You asked why Orthodox Church didnt fought Stallin and communsits, and I simply asked bac why Cahtolics didnt fought Nazis and Fascist in their own countries?
Do you have an anwhser?

Oh, forrget it...


24 posted on 02/23/2008 5:56:12 PM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: kronos77

You wrote:

“Strange thing... Today in Europe, only christian nations are- post communist nations, former Eastern block...
Russia, Poland, Serbia, Bulgaria....”

I’ve been thinking about that lately. Why do we say Russia is a Christian nation? It once was, but is it really one now? I’m not so sure it is. I don’t think there are any Christian nations anymore so much as nations with significant Christian populations. Is Russia really anymore Christian than the US? Abortion is legal in both countries. Divorce, pornography is rampant, homosexuality seems to be growing, etc.

Christian nations? I really don’t think there are any anymore - well Vatican City and Mount Athos still fit the bill of course even if Mt. Athos isn’t a nation and Vatican City is tiny!


25 posted on 02/23/2008 5:57:07 PM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: kronos77

No, you make a good point. The analogy is apt! Those who fought for the Soviets are equal to those who fought for the Nazis.


26 posted on 02/23/2008 6:02:28 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: F15Eagle

“Priests are regularly seen on television sprinkling holy water on bombers and even nuclear missiles”

“I would call it down right eerie and virtually out of the Hitler playbook - but that’s just me”

Not me. I’m Orthodox, although not Russian. I pray over everything. Every meal, every plane flight, every date with a girl. It’s just a different attitude. It’s not much of a stretch for us to pray over the military as well.

If you go to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy here in the U.S., there is a specific point in every service where the Father issues blessings to various entities. One of them is the U.S. Military.

And as an Orthodox adherent in the U.S. Military, I can tell you that I pray profusely over my job every day. I only hope that I will be guided to do my job correctly and effeciently, so that those who go beyond the wire come home safely.


27 posted on 02/23/2008 6:31:56 PM PST by The Black Knight (The Tengu Demon with a heart)
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To: vladimir998; kronos77

“...even if Mt. Athos isn’t a nation”

An autonomous monastic republic is what it is officially called I believe.

I think you are right, at least to a point, Vlad. Certainly you are right if the standard is the Christendom of the medieval West. There are arguably no true Christian nations left. I would argue, however, that there are some to this day which are very close to Christian states, maybe in the tradition of Byzantium, secular evils like legal abortion to the contrary notwithstanding. Poland is an example, as are Ukraine and places like Romania, Bulgaria, Greece & Serbia. Not the Christian states they once were, but still pretty good. And they are pretty good because of that concept that The Faith is far more than it is in the West. Its almost genetic. You two know what I mean. The Faith forms our ideas about virtually everything. As my wife once commented to the Geronda of the monastery outside our village, “In Greece, the people walk Orthodox.”

This doesn’t mean that Greeks aren’t sinful, fallen people. We are, maybe the most sinful and fallen of all.


28 posted on 02/23/2008 6:36:49 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: The Black Knight

Say Putin were to fire one of those nuclear missiles towards Great Britain (he sent bombers to patrol nearby after they threw diplomats out after the polonium-210 thingy and the refusal to extradite the man the Brits wanted).

Will God bless the nuclear missile on its way to kill millions?


29 posted on 02/23/2008 8:10:51 PM PST by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: kronos77; Tailgunner Joe; Kolokotronis
Article is pretty ignorant about orthodoxy.

You are right, kronos77. Unfortunately, ingorance rules. You'd think some of these people would have at least read something (say form Wikipedia) to at least know what they are tlaking about. Naw. It's much easier to shoot from the hip and ask questions later.

30 posted on 02/23/2008 9:14:28 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Most of this is pure crapola, me thinks.


31 posted on 02/23/2008 9:18:31 PM PST by MarMema (kosovo will always be Serbian)
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To: Tailgunner Joe; MarMema; Kolokotronis; kronos77; kosta50
Priests are regularly seen on television

Perish the thought!

32 posted on 02/23/2008 9:27:35 PM PST by aposiopetic
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To: F15Eagle

You know what’s funny about that? I wonder if Russians are asking themselves the same thing about the job I’m doing.


33 posted on 02/23/2008 9:36:10 PM PST by The Black Knight (The Tengu Demon with a heart)
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To: The Black Knight

Yep. Definitely a bit more complicated that two football teams who pray to win the big game.


34 posted on 02/23/2008 9:43:16 PM PST by F15Eagle (1Tim 1:4; Gal 1:6-10; 1Cor 2:2; Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:34-35; 2Thess 2:11; Jude 1:3)
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To: The Black Knight
If you go to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy here in the U.S., there is a specific point in every service where the Father issues blessings to various entities. One of them is the U.S. Military.

That is also true of the Catholic Mass, regarding the prayers for/blessing of our troops.

35 posted on 02/23/2008 9:48:22 PM PST by Charles Martel (The Tree of Liberty thirsts.)
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To: Seruzawa; Tailgunner Joe; kronos77; kosta50

“The Orthodoxers are afraid of competition from Lutherans, Mormons, Baptists, etc.”

We get along just fine with conservative Lutherans. The Orthodox in Russia do too. We don’t have much to say to Baptists. Most Orthodox outside the US view them as cultists. Pretty much all of us view the Mormons that way.

Its has never been a matter of competition with Lutherans. Lutherans and Orthodox have lived side by side for centuries, especially in Russia. Its certainly isn’t with the other two either. With them it is a concern that people will be pulled into cults which are seen as being antithetical to Orthodoxy and the well being of the Omogenia.

All in all, Orthodox people and Orthodox countries don’t believe that religious pluralism is necessarily a good thing but they have a different concept of what it means to be a Russian or a Greek or a Serb (or an Orthodox) than we do of what it means to be an American or a Baptist or a Presbyterian or whatever. The same mindset can be see among Poles and used to be seen among the Irish.


36 posted on 02/24/2008 4:44:22 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: aposiopetic

“Priests are regularly seen on television

Perish the thought!”

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!


37 posted on 02/24/2008 5:11:55 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: kronos77

Yep.


38 posted on 02/24/2008 5:58:52 AM PST by Seruzawa (A skeleton walks into a bar and asks for a beer and a mop.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Is “Patriarch” like Pope??


39 posted on 02/24/2008 5:59:36 AM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion.....The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Ann Archy

Yes in matter of being a head of the Orthodox church, but he does not posess a power that Pope does in Catholicism. Patriarch is first among eaquals in Holly Sinod (coledge of cardinals)


40 posted on 02/24/2008 7:00:59 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: vladimir998

-———— True, true! But we were discussing Russian Orthodox Church as an institution. BUT! No matter how good or bad some churche is, it all comes down to you and me- are WE good Christians. Also, it is a questionable is it a abortion issue a stance are we good or bad Christians. Per example, almost all communist states prohibited abortion, like Romania, and that brought thousands and thousands of rejected children that are looming the country even today. In communist Serbia I believe that question of abortion was regulated in acceptable manner: it was prohibited with only two exceptions if a pregnancy posess a danger to mothrer, or if a pregnancy was result of a rape. Than communism fell and Liberal Pro-westren govt. stepped in, allowing completely a abortion declaring “Woman have all right to do what she wants to her own body” Paradox, isn’t it?


41 posted on 02/24/2008 7:09:26 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: Kolokotronis

“Pretty much all of us view the Mormons that way”

I remember when I first converted to Orthodoxy in college. I remember learning about who I could/couldn’t marry. Apparently, all Christians are fair game, except Mormons.


42 posted on 02/24/2008 8:54:01 AM PST by The Black Knight (The Tengu Demon with a heart)
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To: vladimir998
Christ as the Pantocrator - the All Ruler. The first Christian Roman Emperor was head of the Church and this pattern continued in the Eastern Empire until its fall and later in Tzarist Russia. The State and Church are the same body, unlike in the West, where the secular and temporal powers have always been separate.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

43 posted on 02/24/2008 8:58:51 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop

You wrote:

“The first Christian Roman Emperor was head of the Church and this pattern continued in the Eastern Empire until its fall and later in Tzarist Russia.”

If - for the first Christian emperor - Constantine then we have another problem. Constantine never was head of the Church nor could he be. He tried to be its head, but failed.

“The State and Church are the same body, unlike in the West, where the secular and temporal powers have always been separate.”

Again, there’s a problem there: the state and church were never one body even in the East. This is shown by the fact that you do not have laymen performing sacraments EVER. Each body had its own hierarchy. They sometimes overlapped, but had distinct powers. They were not one body, but one body over another (the state dominating the state).


44 posted on 02/24/2008 10:10:41 AM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998; goldstategop

Vlad’s right, gsg.

That said, there has been a major difference between Church/State relations in the East and the West. I suggest that the difference lies in the concepts of the Oecoumene and the Omogenia neither of which have any real meaning in the West, though the “Holy Roman Empire” was an attempt to create a sense of the former.


45 posted on 02/24/2008 11:08:22 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

You wrote:

“...though the “Holy Roman Empire” was an attempt to create a sense of the former.”

Or a sense of humor! How’s that saying go? The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman nor an empire.


46 posted on 02/24/2008 3:07:20 PM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

LOL....funny stuff. Are you from Comedy Central?


47 posted on 02/25/2008 3:02:15 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian

You might think the communist slaughter of millions at the hands of Moscow is funny stuff, but not me.


48 posted on 02/25/2008 3:21:45 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
I certainly don't, especially since my family suffered under communism.

But Communist ideology and Putin's Russia are not the same.

49 posted on 02/25/2008 3:26:59 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Oztrich Boy

More like 987 AD: Vladimir and the baptism of the Rus’.


50 posted on 02/25/2008 3:29:43 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o
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