MIDWEST VOICES: Let us bow our heads in thanks for atheists

Kansas City.com ^ | 22 FEB 2008 | Linda Staten

[2banana]

The re-awakening of atheism in America is going to make for some very interesting times. Leaders of the Christian Right have spent years trying to cast themselves as the voiceless victims in a secular society, but the scapegoating is over. (Want to talk marginalized? How many atheists have there ever been in Congress or the White House?)

Nonbelievers know a lot about Christianity and Judaism, most having been raised in religious families. Believers, however, are somewhat less clued-in about atheists. Here are a few simple truths about who they are, and aren’t.

Atheists are well-behaved. Atheists seem to play well with others overall. They’re not in the news for getting caught doing things they tell others not to do. Most co-exist peacefully with believing family and friends. They pay taxes.

...

Right-wing Christianity shook the atheist community out of its complacency with its relentless rhetorical badgering and attempts to co-opt the country. A missing piece of the real picture of America is finally being restored. Amen to that.

[2banana]

The re-awakening of atheism in America is going to make for some very interesting times. Leaders of the Christian Right have spent years trying to cast themselves as the voiceless victims in a secular society, but the scapegoating is over. (Want to talk marginalized? How many atheists have there ever been in Congress or the White House?)

Re-awakening means there was an original awaking. When was that? I seemed to have missed it in my American History class.

Atheists are well-behaved. Atheists seem to play well with others overall. They're not in the news for getting caught doing things they tell others not to do. Most co-exist peacefully with believing family and friends. They pay taxes.

Except, of course, for the numbers of people that officially atheist countries have murdered in the name of no-religion; the USSR slaughtered 20 million, China slaughtered 30 million, Communist Cambodia slaughtered 2 million, Communist North Korea has/continues to murder untold millions, Communist Cuba has/continues to murder untold numbers, the list goes on.

Atheists don't start wars on behalf of atheism. They do join the military, however, and contrary to the clich=E9, they are found in foxholes. In fact, there is a lawsuit now against Defense Secretary Robert Gates and a major who harassed a group of "foxhole atheists" who simply wished to exercise their freedom of/from religion while serving their country in the Middle East.

See above. And, BTW, as a member of the military who served overseas in a combat zone, I have never once ever observed or heard of anyone troubled for exercising their freedom of/from religion while serving their country in the Middle East. I throw the BS Flag on this one.

Atheists have a thing for the American Constitution, particularly the First Amendment that separates church and state. They are secularists who support a government free from influence by any religion. They're not anti-religious but nonreligious.

The Constitution doesn't say a word about a "government free of religion" or the "separation of church and state." Maybe you should actually read it sometime. And, in fact, the Constitution itself actually references a God (i.e. the Constitution's preamble with its "blessings of liberty" and that the Continental Congress opened each session of writing the US Constitution with a prayer)

So when people like Mike Huckabee announce they want to "take this nation back for Christ" and make the Constitution fit the word of God, atheists worry, and feel that everyone else would be wise to worry along with them.

I would worry a lot more if some atheists announced they were going to take America back for atheism and run it like the great atheist states of history (again - see above).

Atheists don't take up much space. In fact, they only comprise 0.4 percent of the U.S. population, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey, conducted through the Graduate Center at CUNY. (Agnostics would add 0.5 percent, the nonreligious 14.1 percent more.)

And yet they believe the myth that an even smaller atheist minority somehow wrote in 1787 that the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution would make the US Government free of all religion and free of influence of all religious persons.

A total of 900,000 people isn't even enough to fill 10 football stadiums, but evangelical leaders insist the godless are behind the decline of a whole nation. Uh, okay.

Let's see. Banning prayer in school. Banning all Christmas plays in schools. Banning any type of Christmas decorations, anywhere, in government that have any reference to what the holiday is about. And I could go on. And it also makes me wonder - Why are Christians and Jesus Christ attacked with such viciousness by atheists? I mean, I never see the same level of venom directed at people who believe in Thor, or Mohammed or alien gods of Scientology? Why is that? After all, they should all be on the same level of ignorance, so why the difference?

Atheists make good neighbors. Chances are, if you lived next door to an atheist, you might never know it. Atheists aren't known for going door-to-door or shore-to-shore to un-convert people. They will help you even though there's no heavenly reward in it for them.

Yeah - they just use the courts with judicial fiat rulings and the ACLU, because they could never win in a representative democracy.

Atheists will not infringe upon your life uninvited. On the other hand, you have to wonder about the neighborliness of certain believers when you see, for example, the miracle of the multiplying churches and neighborhood-munching mega-churches.

See above. The only place where you are allowed to utter the banned verses of Jesus Christ are in churches now. Maybe they want to ban the building of churches too?

Thanks to the Religious Land Use law, passed in 2000, it's lots easier now for religious groups to build more tax-exempt houses of worship, often against the wishes of neighborhoods which they burden financially and environmentally.

When US Federal government was small, actually abided by the US Constitution and taxes were but a nuisance, nobody really complained about tax exempt bodies that did charitable work. Now that government has embraced the ideas of the atheists (socialism and communism), taxes are now huge and ever increasing. No one should be allowed to escape them. How dare they.

Atheists are lousy fundraisers. If you really want to raise a ton of money, oh, say on a weekly basis, don't ask an atheist. Go to the folks with the know-how.

No - they have a socialist government take what they want.

Televangelists raise almost $100 billion a year. In fact, they are so good at talking money out of people's purses and bank accounts that six major Christian ministries are under investigation by the Senate Finance Committee.

Can I voluntarily start/stop paying my taxes for socialist programs anytime I want? Didn't think so.

These prosperity preachers tell their followers that God wants all of them to be well and be rich. (Serendipitously, God wants the preachers to have fancy cars, huge houses and the occasional Learjet.)

Now, talk about a straw man argument. I will make a real bet. I will drive straight in a random direction for 500 miles with any atheist from my house. We will stop at every church we see. If we find one church with a preacher who owns a Learjet, I will pay $10,000 to the atheist. If we find none of the hundreds of churches we will stop at, the atheist will pay me.

Atheists are the quiet type. Religionists have counted on atheists' need for self-protection, but things are changing. Witness the popularity of Christopher Hitchens' insightful book, god is not Great, the movie version of "The Golden Compass," the mainstream media interest in the nonbelievers' demographic.

Yes - they are so quiet. The ACLU is such a quiet organization. Stalin was meek. Lenin a mouse. Mao a choir boy. Castro a whisper. Pol Put was just a sweet quiet nap on a rainy day. And PS, the "The Golden Compass" bombed at the box office.

There's a new dialogue beginning between mainline believers and atheists, and among atheists themselves. While militant New Atheists fight on intellectual turf to replace dogma with rational thinking, humanists encourage believers and nonbelievers to get the moral work of peace, social justice and saving the environment done together.

Out of curiosity - If there this no God, where do morals come from? If there is no God, is there good and evil in the world? Why or why not? Who gets to decide? You? Me? A Hitler? A Stalin?

Right-wing Christianity shook the atheist community out of its complacency with its relentless rhetorical badgering and attempts to co-opt the country. A missing piece of the real picture of America is finally being restored. Amen to that.

Restored to what? A godless, socialist hell hole? Do you believe that without Christianity there would have ever been a western civilization? That everything we take for granted in West; freedom of speech, freedom of thought, tolerance of thought, freedom of choice for the direction of you life, scientific curiosity, expansion of knowledge, etc. has all been made possible by the underpinnings of Christianity? Or do you think it just happened?

[metmom]

Haven’t you heard?

Atheists are morally superior to any one of any faith.

It even says so in this article.

What more proof do you need?

[dmz]

Except, of course, for the numbers of people that officially atheist countries have murdered in the name of no-religion
________________

I do not believe for a single moment (in other words I am of the opinion) that atheism has jack to do with the numbers killed in the countries you mention - I don’t quarrel with the numbers, mind you, I quarrel with the connection to atheism.

The folks murdered by the millions in communist countries were murdered because the powers that be saw them as a threat to their power.

[Shery]

Such a sweet face....how could one refute this nonsense?!

[dmz]

Continuing my trend of being contrarian (it’s a character flaw - probably genetic), I would say that atheists are no more or less moral than anyone else.

One need not have a transcendant God in order to recognize, by way of example, that murder is wrong.

[2banana]

The folks murdered by the millions in communist countries were murdered because the powers that be saw them as a threat to their power.

Because these people believed in a power higher than that of the state. ALL communist countries have been brutal towards the Church and Christians. Karl Marx hated them in the Communist Manifesto. It is a key program to ALL communist societies to wipe any trace of Christianity (except, of course, the state run Churches).

[Locomotive Breath]

Such a sweet face....how could one refute this nonsense?!

With this face

[Da Coyote]

The author had a squirt gun. 2banana had a howitzer. Great job, 2banana!

[2banana]

One need not have a transcendant God in order to recognize, by way of example, that murder is wrong.

Who gets to define what is good, moral, charitable, evil, etc.? You? Me? MTV? A Saddam? A Stalin?

To ancient Aztecs - cutting out the still beating heart of a human sacrifices (including children) was the highest order of good.
To a large percent of Muslims - killing, raping and enslaving infidels is the highest order of good in Islam.
To Hindus - Attacking, ignoring, prejudicing against and letting die for people in lower order castes is perfectly alright.
To certain Pacific Tribes - eating your enemy was the highest form of good.

And I could go on for pages...

The works you mentioned are good works from a Christian viewpoint:

Matthew 22:37-40 -- Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

And Jesus also said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Luke 6:31; Luke 10:27 (affirming of Moses) and Matthew 7:12)

But by no means has this "philosophy" been accepted the world over as "good or moral." Not by a long shot.

What makes murder inherently wrong (to Christians) is not that it feels wrong, but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder." What makes kindness to others inherently right (to Christians) is not that human reason says so, but that God does: "Love thy neighbor as thyself; I am the Lord."

For what is "good or evil" without God? Without any footing for moral actions - anything can be rationalized as good or evil. You can just make it up as you go along. Good actions can be whatever society thinks it is with the popular culture at the time. If that be in Nazi Germany or Pol Pot's Cambodia or North Korea - that means doing "good" is slaughtering millions of people and sending millions more into misery. But, by their own human standards at the time in history, they were all doing good.

You grew up and live in a country founded in Judeo-Christian values, so it may seem obvious to you what is "good." But that is due to the Judeo-Christian influences on you (even if you don't believe in God). To others without that kind of influence, doing "good" can be radically different.

2banana

[Cvengr]

"Nonbelievers know a lot about Christianity and Judaism, most having been raised in religious families."

The Word of God is not without effect. To those who are faithful, it leads to everlasting life. To those who rebel from His provision, it may harden their hearts.

The above quote reveals volumes of the author's lack of comprehension of Christianity. Religion in most cases is a power tool of the Adversary, while fellowship with God through faith alone in Christ alone as very little to do with religion and especially the religious.

The atheist is more absurd than Marie Antoinette's "Let them eat cake!" remark. They go so far as to think their belief will void that which existed before all Creation.

[vpintheak]

There is a way that seems right to man, but will lead to destruction. Paraphrasing of course.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

They’re not in the news for getting caught doing things they tell others not to do.

LOL!

Accuser: That hypocrite atheist is telling me not to believe in God but look at her, she secretly says a prayer herself now and then.

Something like that? LOL! What a silly thing to praise oneself for.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Also,

Are we to assume she is not so troubled with left-wing Christianity?

[gracesdad]

” The only place where you are allowed to utter the banned verses of Jesus Christ are in churches now. Maybe they want to ban the building of churches too?”

I must have missed the edict where uttering verses was banned in homes and on the street. Or where it was banned in school during free time or silently to yourself any time.

And you know, I’ve noticed that there almost no churches anywhere in the U.S. any more.

[dmz]

I’m moderately clear on the history involved here, so my comments were not made lightly.

And what is the purpose of the repression? I stand by my comment that the persecution has little to do with the actual religion and more to do with the state’s perception of its ability to control the population and hold onto power.

[BMIC]

I, on the other hand, believe that atheism has everything to do with those nations’ crimes.

Without God’s help, any “good” one does must logically always be motivated by self-interest. I therefore cannot find any truly morally redeeming value to any atheist or anything done by any of them. Thanks to the OP for refuting most of the garbage in that article!

[denydenydeny]

I do not believe for a single moment...that atheism has jack to do with the numbers killed...The folks murdered by the millions in communist countries were murdered because the powers that be saw them as a threat to their power.

Your argument is a tautology. When a government is offically atheist--insisting that there is no authority that transcends its own--all religous believers automatically become a threat to its power.

[woollyone]

If there is no God, from where do we get our higher law?

I mean if everything is here by mere chance...that mere nothingness created everything for no purpose, then there is no law. Everything is a permissible to humans as to animals because we are no different.

mere intelligence or being sentient is no reason either, for there are bright and notso bright animals and no matter the animal, there is hardly any difference in behavior. The smarter ones just murder, rape and steal better than the dumb ones. There is no moral law.

In that case, murder theft, rape...all permissible, because life has no meaning whatsoever, no purpose, no higher goals, except mere existence.

No...there is a higher law...a moral law and each of us have it written upon our souls. It is what separates us form the animals. We are made in that God’s image and it is His molar law that is within us. It is the reason lie detectors work...we were not created to even lie. it goes against our purposeful design.

[dmz]

But it was not just the religous who were murdered by those regimes. Why murder non-religious intellectuals? Gypsis? Homosexuals? So forth and so on.

I’m OK that there arethose among us with different historical prespectives on this topic. I will only say that I have spouting my own.

[isrul]

What a hideous skank she is. Inside and out.

[cdga5for4]

There’s an excellent new book out by David Aikman, former TIME correspondent titled The Delusion of Disbelief: Why the New Atheism Is a Threat to Your Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. While not a defense of any particular religion, it’s by far the best critique I’ve seen of the “new atheism”. The research is excellent and it’s very well written. I received an advanced copy but it should be coming out any time now. Great read.

[dmz]

Everything is a permissible to humans as to animals because we are no different. [snip]
In that case, murder theft, rape...all permissible, because life has no meaning whatsoever, no purpose, no higher goals, except mere existence.
______________________

Horse hockey.

You may think humans are no different from all the other animals, I don’t buy that at all, transcendant God or not.

Our brains operate at a significantly different level(qualitatively not just quantitatively), doncha think? Oh jeez, I was hoping to get through this discussion without resorting to the following: we humans can reason, can do an end-around around our instincts with that reason. We are VERY different from the other members of the animal kingdom.

I think I am now outed on this thread as something of a secular humanist :-) You’d think I’d know better ...

Anyway, we are descending into boilerplate responses, as there is only so much we can do to disguise our fundamental differences in our worldviews.

[Locomotive Breath]

I stand by my comment that the persecution has little to do with the actual religion and more to do with the state’s perception of its ability to control the population and hold onto power.

As opposed to the historical church-led persecution of nonbelievers and persecution of those who believe differently in an attempt to hold onto power?

I've always found it interesting that the Puritans fled to the New World to escape religious oppression from the COE and then turned around and persecuted others such as Roger Williams who had to flee to Rhode Island so that he could practice religion according to the dictates of his conscience.

[hellbender]

I stand by my comment that the persecution has little to do with the actual religion

Wrong. Communism is a completely materialistic worldview, which holds that man is just an animal, and specifically an economic producing and consuming unit. Christianity holds that man is created in the image of God, and human life is therefore infinitely valuable. As a result, communism cannot tolerate Christianity because communism believes that the end justifies the means, including killing millions of people.

Communist regimes ruthlessly persecute the tiny bands of Christians who persist in their countries, even though these believers do not oppose the regime in any way, and seek only to worship in private.

I once read an amazing book by a former Soviet communist who had been recruited by the KGB specifically to beat up Russian Christians and destroy their Bibles and other literature. Eventually his conscience got to him, although he had been raised from infancy as a communist. He fled to Canada, where he was assassinated by the KGB. Unfortunately, I gave the book away and can't remember the name.

[Raymann]

Don’t worry, you’re not alone :)

It ain’t easy being an atheist freeper, just because you hate the socialists as much as any normal person should doesn’t mean we’re always welcome here.

[2banana]

Our brains operate at a significantly different level(qualitatively not just quantitatively), doncha think? Oh jeez, I was hoping to get through this discussion without resorting to the following: we humans can reason, can do an end-around around our instincts with that reason. We are VERY different from the other members of the animal kingdom.

"A young man approached me at a seminar and stated, ‘Well, I still believe in the big bang, and that we arrived here by chance random processes. I don’t believe in God.’ I answered him, ‘Well, then obviously your brain, and your thought processes, are also the product of randomness. So you don’t know whether it evolved the right way, or even what right would mean in that context. Young man, you don’t know if you’re making correct statements or even whether you’re asking me the right questions.’

He finally realized that his belief undercut its own foundations —such ‘reasoning’ destroys the very basis for reason."

[isrul]

Thanks for the info.

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[Ken H]

"A young man approached me at a seminar and stated, 'Well, I still believe in the big bang, and that we arrived here by chance random processes. I don't believe in God.' I answered him, 'Well, then obviously your brain, and your thought processes, are also the product of randomness. So you don't know whether it evolved the right way, or even what right would mean in that context. Young man, you don't know if you're making correct statements or even whether you're asking me the right questions.'

He finally realized that his belief undercut its own foundations —such 'reasoning' destroys the very basis for reason."

And I have a billionaire friend who said, "Please don't cut my taxes..."

[woollyone]

chimpanzees use reason too...so do rodents, dogs and cats.

I do not personally believe humans are animals and cognitive ability is not what separates us from the animals. peace

[woollyone]

molar law?

wow...what a goof THAT was...the law of tooth decay?...*sigh*

I meant to type “moral law”

lol

[Ken H]

When a government is offically atheist--insisting that there is no authority that transcends its own--all religous believers automatically become a threat to its power.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;

[denydenydeny]

No serious person could make the argument that the Founders acknowledged and assumed no higher authority than the State. Our constitutional rights are not given out by the government. They are endowed by the Creator, and the Bill of Rights exists to define the limits of government in dealing with the inalienable (God-given) rights of citizens.

[Tribune7]

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;

Unfortunately our Supreme Court has come to decide that it is the supreme Law of the Land.

[Swiss]

“therefore cannot find any truly morally redeeming value to any atheist or anything done by any of them.”

Kind of funny because there is ones like John Stuart Mill, Mark Twain, noted anti communist Ayn Rand on the list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists

[Ken H]

No serious person could make the argument that the Founders acknowledged and assumed no higher authority than the State.

I am not making such an argument. My position is that in the governance of the United States, the Constitution is the supreme authority.

Our constitutional rights are not given out by the government. They are endowed by the Creator, and the Bill of Rights exists to define the limits of government in dealing with the inalienable (God-given) rights of citizens.

Agreed.

[RichInOC]

I’d prefer to pray to God for them rather than praise God for them. Poor suckers. God or no God, for them, this is as good as it gets.

[rosenfan]

I do not personally believe humans are animals

Then what, pray tell, are we? Plants?