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Montanans Insist on Gun Rights
The Washington Times ^ | February 25, 2008 | Valerie Richardson

Posted on 02/25/2008 3:21:43 PM PST by kellynla

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To: LucyT

“A few days ago someone posted the average Montana household has eight guns.”

Lightweights... I’ve got twice that in a single caliber. ;)


51 posted on 02/25/2008 7:53:33 PM PST by Catulus
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To: LucyT

I have six but my dad has over 50.


52 posted on 02/25/2008 7:54:41 PM PST by Montana4Jesus
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To: mamelukesabre

I wouldn’t bet your life on that one. Most of my friends have at least 2 shotguns (12 and 20 gauge), 2-3 rifles (22-250, 243 and 7MM, 30-06, 308, etc) for small and big game, 2-3 pistols including 9mm, 40 caliber and 44 magnum. Every one of which will put a big hole in you. Not to mention the 50 calibre muzzle loader for the coyotes.


53 posted on 02/25/2008 7:58:05 PM PST by Montana4Jesus
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To: mamelukesabre

“AR10, HK/CETME, or the new FN SCAR heavy.”

What, no M14?


54 posted on 02/25/2008 8:05:01 PM PST by Catulus
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To: mamelukesabre

“A 303 british is just about useless. Where are you going to get reliable ammo?”

By a press and components.


55 posted on 02/25/2008 8:05:47 PM PST by Catulus
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To: Catulus

Dude, get with the times. M14s are antiques.

The military is getting rid of them for the new FN SCAR. The AR10 and the CETME/G3 variants are vastly superior to that old relic. And the G3/CETME variants are quickly becoming relics themselves. Unfortunatly, the AR10 is a never-was. I think it’s HK that has started making M16s with AK style gas systems. Hopefully they’ll start doing the same with the AR10. I’d like one of those.

If I wanted a relic, I’d go for a savage model 99 chambered for 308.


56 posted on 02/25/2008 8:52:41 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: mamelukesabre

H&K is making the 416. Put it in sand or water, shake it off, and fire it.

Marksmen use the M-14.


57 posted on 02/25/2008 9:17:45 PM PST by wastedyears (This is my BOOMSTICK)
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To: All

Bumping this as Second Amendment-related threads are some of the ones I like most.


58 posted on 02/25/2008 9:22:03 PM PST by wastedyears (This is my BOOMSTICK)
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To: Spktyr

There certainly is an advantage to our experiences. LOL


59 posted on 02/25/2008 10:02:57 PM PST by B4Ranch ("In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." FDR)
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To: mvpel

That is pretty much how this individual citizen sees it.


60 posted on 02/25/2008 10:07:10 PM PST by TigersEye (This is the age of the death of reason.)
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To: unkus
See what GOA says about McCain.

MORE GUN CONTROL: McCAIN-LIEBERMAN FR April '01

Gun Owners of America on McCain's Record.

GUNS AND SCHOOLS: THE POLITICS (McCain tries to grab guns, 1999)

61 posted on 02/25/2008 10:10:17 PM PST by TigersEye (This is the age of the death of reason.)
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To: wastedyears

The m14 days are just about over. As I posted previously. The FN SCAR heavy is taking it’s place. The bolt action rifles are going away too. Snipers will be using an accurized version of the SCAR heavy. As for the 415, yep, that’s the one I was referring to when I said an m16 with AK gas system. It’s good. The US military isn’t buying it though. They’re going to go with the FN SCAR light instead.

From what I’m told, the SCAR rifle is a little bit M1 carbine, and a little bit stoner, with M16-ish furnature and FN details. They aren’t yet available to the general public, but this fall they should be. THey will be very expensive though. I’m getting guestimates from 2800 to 4 grand for the SCAR light. The SCAR heavy will probably be more.

I would expect to see all the various AR manufacturers producing a version of the 416 very soon, if they aren’t already.


62 posted on 02/26/2008 5:48:34 AM PST by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: unkus

McCain is a gun grabber. If he gets the chance.


63 posted on 02/26/2008 5:52:13 AM PST by bmwcyle (I am the watchman on the tower sounding the alarm.)
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To: mamelukesabre
A heavy rock has militia utility. As does a butter knife, a box of toothpicks, an empty mason jar, or a 500' roll of CAT 5e cable.

Improvised or antiquated weapons aren't ideal, but to categorically ignore certain classes of weapons just because they aren't as effective as an M134-D or an M60-E3 is just plain ignorant.

64 posted on 02/26/2008 6:15:03 AM PST by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: mamelukesabre

AR10 is over rated. Go for the DPMS variant the LR-308. Sub-MOA out of the box and garnering really good reviews.


65 posted on 02/26/2008 6:16:17 AM PST by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: kellynla

mmmmmmm, state’s rights, again???

Seems to me the government would have learned that lesson the first time around...

Instead of the “North - South” thing this time...

It may be the Mid-West vs. the East, and West Coasts this time...


66 posted on 02/26/2008 6:35:05 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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To: OKSooner

Texas is pretty much there as well...Remember we were a separate Republic, that was invited and begged to join the Union...

I believe there is a similar stipulation or clause in our papers...Somewhere around here I got those...ahhhh, there around here somewhere...

Texas can beat feet anytime it wants, not just because of this issue...

At least thats what I would prefer...;-)


67 posted on 02/26/2008 6:54:46 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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To: stevie_d_64

I would figure some southern states, I don’t know if Florida would join in, and the midwest, vs. east and left coasts.

Or maybe we’ll get lucky and it’ll be 30 odd states or so vs. the FedGov IN D.C.


68 posted on 02/26/2008 7:36:28 AM PST by wastedyears (This is my BOOMSTICK)
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To: mamelukesabre

Is the FN SCAR able to be submersed in water, or put in sand, taken out, shaken then fired without a problem?

It also looks highly modular. But so is the HK 416.

I’d prefer the Heckler and Koch.


69 posted on 02/26/2008 7:37:43 AM PST by wastedyears (This is my BOOMSTICK)
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To: Resolute Conservative

Great for Montana, the state where even most Democrats appear to be very pro-gun.


70 posted on 02/26/2008 8:15:43 AM PST by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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To: kellynla
There is no such thing as a "collective right". To even consider such a concept is to fundamentally abdicate the basis of our government and the Constitution which defines it.

The very authority of our government springs from the inherent authority of the citizens, the individuals. The government governs only because of that authority and the consent of those individuals that it should do so.

In other words, all authority and all rights are individual first. Groups of individuals combine their authority to grant limited authority to the government to do certain things.

But the government never has rights. It has only duties.

It absolutely cannot have a "right" which is not possessed by the individuals who give it its authority!

The very moment the citizens of the USA accept the idea that a government has rights, our form of government will have entered its final stage of disintegration.

71 posted on 02/26/2008 8:25:31 AM PST by TChris ("if somebody agrees with me 70% of the time, rather than 100%, that doesn’t make him my enemy." -RR)
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To: mamelukesabre
Really? I haven’t seen any 303 in years. THere’s no military on the planet still using it.

Haven't been to Nepal or Pakistan lately, have you?

Besides, chicks dig 'em!

72 posted on 02/26/2008 8:31:06 AM PST by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: Resolute Conservative

There’s more. Last year Montana passed a law that allows anyone buying a gun manufactured AND sold in Montana to be without obligation to federal firearms laws. Since no interstate commerce takes place, you simply order it, buy it and walk away.

The list of Montana gun manufacturers is pretty small, but it’s the thought that counts!


73 posted on 02/26/2008 12:01:22 PM PST by familyof5
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To: mamelukesabre
A 303 british is just about useless. Where are you going to get reliable ammo?

.303 is a fine cartridge. Load up your own ammo; components are easy to find.

The cartridge was originally designed to stop a cavalry charge by killing the horses at 600 yards.

74 posted on 02/26/2008 12:17:38 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: archy

Aren’t those actually Ishapore 2A Enfields, chambered for .308?


75 posted on 02/26/2008 12:26:13 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: DuncanWaring
Aren’t those actually Ishapore 2A Enfields, chambered for .308?

Surprisingly, most of the SMLEs carried by the Maoist insurgents in Nepal over the last decade or so have been .303s, often but not always product of the old Ishapore small arms factory in the Indian sub-division of Barrackpore, outside Calcutta, where they've been turning out arms and munitions since 1791. Their production of the SMLE during two Great Wars was extensive, and continued until around 1958 when the new 7,62 NATO rifle cartreidge was adopted by the Commonwealth. But the facilities were still available to turn out those final 1A and 1A1 iterations of the SMLE for the new chambering. They were Not just rebarrelling jobs, the receivers requiring a better grade of steel and heat treating than the earlier .303 SMLEs.

However, the 2A and 2A1 7.62 *police rifles* seen fairly often in India were not as common in Nepal, where a standard FAL SLR was the choice if a 7.62 NATO rifle was to be used.


76 posted on 02/26/2008 2:25:41 PM PST by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: DuncanWaring
The cartridge was originally designed to stop a cavalry charge by killing the horses at 600 yards.

That was back in the black powder days of 1888, the year of the adoption of the .303 for the service rifle and cartridge of Great Britain.

When developed to the Mark VII loading most commonly used during the Second World War- and the Australians wouldn't give up their SMLEs until after the Korean Conflict, in which they participated- it was also suitable for use as a long-distance machinegun round...the firing tables and ballistic *slide rule* for which was graduated out to 2800 yards, just a bit over a mile and a half.


77 posted on 02/26/2008 2:33:58 PM PST by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: archy

No, not lately, not soon, not a long time ago, and most likely not ever.


78 posted on 02/26/2008 3:04:41 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: DuncanWaring

They all were designed for that back then. 30-06 included.

But the 303 is an oddball. It’s got a rimmed case and a bullet of odd diameter not used by other 30 caliber rifles. It’s not even worth getting dies for in my opinion.


79 posted on 02/26/2008 3:29:53 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: Dead Corpse

Interesting. I didn’t know DPMS made a version. THanks.


80 posted on 02/26/2008 3:31:11 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: Dead Corpse

Ok, thanks for your opinion, sorta. I’ll continue to categorically ignore all rifles chambered for that silly 303 british round. It might as well be a 44 henry rimfire as far as I’m concerned.


81 posted on 02/26/2008 3:35:29 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: LucyT

“A few days ago someone posted the average Montana household has eight guns.”

Not .22s either.


82 posted on 02/26/2008 3:39:53 PM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: mamelukesabre

ANY rifle capable of “minute of man” at 500 yards is worth having, even if it only comes with ten rounds of ammo (after being zeroed of course.)

There are very good uses for a rifle that can hit at 500 yards, fired only one shot per engagement. Then it goes back into its hiding place.


83 posted on 02/26/2008 3:44:19 PM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: archy

They were Not just rebarrelling jobs
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I’m not 100% on this, but I think the action is shortened for optimum speed with the shorter 308 cartridge length. And the magazine capacity was bumped up a few rounds.


84 posted on 02/26/2008 3:45:03 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: Eaker; AK2KX; Ancesthntr; ApesForEvolution; archy; backhoe; bayouranger; Badray; Bear_Slayer; ...
CW2 PING


85 posted on 02/26/2008 3:48:03 PM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Mogollon
Well, they'd have brought it on themselves. Too many of our freedoms have been stripped away, and this socialist welfare state they've created wasn't part of the original plan.
86 posted on 02/26/2008 3:50:37 PM PST by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: archy

“Was it like this?” fiercely answered Morant. “No; it was not quite so handsome. As to rules and regulations, we had no Red Book, and knew nothing about them. We were out fighting the Boers, not sitting comfortably behind barb-wire entanglements; we got them and shot them under Rule 303,” referring to the .303 calibre Lee-Enfield rifles the Carbineers carried.

Breaker Morant


87 posted on 02/26/2008 3:51:10 PM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: mamelukesabre; archy

Lot of kitchen table conversions being done in the Chang Mi regions taking old enfields and common hand tools , chamber reamers, go no go gauges made from a few dummy rounds etc to let the Karens use 7.62x54R stolen or captured .

Agree the caliber 303 is not being used THERE as much yet the Enfields are common......


88 posted on 02/26/2008 3:59:06 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. ©)
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To: mamelukesabre
1) Any working gun in any caliber can kill a person.

2) Our guns are very functional to us.

We own lots of long range deer, antelope, and elk long-rifles.

Large caliber handguns to ward off man & bear.

Shotguns, usually of large guage.

89 posted on 02/26/2008 4:06:03 PM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty.)
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To: Squantos

Sure, that’ll get you another couple years of use out of an enfield. It would make a fun hobby if I had an old enfield with a bad case of throat erosion. BUt I don’t. And I’m not gonna either. I just don’t think it’s worth the time.

You know what? I might change my mind on that. A cheap old piece of junk enfield with a burned up throat reamed out to shoot russian ammo is a pretty darn good idea. I think I’d take one of those over an old SKS any day. THere probably aren’t any to be had at a price I’d want to pay though. I’m sure lot’s of people have already thought of it.


90 posted on 02/26/2008 4:22:09 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: Spktyr

No politician can maintain a 300 yard perimeter forever. That’s well within the range of a decent rifleman with iron sights.


91 posted on 02/26/2008 4:22:28 PM PST by Noumenon (The only thing that prevents liberals from loading us all into cattle cars is the power to do it)
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To: mamelukesabre; archy; 300winmag; osagebowman; hiredhand; Travis McGee

This is the basic guide for doing a enfield conversion

http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/smle.htm

This is if ya want to do a wee bit more smithing at the kitchen table......:o)

http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/boltaction.htm

Enjoy yer old enfield. I do . The cups are almost identical too the .303 rounds so it’s very safe ! During my service career I have used the SVD / FPK sniper rifles from time to time and am very pleased with the 7.62x54R round . My old Enfields have new life in em. The basic conversion will leave the surplus brass fire formed with a small rim/bulge in the case unless ya want too set the barrel back a few thousandths to preclude such if ya reload. I have 2 of the rifles that are set up with and without setting the barrel back in such a manner. This conversion , crowning the barrel etc will get another 100 years of service out of the old warhorse !

If ya want the plans to an angle iron scope base for your enfield let me know and I will link ya too that as well !

Stay Safe !!


92 posted on 02/26/2008 5:23:08 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. ©)
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To: archy

The slide rule may go to 2800 yards, but my No. 1 rear sight only adjusts to 2000 yards, and my No. 4 adjusts to 1300 yards.


93 posted on 02/26/2008 5:28:58 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Travis McGee

Thanks for the ping. Just bidin’ m’ time.


94 posted on 02/26/2008 5:32:39 PM PST by wizr ("Give me liberty, or give me death." - Patrick Henry)
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To: kellynla

Bookmark.


95 posted on 02/26/2008 5:36:53 PM PST by OKSooner
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To: kellynla

Ohio Constitution
§ 1.04 Bearing arms; standing armies; military powers (1851)

The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security;


96 posted on 02/26/2008 5:40:04 PM PST by EBH ( ... the riotousness of the crowd is always very close to madness. --Alculin c.735-804)
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To: Noumenon
No politician can maintain a 300 yard perimeter forever. That’s well within the range of a decent rifleman with iron sights.

The record for rapid-fire bolt-action accuracy is 38 rounds into a 12" target at 300 yards in 60 seconds.

With an Enfield.

In 1914.

97 posted on 02/26/2008 5:46:56 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Squantos

Coool.

A hundred years might be exaggerating a bit though. I would expect the russian rimmed ammo will start to get scarce in about 20 years.

Then you’ll hafta chop the thing down to chamber AK47 ammo!

LOL!


98 posted on 02/26/2008 5:48:54 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: Squantos

I know a guy who’s got a rifle, “before” and “after” chamberings I don’t recall, though I believe one is the 7.62x54.

He just took a rifle barrel that had a corroded chamber, reamed it out to the other round, and reassembled.

The funny thing is that the fired brass has two shoulders, although it shoots pretty well.

He does not, of course, reload the used brass.


99 posted on 02/26/2008 5:57:27 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: DuncanWaring; mamelukesabre

Yes that is the only drawback if you do not want to set the barrel back a few 1ooo’ths.........:o)

I will find my link too the angle iron scope mount base for the enfield for ya’ll !

Stay safe !


100 posted on 02/26/2008 6:13:38 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. ©)
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