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Justices to release audio in guns case (D.C. v. Heller)
San Luis Obispo Tribune ^ | Mar. 04, 2008 | NA

Posted on 03/04/2008 6:53:13 PM PST by neverdem

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To: robertpaulsen

Since you are 1000% wrong in the first place, I will try to ignore the fact that you have told another lie. (Like THAT’S something new!) Especially since you have NOT provided any background to show that your “interpretation” is what they had in mind. And since you KNOW that the side which interprets the Second Amendment CORRECTLY has over a jillion quotes FROM THE FOUNDERS THEMSELVES which lend great credence to the fact that the Second Amendment is an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT, guaranteed but not granted by the constitution. And what government does not grant it cannot take away... not and be a legitimate government, anyway.


101 posted on 03/05/2008 11:18:49 AM PST by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: robertpaulsen

Oh... and under Federal law, the militia is all able-bodied males between 18-60 (IIRC) (and females of like ages who are part of the ORGANIZED militia). Which further shoots your theory in the ass.


102 posted on 03/05/2008 11:21:27 AM PST by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: dcwusmc
"has over a jillion quotes FROM THE FOUNDERS THEMSELVES which lend great credence to the fact that the Second Amendment is an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT"

I agree that the Founders talked a lot about the right to keep and bear arms. I also agree that they talked a lot about it being an individual right. We're on the same page.

Now, a jillion is a big number. Out of that jillion, please find for me one quote -- just one -- where a Founder said that the second amendment protects this individual right.

One out of a jillion. Shouldn't be difficult, right?

103 posted on 03/05/2008 11:44:26 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: dcwusmc

The militia today? Yes, you’re right. And non-whites are also included. And it’s not really a militia, is it?


104 posted on 03/05/2008 11:47:32 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen

FIRST, since you made the claim initially, post a source claiming that it involves ONLY and SOLELY members of the States’ militias. From the Founders. if you please.

And the federal law regarding militias... yes they ARE militia men and women and it really IS a militia, the UNORGANIZED militia. And it says ALL able bodied... been that way for over 100 years or so...


105 posted on 03/05/2008 11:52:35 AM PST by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: neverdem
The case from the District of Columbia could resolve whether the Constitution gives individuals the right to own guns

Absolutely wrong. The case could resolve whether the SC will allow the government to attempt to usurp that right, which is granted by God.

106 posted on 03/05/2008 12:50:17 PM PST by jammer
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To: jammer

And that is precisely why the SCOTUS will rule in a close one so the political vagaries may be carried forward without becoming a defining issue in the upcoming elections ... can you imagine Osamabama or the Rodham rodent winning with gun-grabbing at the heart of their platform? Sadly, our SCOTUS has become a political animal.


107 posted on 03/05/2008 1:19:30 PM PST by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: BCR #226
In response to the BATFE coming to every gun dealer and getting the records then going to every gun owner... Well, there are 2300 BATFE agents and about 100 million gun owners.

As I said in my original post, the BATFE (aka the new SS) will just have to make examples of a few families with the media propgandizing the story as "routing out domestic terrorists". From that, there will be a good amount of people willing to turn in their guns. The rest will have the IRS to deal with e.g. frozen assets and bank accounts. The BATFE won't have to do much other than sit back and watch the guns roll in and do a few raids in the hills for us hold outs.

108 posted on 03/05/2008 2:01:24 PM PST by CapnJack
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To: Unknowing

I don’t know; Ginsburg was a former counsel for the ACLU, right? As such, she would have agreed on the ACLU position paper on the 2nd, namely, that they consider it a “collective right” of the states to arm militias. I think she ought to recuse herself from this case.


109 posted on 03/05/2008 3:16:45 PM PST by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: Mad Dawgg
A popular Bumper sticker around here is: "The Government can have my guns, when I run out of ammo!"

And if the 2A is defined as an individual right then the grabbers will immediately switch to attemtped punative taxation to make guns available to the rich only.

110 posted on 03/05/2008 3:28:46 PM PST by Centurion2000 (su - | echo "All your " | chown -740 us ./base | kill -9 | cd / | rm -r | echo "belong to us")
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To: elmer fudd

WMD is where the line gets drawn .... back in the day we had private citizens with warships. If you can afford and crew them, own em.


111 posted on 03/05/2008 3:30:45 PM PST by Centurion2000 (su - | echo "All your " | chown -740 us ./base | kill -9 | cd / | rm -r | echo "belong to us")
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To: BCR #226
Well, there are 2300 BATFE agents and about 100 million gun owners. Do the math. Who is more likely to win that firefight? And believe me, Should SCOTUS rule the wrong way on this one, all hell is going to break loose.

SCOTUS is very aware that this is the most pivotal case in US history. I predict incorporation and a strong ruling in our favor with a 6-3 split.

I hope and pray that you are correct on this one.

112 posted on 03/05/2008 3:43:32 PM PST by Centurion2000 (su - | echo "All your " | chown -740 us ./base | kill -9 | cd / | rm -r | echo "belong to us")
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To: BCR #226; All
SCOTUS is very aware that this is the most pivotal case in US history. I predict incorporation (emphasis mine) and a strong ruling in our favor with a 6-3 split.

Speaking of incorporation...

If you are talking about the Supreme Court's so-called selective incorporation of the BoR concerning the 14th A., I think that selective incorporation is not only meaningless, but also reflects that justices are ignoring the Constitution's history.

More specifically, it has been pointed out concerning the 2nd A. that John Bingham, the main author of Sec. 1 of the 14th A., read the first eight amendments when he gave examples of constitutional statutes containing privileges and immunities that the 14th A. applied to the states.

See the first eight amendments in the middle column of the following page from one of Bingham's discussions of the 14th A. in the Congressional Globe, a precursor to the Congressional web.

http://tinyurl.com/y3ne4n
So given that Bingham referenced the first eight amendments when clarifying the scope and purpose of the 14th A., again, the USSC's so-called selective incorporation of the BoR doesn't mean anything. After all, Bingham had essentially pre-incorporated all the Constitution's privileges and immunities anyway.

Thoughts?

113 posted on 03/05/2008 4:25:43 PM PST by Amendment10
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To: robertpaulsen

Four words in the Constitution make all gun laws unconstitutional: “shall not be infringed.” The number of gun laws on the books at both the federal and state level is a measure of just how much tyranny we live under. It is also a measure of the cowardice of the US citizenry. The fact that we have this discussion over and over again shows just how far this nation has departed from what the Founders had in mind and how weak are “the people”.


114 posted on 03/05/2008 5:13:53 PM PST by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: LibertarianInExile
“If the court affirms a meaningful individual right, it will be a major legacy of the Bush administration.”

You must be putting sarcasm out there without the tag again. WTF did Bush have to do with this? I’m pretty sure his admin weighed in AGAINST the individual RTKBA.


No. Alito and Roberts.

115 posted on 03/05/2008 6:41:07 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

“No. Alito and Roberts.”

The latter was not through any fault of George “Harriet’s my bud” Bush. The former showed his stripes in Carhart—as did Alito, I might add. Roberts also had a chance to sign on with Thomas in Gonzales v. Oregon and did not. I don’t have high hopes for those two, or for this case producing a positive outcome.


116 posted on 03/05/2008 6:55:51 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (McCain is W with a DD-214 and a flash temper. Another 4 years of this mess--or worse? Hell, no!)
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To: dcwusmc
"FIRST, since you made the claim initially"

I never claimed I had a jillion quotes (or even one quote) from the Founders that the second amendment only protects the RKBA of individuals as part of a well regulated Militia. This is my opinion, my interpretation, of the second amendment based on a number of factors.

"yes they ARE militia men and women and it really IS a militia, the UNORGANIZED militia. And it says ALL able bodied... been that way for over 100 years or so..."

I agree. But they're not well regulated. Nor do they have officers appointed by the state. Therefore, this unorganized militia is not the militia referred to in the U.S. Constitution.

117 posted on 03/06/2008 4:06:49 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: Amendment10
"So given that Bingham referenced the first eight amendments when clarifying the scope and purpose of the 14th A., again, the USSC's so-called selective incorporation of the BoR doesn't mean anything."

That's odd. I re-read Marbury v Madison and found no reference to a "Bingham". This landmark case established the concept of "judicial review" not "Bingham review" to determine the constitutionality of an action based on the court's interpretation of the document.

Sure, on the floor of the House, Binghan "claimed" the privileges and immunities of "citizens of the United States" were defined in the first eight amendments. And on the floor of the Senate, John McCain "claimed" that Campaign Finance Reform would not violate the first amendment. So?

As they did with CFR, the U.S. Supreme Court "corrected" Mr. Binham's assertions with their decision in The Slaughterhouse Cases a few years later where they defined the privileges and immunities of "citizens of the United States". And those privileges and immunities did NOT include the first eight amendments.

"After all, Bingham had essentially pre-incorporated all the Constitution's privileges and immunities anyway."

If so, it was the best kept secret in Washington, in that for the next 50 years Congress and the U.S. Supreme Court acted as though there was no incorpotation.

118 posted on 03/06/2008 4:34:50 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: 45Auto
"Four words in the Constitution make all gun laws unconstitutional: “shall not be infringed.”

Would you also say, "Five words in the Constitution make all speech laws unconstitutional: “Congress shall make no law"? Laws against libel and slander, the publication of national secrets, incitement, copyright, and obscenity are all unconstitutional?

Forget about prior restraint -- speech is restricted as to when, where, and the manner in which something is said in addition to the content. And leave out the second amendment. Are you saying that a law against say, libel, is unconstitutional because the first amendment reads, "Congress shall make NO law ..."?

119 posted on 03/06/2008 4:57:55 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: 45Auto

Her former representation of the ACLU arguably gives the appearance of impropriety should she argue for a collective right.


120 posted on 03/06/2008 6:17:11 AM PST by Unknowing (Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country.)
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To: robertpaulsen; All
Sure, on the floor of the House, Binghan "claimed" the privileges and immunities of "citizens of the United States" were defined in the first eight amendments.

Dare we trust John Bingham, the main author of Sec. 1 of the 14th A., about what he wanted Sec. 1 to mean? Jefferson put it this way.

"The true key for the construction of everything doubtful in a law is the intention of the law-makers. This is most safely gathered from the words, but may be sought also in extraneous circumstances provided they do not contradict the express words of the law." --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1808. ME 12:59

121 posted on 03/06/2008 9:23:34 AM PST by Amendment10
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To: Amendment10
"Dare we trust John Bingham, the main author of Sec. 1 of the 14th A., about what he wanted Sec. 1 to mean?"

No one else did. Not Congress. Not the courts.

For the next 50 years after the ratification of the 14th amendment, nothing changed. Congress acted as though the BOR only applied to the federal government and that's how the courts continued to rule.

Bingham was also the author of Section 5, was he not? Dare we trust John Bingham, the main author of Sec. 5 of the 14th A., about what he wanted Sec. 5 to mean?

Section 5 states that Congress was to enforce the provisions of the 14th amendment through legislation -- not the courts through judicial edicts.

122 posted on 03/06/2008 9:50:08 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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