Posted on 03/05/2008 12:28:56 AM PST by Simi Valley Tom
Historical facts clearly prove the murderous evils of atheism and big government
At a minimum, atheist dictators in the Soviet Union, Red China, Cambodia, North Korea, Vietnam, and Yugoslavia murdered 105 million people in the 20th Century, more than 60% of the mass murders, genocide and political murders in that time.
In comparison, only about 2% of the 169 million examples of democide in the 20th Century were due to religious conflict.
Also in comparison, the Crusades murdered only 1 million people over several centuries, the Spanish Inquisition only murdered 350,000 people over several centuries, and the witch hunts added up together only killed about 100,000 people from 1400 A.D. to 1800 A.D. In fact, before the 20th century, religious conflict only accounted for about 3% of the genocide, mass murders and political/religious murders, or democide, in the world during recorded history.
Furthermore, regarding the Crusades, it should be noted that they were undertaken to defend people, including Christians, against the murderous tyrannical hordes of Mohammed’s children, who continue to ravage the world and destroy true human liberty and dignity under the God of the Bible.
Thus, Americans, Latin Americans, Europeans, Africans, Asians, Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, and Polynesians have more to fear from a big atheist government than a few moral reforms supported by Evangelical Christians, such as pro-life laws against abortion, laws against same-sex marriage and the cleansing of the culture of moral filth and gross obscenity.
Of course, as Paul writes in Romans, the government is established by God to commend the good and punish the wrongdoer. Properly run, the government should therefore hold no terror for the Bible-believing Christian who does good, including those fighting abortion, same-sex marriage and depravity in the mass media.
- www.godandscience.org and MOVIEGUIDE®, www.movieguide.org.
I have heard that Osama bin Laden is not an atheist.
One of the core beliefs of Communism is atheism.
Yes, so?
Communism also believed in physics and the sciences. Should these be shunned because of the association too, as per the logic you were attempting to propound?
Had the author used Communism, instead of Atheism, he would be more on target.
BTW, Hitler was not Atheist.
An assumption which would surprise the New World's first communists, The Pilgrim Fathers, who abandoned it not out of religious argument, but simply because it did not work.
Communism kills people for political purposes, and atheism is tied directly to Communism.
The article is using Communism (Marxism) in the 20th century, which is tied to atheism.
Again, confusion.
Atheism is just the refusal to accept the presence or existence of (a) “supernatural” master(s). That is all. Full-stop. Communism is a lot more than that.
Barring divine intervention, there is nothing on earth or beyond that can make a real Atheist become Gnostic.
What exactly in Atheism motivates one to kill? Are murderes, say, in America, more likely to be Atheists? Or is the contrary the truth?
Barring divine intervention, there is nothing on earth or beyond that can make a real Atheist become Gnostic.
I know.
What exactly in Atheism motivates one to kill? Are murderes, say, in America, more likely to be Atheists? Or is the contrary the truth?
Communist dictators have killed people who have faith for no reason other then they're not atheist. Do you honestly believe that would have happened if the dictator was a Buddhist?
Japan's WW-2 emperor was not an atheist. Neither was Hitler.
Now, what do you believe?
Did Stalin and the others kill specifically for the sake of Atheism?
is a very big yes.
If yes, he would have eliminated people of all faiths in the USSR, in totality. He was clearly capable of doing so, but he didn’t. He killed enough to consolidate his political position. Again, he was more Communist than he was Atheist.
Now that I’ve said this, what do you have to say about the religious background of murderers in a non-Communist country? Are they all Atheists, and in majority?
How many core beliefs of Communism are there? Could you name a few more?
He had a country of several million people, he couldn't have killed off every single theist.
He killed enough to consolidate his political position. Again, he was more Communist than he was Atheist.
He killed them simply because they weren't atheist.
Now that I've said this, what do you have to say about the religious background of murderers in a non-Communist country? Are they all Atheists, and in majority?
Well, first, I'm going to guess that you're an atheist. And I'm going to guess that you believe that almost no one has ever been killed for atheism. And, when confronted with religious persecution of atheism, you're trying to grab moral high ground by saying that it isn't atheism, but communism that's the bad guy.
Look, I'm against murder and religious persecution. But for the love of God, get off your high horse and quit acting like atheism has clean hands here. What does communism have against theism anyway?
No private ownership.
The premise of the article, and the author, are the ones on high-horses here.
He killed hundreds of millions, as per the article, but couldn't finish off anyone of faith? Come on!
I can certainly see your point there.
But maybe you can enlighten me: Do you know of any other socioeconomic system that has advocated the persecution of any and all theists the way communism does?
No, he killed when they became a real or imagined threat to his political position. He killed hundreds and thousands of fellow Communists too, especially scientists who failed. Stalin, like Hitler and others, was a truly sick, and would stop at nothing.
Couldn't finish off everyone of faith. He would have to know where everyone was to be able to kill all of them. I hope you just misread what I wrote...
No, I do not see any. But that is Communism, and we are discussing Atheism here.
Look, we don't need to talk about just Stalin here. There is plenty of religious persecution at the hands of communism to go around. Try going to a communist country and walking around with a Bible or Koran on display and see how they react.
To start with, he could have steam-rolled (as in, kill every living soul, in totality) present religious troublemakers like those in Albania and Chechnya, and have no one bother him with questions or opposition. Why did he not choose that option? Because they were not a political threat to him.
Okay, then maybe you can find me a modern communist government that isn't officially atheist.
Yes, I cannot disagree with you. Again, this is Communism, not Atheism. Like I asked earlier, Science was one of the pillars used to propagate Communism, too. Should we shun Science?
France is officially secular. ‘Secular’ is open-code for ‘atheist’.
Atheism has been the tool of Communists that was used to murder millions. So has religion been used for the same purposes. Accuse the one behind the weapon, and not the weapon itself, for the crimes.
An interesting discussion. The original post’s glib statements about who killed how many are a clue as to the author’s fundamental carelessness. X “only” murdered Y people, while U murdered over Z people, therefore U is nastier than X. Sigh. History is a bit messier than that.
A good reference for thinking through the experience of 20th century mass murder is:
“Twentieth Century Book of the Dead”
by Gil Elliot
http://www.amazon.com/Twentieth-century-book-dead-Elliot/dp/0684131153
I read a library copy years ago, then tracked down a used copy when I found it was out of print. I’m not sure why it hasn’t been re-published. A stunning book.
For the record, I’m an ex-atheist who used to see all of these sorts of arguments as decisive evidence for the evils of religion, until I realized how murderous both “religious” and “irreligious” humans have been over time. It forced me to reconsider what the underlying issues are, and I eventually became a “mere Christian”. Elliot’s book was one of the little nudges I received along the way.
Yes, and again, modern communist governments are officially atheist. Given that, do you honestly think it is a big coincidence that communist governments persecute all forms of theism?
Capitalism Assumes people are basically selfish and will work hardest to benefit themselves and pass their neighbors by.
God tells us that we are ALL selfish by nature. Thus communism goes against the Christian principle of man's nature being sinful(selfish). Capitalism is the system that would be most likely to work best if God is correct about our selfish nature. Therefore only a foolish Christian would expect an altruistic system to work on large groups of people exercising their natural preferences outside of God's constant intervention. The story of Annanias and Sapphira illustrates how two people naturally chose to lie about their property rather than be altruistic while claiming to be altruistic even though they were holding back some of their property from the altruistic sharing. Needless to say communism will always need heavy handed enforcement to force people to comply against their nature.
btt
If so, why do they have churches, pagodas and mosques in China? They might as well slaughter them to oblivion... lot cheaper, and easier too.
Additionally, all Communist governments promote and propagate athletic and scientific institutions with an extreme passion, far more enthusiastically than they do, Atheism. Should we shun these, too?
Recognise the criminal behind the weapon- Communism.
Yes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is the root of Communism. And it is wrong.
But to club Communism with Atheism, and mix arguments, will convince none.
Selfishness is recognised in all religions, by the way, since the dawn of time.
Thanks for your insight!
Well, those churches are underground churches, because they would be persecuted by the gov't if they tried to worship in the open.
Additionally, all Communist governments promote and propagate athletic and scientific institutions with an extreme passion, far more enthusiastically than they do, Atheism. Should we shun these, too?
No.
Look, you don't have to shun anything if you don't want to. But I'm getting really tired of these self righteous, self proclaimed brights trying to convince everyone that their way is so good and pure while everyone else's is evil.
Yes, and another aspect the author of the original post ignores out of convenience, is the advantage of time that the Communists and other modern mass-murderers had- technology.
Want to bet on the efficiency of the Inquisition, had the machine gun, electronic telecommunications and nuclear bombs been invented in the Middle Ages?
I think you answer the question well in post 20.
The world over the centuries has seen millions exterminated in the name of communism, nazism and yes, manifest destiny. Each of these motives were based on a political or social philosophy that rationalized the murder of millions to achieve a certain goal.
More likely, the common thread is the lack of lack of democratic structure in each of the mass killings mentioned. Since, communism lacks such a structure, it makes it easier for a leader to take such action and the people without any democratic power must take the brunt of the wrath or simply watch and hope they are not next.
Thus, it would be much easier for China to send people to death camps than it would be the US or a European democracy. The present day examples would be Sudan and Rwanda where hundreds of thousands have been killed. Not atheists, but mass murder.
Xishiku Cathedral, Beijing, China.
But I'm getting really tired of these self righteous, self proclaimed brights trying to convince everyone that their way is so good and pure while everyone else's is evil.
You are not alone on this, especially when the author's original premise is considered.
Yes, lack of technology at the time of the Inquisition along with the fact that populations were significantly lower then then they were in the 20th century.
If you were to examine percentage of the populations killed during these evens you might arrive at a much different picture.
Even a thinking atheist should see communism goes against human nature.
The problem is they are deceived in a lot of things, not just victims of a single mistake.
In this report, Human Rights Watch/Asia focuses on the persistent crackdown against religious expression of Catholics and Protestants. We note, however, that repression in China is directed against all religions, the five that are officially recognized (Buddhism, Daoism, Islam. Catholicism, and Protestantism) and all allegedly aberrant and superstitious sects.
I really can't understand how you can look at things like that, a gov't that is atheist, persecuting EVERY religion, and not draw a conclusion that atheism plays a major part in that.
Good night.
You mentioned ‘official’ Atheist governments, and you also mentioned their recognition of five major religions.
Logical Dissonance.
Or closer to the truth, Political Advantage.
Zimbabwe
"...people would be naturally selfish if their progeny survived over generations solely by how strong their self-preservation and self-replication urges were, and how willing they were to kill others to save themselves in times of conflict."
The people, as in the general population, or the specific ancestors of the progeny? Could you please elaborate?
Even a thinking atheist should see communism goes against human nature.
You don't need to be an Atheist to figure that out. Common-sense notions of freedom and economics more than suffices.
The problem is they are deceived in a lot of things, not just victims of a single mistake.
On the whole, a lot of people are stupid, despite and/or because of, their beliefs. I am not referring only to Atheists.
Yes, indeed. I’ve noticed your interest in such discussions, and thought this might interest you.
[Historical facts clearly prove the murderous evils of atheism and big government
At a minimum, atheist dictators in the Soviet Union, Red China, Cambodia, North Korea, Vietnam, and Yugoslavia murdered 105 million people in the 20th Century, more than 60% of the mass murders, genocide and political murders in that time.]
And though the facts can not be disputed, the majority will simply choose to ignore the facts if the facts upset their opinions, hence proving the fact that the children of men are proud,vain and liars and will always abuse power to benefit themselves. Only GOD is good.
Redundant.
[Did Stalin and the others kill specifically for the sake of Atheism? Or did they do so for political purposes? It’s important to make a distinction.]
If men do not beleive they are accountable for their sin, they will break every commandment of God in their lust for power and greed and will eventually stand before the Lord God Christ Jesus in the day of their judgement.
This is why I cling to the cross, that I may be forgiven all my sin against God and His only begotten son, Jesus of Nazareth.
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