Education: Computer science graduating class of 2007 smallest this decade

ComputerWorld ^ | 2008-05-08 | Patrick Thibodeau

[Etoo]

>>Yeah, I left the field. I was just learning COBOL

Hmm, you probably don’t want to hear this now but you probably coulda done pretty well with COBOL for a while.

Lots of legacy code out there... and of course the COBOL survivors made a killing at Y2K. I knew a few “COBOL dudes”.

But I hear ya. If I had it to do again, I think I’d have been a fireman. Almost became a cop, back in ‘82; but my dad was a cop for over 25 years and he and his co-workers talked me out of it because things were changing (affirmative action) and I had an opportunity to “Get into computers”.

I.S. has been good to me, but it’s not a path I’ll encourage any of my kids to follow.

[rabscuttle385]

Since when is programming a “low level job”.

Designing (engineering) large-scale software systems is a high level job. Implementing the system's guts in the latest commodity language (Java and C#, for example) is not as high level.

There is a world of a difference between Programming and Software Engineering.

[rabscuttle385]

I sure don’t recommend Computer Science degrees to young people. The technology changes so fast, and companies only hire people who are current in the latest.

Surely you jest. There is a difference between a MIS or IT degree and a CS degree. A good CS degree will teach basic fundamentals (things like data structures, object-oriented programming, computation, and algorithms) along with some practical applications. And, believe me, problem solving techniques do not change that quickly.

It’s a lifelong education enterprise, usually on your own time.

It's that way for all fields of study. You need to keep up. Either keep up or the competition will zip right on past you.

[rabscuttle385]

Those who figured, correctly as it turns out, that a one-year drop in IT jobs did not represent an eternal trend, and who majored in Computer Science anyway, are now looking at double-digit job growth in their field, plus a labor shortage caused by the idiots who are now out looking for jobs as basket weavers.

You just perfectly described folks like me and quite a few of my classmates.

[Etoo]

[You just perfectly described folks like me and quite a few of my classmates.]

I didn’t see anything related “Application Lifecycles” in your list.

Are they teaching that at your institution?

IMHO, it’s a critical skill.

[rabscuttle385]

I didn’t see anything related “Application Lifecycles” in your list.

There are courses on software development, object-oriented design (including RUP), and product development and life cycle here in the E-School. The Comm School covers project management for its own students who specialize in IT/IS.

[Etoo]

>>product development and life cycle

That might be it.

App cycle management is a disciplined process that requires coordination and teamwork. It’s what ensures the correct lights come back on, so to speak, after a system upgrade.

Are they teaching you how to gather requirements and generate specifications?

What about QA?

Just curious. Most of the CS grads I’ve encountered are weak in those areas. Doesn’t appear to be a focus in CS programs.

[rabscuttle385]

Most of the CS grads I’ve encountered are weak in those areas. Doesn’t appear to be a focus in CS programs.

You're right. Hell, even I'm weak in those areas. The problem is that Computer Science is treated as a catch-all degree. Areas like Software Engineering need to be broken off into their own programs. And, it's vitally important for CS and other tech degree students to take on internships during their college years to put what they're learning into practice.

Now, as for requirements, specifications, and the application life cycle: that can be pieced together by taking the product development class along with an object-oriented design slash software engineering class (which includes things like requirements and specification). And even then, you'll need a good internship or two to round things out.

[JamesP81]

I wonder how, ‘off shoring’ and H-1B visas affect this.

Not quite as badly as you'd think, but it does have an effect. There are still certain jobs here in the US for folks like me in this field. There are jobs to be had at small and medium businesses. Large corporations think more in terms of the short term bottom line and are more likely to outsource. And to be completely honest, I prefer the small to medium sized business's work environment.

I know a guy whose company outsourced some of their coding. The code they got back worked, but it was unreadable and poorly written, so maintenance has been an absolute nightmare. That's the problem with outsourced programming. Those guys overseas who have B.S. degrees in Computer Science generally get their degrees with 2 to 3 years of formal education, as opposed to the 4-5 it takes here.

[JamesP81]

Might be of interest to you

[dfwgator]

Most people in IT do not have computer science degrees, and in reality, a more solid business education would serve IT people better.

[JamesP81]

That is a fact. The outsourcing of these jobs has reduced the number of Americans in the field....and reduced, via non-market forces, the wages of those Americans still in the field A number of people I know have left the computer-related fields because of the loss of jobs and lowering wages. Eventually, this draws fewer younger Americans into the computer field

While I can't any of that is wrong, the sky hasn't fallen yet. However, the field isn't as good as it used to be. Demand for IT and programming skills used to be so high that you didn't even need to go to college for it if you had the knowledge.

[JamesP81]

The technology changes so fast, and companies only hire people who are current in the latest

I've never had that problem. Most guys who go into computers do it because they like them start with. I'm naturally going to have fairly recent hardware sitting in my home anyway, so I've never had a problem falling behind.

[JamesP81]

You just perfectly described folks like me and quite a few of my classmates.

I hear ya. I graduated in '04. Things were tough for a while, but here in about 2 or 3 years, maybe less, I'll be able to pretty much work for who I want, where I want, for about what I want to make. It's a good time right now to be in the field.

[JenB]

Agreed, software engineering needs to be more of an emphasis these days than the code-monkey skills. My two years of grad school, combined with some good internships/real work experience left me with a good set of skills. I had no trouble getting a job when I moved to Iowa. Making about what my husband, who has seven years on his engineering job, makes, mostly due to my extra education.

While it’s true you have to stay current, there are also jobs for people skilled in the older technologies as long as you’re good. My company employs a ton of C/C++ programmers and so does the big company in town. I mostly work in C# which I love but there’s work for older languages. Heck I know well employed programmers who never made the leap to OO.

[Etoo]

[I'm naturally going to have fairly recent hardware sitting in my home anyway, so I've never had a problem falling behind.]

 

For me, as a developer/programmer, the issue is not hardware.   Fast PC's are cheap.

 

It's not unusual for a developer to be heavily involved in a project for a year or more.  60+ hours per week on that project, using the language(s) and technology specific to that project.

 

Repeat this over several years / projects within the same company, all using the same core technologies.

 

Meanwhile, other companies are adopting the latest greatest - currently C# and .net

 

Your company goes out of business... now you get to play catchup - and meet the job reqs for companies wanting multiple years of OTJ, hands-on experience in the latest greatest.  Fast hardware doesn't fix that.

 

I have decent OOP / OOD skills, formed in Delphi and C++, which make the transition to Java or C# easier.

 

Others aren't so lucky.

 

And then there's the issue of unknowingly Empowering predators and pirates to perpetrate the systematic shennanigans we've seen at Enron; and currently watching unfold in via the sub-prime fiasco.  ehem.   I certainly wouldn't want my kids to be any part of that. 

 

There are more honorable professions.

 

If I had it to do over again, I'd have followed in the footsteps of the big guy on the right in this photo; a giant with a giant heart:

 

RIP, Uncle Tony.  I guess heaven needs heroes too.

[Etoo]

[And even then, you'll need a good internship or two to round things out.]

True.
App Cycle Management, the process of creating, maintaining, and updating large mission critical applications (like, say, the energy trading software at Enron - or the mortgage origination software at large, systematically predatory subprime lenders, for example) is a collaborative effort requiring teamwork - often involving dozens or even hundreds of people.

It's very difficult to teach that in an educational environment.

But, all of this reminds me of another weakness.

Are courses on ethics part of the current CS curriculum?

[HamiltonJay]

I would not recommend Comp Sci to anyone who was not completely personally passionate about it.. our government and major corps are doing everything in their power to destroy this industry.

Go into medical, people will always get sick.

[american colleen]

But the large scale software systems were engineered by those who started out as 'low level' programmers --- or at the very least, they understand the nuts and bolts and have done it on some level in their past.

My concern is that when all the 'low level' programming and tech support is outsourced to other countries, how do you climb the IT knowledge ladder? All of the finest IT people I know started at the 'bottom'. There's gonna be a lot of lost knowledge and understanding at some point.

The currently outsourced 'low level' IT people will be at a distinct advantage when the 'high level' jobs need staffing.

The IT Industry in the US is in trouble in the future.

[mysterio]

And let me guess : the only solution is to H1B in more cheap labor! Whoopitydoo!