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Iraqi Army to Ditch AK-47s for M-16s
Military.com ^ | February 27, 2008 | Christian Lowe

Posted on 03/06/2008 10:27:33 AM PST by gandalftb

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To: Bosco

Why a 6.8? Just curious.


51 posted on 03/06/2008 11:18:47 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Some think McCain should pick his No 2 now. I thought the nominee was No 2. And that No 1s me off!)
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To: gandalftb

One question: Who is paying the bill?


52 posted on 03/06/2008 11:20:51 AM PST by B4Ranch ("In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." FDR)
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To: MD_Willington_1976
M-16 is a shooter's rifle. AK-47 is a sprayer's rifle.

Iraqis going to the M-16/M-4 means that they want an army of shooters, not sprayers.

The problem with the M-16 has been the gas system - direct impingement. It gets hot and dirty and needs regular cleaning. There are ways to mitigate - by using a gas piston system. Bushmaster, Patriot Ordnance and one other company makes drop-in uppers. Stays cool, minimal maintenance.

53 posted on 03/06/2008 11:24:11 AM PST by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: Allegra

Are we selling new or used weapons, I’ve heard we are going to transition to a new weapon for our forces.


54 posted on 03/06/2008 11:25:21 AM PST by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: 76Tiger
The attackers were hit with multiple .223 rounds from the poodle-shooter and kept coming.

And yet, 6 years into a shooting war and countless dead terrorists later, we continue to issue 556mm for individual weapons and light machineguns.

That's one impressive conspiracy, since apparently we've been at war all this time and have failed to notice 556 is ineffective.

55 posted on 03/06/2008 11:26:20 AM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: gandalftb

Hopefully they are BUYING them from us. I wonder why they are doing this, the AK and it’s parts are so ubiquitous on the world market. Cheaper also.


56 posted on 03/06/2008 11:26:46 AM PST by Republic of Texas (Socialism Always Fails)
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To: Squantos; Travis McGee
"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable," said Army Col. Stephen Scott

Colonel Scott made a funny.....

L

57 posted on 03/06/2008 11:29:30 AM PST by Lurker (Pimping my blog: http://lurkerslair-lurker.blogspot.com/)
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To: DoughtyOne
6.8 is currently used by some U.S. Special Forces using the M-16 platform. It's a known quantity but it's an improvement as compared to the 5.56's stopping power.

Bushmaster sells 6.8SPC rifles now.

They also sell gas piston retrofit kits for $400.

58 posted on 03/06/2008 11:29:52 AM PST by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: ibbryn
Dang. They are going to give what little .223 ammo is available to the Iraqis.

My local SportsmansWarehouse had a "friends and family" night about 10 days ago. I was ready to stock up on .223 FMJ. There were no big boxes of 200 or 1000 rds. Just the premium hunting/varmint rounds with 20 per box at fairly high prices. Disappointing. I purchased some powder and primers. There wasn't any good deals on boxes of 55 gr FMJ bullets either.

59 posted on 03/06/2008 11:31:49 AM PST by Myrddin
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To: Vaquero

I see why Bush invaded Iraq. It wasn’t cheap oil it was to sell weapons!!
How long will it be before you see this on DU?


60 posted on 03/06/2008 11:33:06 AM PST by Holicheese (Beware your friendly air defenses!)
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To: 76Tiger

I have a Norinco Sporter and know what you are talking about, I can shoot clean through an oak tree of 36” diameter with it and still pack enough punch to penetrate 3/4” plywood using full metal jacket ammo. Surplus russian ammo with soft lead load would only go just past halfway of tree trunk. AK is a good gun for guerilla type combatant but I would prefer an M14 type weapon for profesional military.


61 posted on 03/06/2008 11:33:31 AM PST by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: Bosco

I guess what I’m most concerned with is making sure an enemy combatant can’t get off another shot or two after being hit. With a 7.62 that isn’t much of a problem. A 6.8 would be a step in the right direction, but I’m not sure why it would be better than going all the way to a 7.62.


62 posted on 03/06/2008 11:34:37 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Some think McCain should pick his No 2 now. I thought the nominee was No 2. And that No 1s me off!)
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To: gandalftb
"These Iraqi soldiers know that this weapon becomes part of their person," he said. "And they also know that they are responsible and accountable for that weapon."

This is my rifle. There are many others like it, but this one is mine ...

63 posted on 03/06/2008 11:35:31 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: WakeUpAndVote

In addition to everything said before (mainly, you can carry a lot more 223 rounds than 762) a study done by the Army infantry department in WW-II found that in an infantry engagement only 25% of infantry men fired their rifles. The exception was the BAR man (one per squad), who fired 90% of the time.

Psychologically, a man with an automatic rifle is more likely to believe that he can affect the outcome of an engagement. If you’re going to be firing on AUTO your ammo will last longer if it’s 223 than 762. The difference in lethality is less important than getting lead on target.


64 posted on 03/06/2008 11:36:36 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (The women got the vote and the Nation got Harding.)
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To: DoughtyOne
Why a 6.8? Just curious.

6.8SPC is designed to fit in an M-16 magazine. Just change the upper to the 6.8SPC barrel. The greater mass of the bullet is less affected by wind and delivers more terminal energy.

65 posted on 03/06/2008 11:36:48 AM PST by Myrddin
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To: DoughtyOne
M-16 platform in 7.62 is doable. Here's a review.
66 posted on 03/06/2008 11:38:15 AM PST by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: Myrddin

Does it have the same diameter only longer?

I do like the idea of more stopping power.


67 posted on 03/06/2008 11:39:49 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Some think McCain should pick his No 2 now. I thought the nominee was No 2. And that No 1s me off!)
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To: Bosco

Very good. Thanks for the link.


68 posted on 03/06/2008 11:41:36 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Some think McCain should pick his No 2 now. I thought the nominee was No 2. And that No 1s me off!)
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To: DoughtyOne

I just did a search @ Bushmaster for a 7.62. They make a sniper rifle (bolt action), but not the AR-10 type.


69 posted on 03/06/2008 11:44:20 AM PST by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: DoughtyOne
Here's a 6.8SPC vs. 7.62 discussion.
70 posted on 03/06/2008 11:48:18 AM PST by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: 76Tiger

But, as I remember, the problem was that the soldiers were using armor-piercing rounds, so the rounds would go right through the Somalis, and not fragment and do internal damage. Although higher-caliber rounds always help. But you’ll have less of them. And it’s true what they say - you can never have too much ammo!


71 posted on 03/06/2008 11:48:32 AM PST by tlj18 (2008 is the Year of the Rat. So say the Chinese (zhong ren).)
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To: Bosco

I have shot both .223 AK & AR... both work...

my AK did not jam, my friends LMT M4 did


72 posted on 03/06/2008 11:51:20 AM PST by MD_Willington_1976
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To: Bosco

Thanks. I appreciate the information related to the 6.8 vs 7.62. These links have helped a lot.


73 posted on 03/06/2008 11:53:02 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Some think McCain should pick his No 2 now. I thought the nominee was No 2. And that No 1s me off!)
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To: MuttTheHoople

My nephew is on his second tour over there and he tells me that nobody carries their weapons wet with anything. They all use dry lube.


74 posted on 03/06/2008 12:05:54 PM PST by SirFishalot
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To: TLI

No kidding. The M16 is a great gun, if you can take care of it...and not leave it outside of the tent in a sandstorm.


75 posted on 03/06/2008 12:09:54 PM PST by July 4th
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To: doorgunner69

With some Blackhawk gear, you could carry more than 6 magazines of 7.62.

=)


76 posted on 03/06/2008 12:10:55 PM PST by wastedyears (Iron Maiden in two weeks' time.)
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To: Bosco

Heckler and Koch make the 416.


77 posted on 03/06/2008 12:15:26 PM PST by wastedyears (Iron Maiden in two weeks' time.)
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To: DoughtyOne
The 6.8SPC is essentially a .277 caliber bullet with a 115 gr weight. The 5.56 is .224 caliber 69 gr (green tip). See the article here for a review of characteristics.
78 posted on 03/06/2008 12:17:09 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: gandalftb
"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable"

People like this are one of the reasons we are still fighting in Iraq and that ammo prices are going through the roof.

If we were fighting poodles in a sterile Clean Room the M-16 would be the ticket.

Fighting Jihadis in the real world the M-16 and the .223 round are at a disadvantage - it just doesn't have the stopping power of the AK and is too susceptible to malfunction from a dirty environmenmt.

This poodle shooter and round got a lot of our guys killed in Nam and I have hated it ever since.

79 posted on 03/06/2008 12:18:16 PM PST by Iron Munro (Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.)
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To: WakeUpAndVote

My Son in Law has a M-16 in .308, that’s a real mean little motor scooter. .


80 posted on 03/06/2008 12:33:57 PM PST by oyez (Justa' another high minded lowlife.)
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To: Myrddin

Are the mags the same? Or just similar?

I haven’t paid close attention. What do they hold? 25 in a 30, or something like that?


81 posted on 03/06/2008 12:39:50 PM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: SirFishalot; MuttTheHoople

>>My nephew is on his second tour over there and he tells me that nobody carries their weapons wet with anything. They all use dry lube.

Are they using Militec-1? Or something else?

http://www.militec1.com/


82 posted on 03/06/2008 12:42:12 PM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: 76Tiger

It does raise a mass production question, though. I imagine it would be simpler to retool between x39 and x51, than with 5.56. I also suspect that the tolerances for 5.56 are very tight compared to 7.62.


83 posted on 03/06/2008 12:50:19 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Wouldn’t you have to get China on board to not produce the ammo?


84 posted on 03/06/2008 12:54:30 PM PST by freedomlover (Make sure you're in love - before you move in the heavy stuff)
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To: FreedomPoster
The mags are unique for the 6.8SPC. Everything you ever wanted to know is right here
85 posted on 03/06/2008 12:59:40 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: xsrdx

Agreed the AK-47 is not the best choice for a well trained army it;is however an utterly reliable weapon if given even the most rudimentary of care, ie cleaning/oiling stored in a clean dry place .

If western civilization has a melt down the rifle I would first grad would one of the many AK variants.


86 posted on 03/06/2008 1:04:08 PM PST by Nebr FAL owner (.308 reach out & thump someone .50 cal.Browning Machine gun reach out & crush someone)
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To: gandalftb

Give the excess AK-47 rifles to the Iranian opposition.


87 posted on 03/06/2008 1:09:22 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: WakeUpAndVote

They do. It is called the AR-10.


88 posted on 03/06/2008 1:09:59 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: brazzaville
I don't suppose we citizens could be offered good prices on those old AKs.

I'd be satisfied if this would bring 7.62x39 prices down from LEO into the breathable atmosphere again.

89 posted on 03/06/2008 1:15:07 PM PST by LTCJ (God Save the Constitution)
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To: Myrddin
Try ammoman.com. He's got plenty of 55 gr. FMJ.

I've done business with him and have no complaints.

L

90 posted on 03/06/2008 1:17:31 PM PST by Lurker (Pimping my blog: http://lurkerslair-lurker.blogspot.com/)
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To: Lurker

It’s a lot of things, but “more durable?”


91 posted on 03/06/2008 1:25:04 PM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee
Really.

He could have said "more accurate", "technologically superior", "more adaptable", or even "just f'ing cooler looking".

But more durable? Give me a break. There isn't a weapon on the planet more durable than the Automat Kalashnikov Model of 1947.

Period.

L

92 posted on 03/06/2008 1:28:07 PM PST by Lurker (Pimping my blog: http://lurkerslair-lurker.blogspot.com/)
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To: satan
How much is this going to cost us the taxpayers?

exactly, we pay out the ass for them and as citizens we cant even have em. all the while the same AKs that are a few bucks in the mid east arent available here either...

93 posted on 03/06/2008 1:29:46 PM PST by Gilbo_3 (Choose Liberty over slavery... the gulag awaits ANY compromise with evil...LiveFReeOr Die...)
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To: Travis McGee
It’s a lot of things, but “more durable?”

I'm thinking COL Scott might not be a small arms specialist.

Just a guess.

Not much on earth that shoots bullets is more durable than the AK.

94 posted on 03/06/2008 1:30:24 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: WakeUpAndVote

I have a Colt AR in 7.62x39.


95 posted on 03/06/2008 1:30:45 PM PST by mcshot (Missing my grade school desk which protected from nuclear blasts.)
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To: Lurker
There isn't a weapon on the planet more durable than the Automat Kalashnikov Model of 1947.

+1

96 posted on 03/06/2008 1:32:50 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: Lurker
Thanks. It's frustrating to have to go with online orders. The days of local shops being reasonably stocked seems to be over.
97 posted on 03/06/2008 1:59:13 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: gandalftb
For us Americans, this means everything related to AR-15s, M16s and 5.56 ammo is going to become scarce and skyrocket in price.
98 posted on 03/06/2008 2:10:19 PM PST by Nachoman (My guns and my ammo, they comfort me.)
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To: Myrddin
I've done business with ammoman on more than once. While it's a bit of a hassle to receive the goods as UPS requires an adult signature (but they'll take mine...go figure) all of his prices are quoted to your door.

So you know up front what the stuff is going to cost you.

I can recommend him to you without hesitation.

Good luck.

L

99 posted on 03/06/2008 2:12:35 PM PST by Lurker (Pimping my blog: http://lurkerslair-lurker.blogspot.com/)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

You make a great point. All of our enemies use AK’s, very few friendlies do, restrict the ammo and you raise the price and reduce the availability.


100 posted on 03/06/2008 2:23:27 PM PST by gandalftb (Ruthless action may be only clarity...quickly, awake (Capt. Willard, Apocalypse Now))
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