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In Poker, Psychologists Place Bets On Skill
Science Daily ^ | 3-25-2008 | Case Western Reserve University

Posted on 03/25/2008 10:55:04 AM PDT by blam

In Poker, Psychologists Place Bets On Skill

Is it luck of the draw in poker? No, says Michael DeDonno, a doctoral student from Case Western Reserve University. (Credit: Image courtesy of Case Western Reserve University)

ScienceDaily (Mar. 25, 2008) — Is it luck of the draw in poker? No, says Michael DeDonno, a doctoral student from Case Western Reserve University. He suggests putting your bets on skills over luck when playing the card game.

DeDonno's findings from two poker-related studies with college students have implications for the gaming industry, and possibly even legal cases that challenge the theory of luck over skills. According to DeDonno, the person who takes home the winnings is likely to pay higher taxes when money is considered earned by luck.

His article, "Poker is a Skill," written with Douglas Detterman, Case Western Reserve psychologist, caught the attention of the journal, Gaming Law Review, which has been examining this luck-skill debate and recently published psychologists' findings.

"This article provides empirical evidence that it is skill and not luck," concluded DeDonno from his two studies.

In the first study, DeDonno had 41 college students play eight games, totaling 200 hands, of Turbo Texas Hold'em, a computerized simulation of 10-player Hold'em poker. The game consists of being dealt two cards in the first round. The player must decide whether to play or quit based on the hand. If the person decides to play, then three cards are dealt for the community pot. Again, the player has to decide whether to play or stop. The player must also consider the betting patterns of the other players in making a decision in moving to the next round. If continuing, then the player sees another card and has to decide again to bet or lay down the cards. This is repeated until there are five cards on the table.

Overall most of the students had little experience playing poker, said DeDonno.

Half of the students in the first group were given charts that ranked the two-card combinations from best to the worst and also learned that professional poker players typically play about 15 percent of the hands dealt them. The other group was given background on the history of poker with no strategies.

He found that students given some strategies to make decisions did better than those without the strategies.

When starting the study, almost two-thirds of the students (64 percent) felt that winning at poker was 50 percent luck.

"If it had been pure luck in winning, then the strategies would not have made a difference for the two groups," said DeDonno.

To statistically verify the results from the first study, he conducted a second study, but had students play 720 hands. Again the group was divided into those provided with strategies and those with just a history of playing poker. While all students improved their playing with practice over the large number of hands, the group given strategies continued to do better than those without the added information.

He also found that students reduced the average number of hands played at the beginning (27) to 15 hands after given strategies, which improved their games and validated that "fewer hands does result in improved performance."

DeDonno's research evolved from his interest in playing poker. He wanted to determine if there was a correlation between intelligence and the ability to play the game. But the focus shifted to the luck-skill issue.

According to DeDonno, using poker strategies has some real life applications in such areas as investments and buying a home where partial information is available. He also discovered that the poker simulation has applications in psychological testing for decision making and risk taking.

But in DeDonno's final analysis, skill wins out in playing poker.

Adapted from materials provided by Case Western Reserve University.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bets; gambling; luck; poker; psychology

1 posted on 03/25/2008 10:55:06 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Jeez, ya think?


2 posted on 03/25/2008 10:59:54 AM PDT by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorist savages - In Honor of Standing Wolf)
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To: blam

“He found that students given some strategies to make decisions did better than those without the strategies.”

How can I say “DUH” louder on-line?

Whatever this study cost, I bet you’d find out the same thing for less money sitting at a low-limit poker table.


3 posted on 03/25/2008 11:00:04 AM PDT by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: blam

And we spent taxpayer funding to learn this? Wouldn’t it have been cheaper for him to go to Las Vegas and get his clock cleaned by some pros and skilled amateurs and not have to waste the time and money of a Federally Funded University?

Or, he could have just read a poker book to find this out and taken their word for it since most professional players have played over 1,000,000 hands of Texas Hold ‘Em and not just 100 or 720.


4 posted on 03/25/2008 11:00:17 AM PDT by bpjam (Drill For Oil or Lose Your Job!! Vote Nov 3, 2008)
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To: blam

Heck, I don’t even look at my cards. I just sit on what I’m dealt, throw some chips in the pot and trust to luck!


5 posted on 03/25/2008 11:03:49 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: ClearCase_guy
Heck, I don’t even look at my cards. I just sit on what I’m dealt, throw some chips in the pot and trust to luck!

Saturday night, my house, don't forget your wallet.

6 posted on 03/25/2008 11:07:54 AM PDT by OSHA (<---Typical white person.)
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To: bpjam

I believe he was making a point about winnings being taxed more based on the game being considered luck. Like Keno

“According to DeDonno, the person who takes home the winnings is likely to pay higher taxes when money is considered earned by luck.”


7 posted on 03/25/2008 11:15:00 AM PDT by zackzilla
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To: blam

Tell that to the jackasses in Congress.


8 posted on 03/25/2008 11:16:19 AM PDT by FReepaholic (Me no bottom man. Me top man.)
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To: swain_forkbeard

Wow - just wow. Somebody sponsored research to see if poker is a game of skill?? And then some news organization thought that the conclusion merited an article?? Oh man! Hope the sponsor and reporter next report to an online table where I’m playing.


9 posted on 03/25/2008 11:23:29 AM PDT by rockvillem
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To: blam
Poker is unquestionably (though some will) a game of skill and not luck. Over the long term.

Sure, a monkey could be a top poker pro over a short period of a few hands. But over time, the monkey will lose over and over and over.

10 posted on 03/25/2008 11:24:59 AM PDT by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: frogjerk; CougarGA7

ping


11 posted on 03/25/2008 11:26:15 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim (Play that Funky Music Typical White Boy!)
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To: blam
Over the short run, luck counts more than skill.

Over the long run, skill counts more than luck.

12 posted on 03/25/2008 11:28:32 AM PDT by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: CSM; jmc813; Phantom Lord; doubled; Graycliff; Tallguy; Lexington Green; ThinkDifferent; ...

Poker Ping!

Thanks goes out to Tijeras_Slim for the Heads-up.

13 posted on 03/25/2008 11:30:01 AM PDT by frogjerk (Hope is a theological virtue, not a campaign promise)
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To: OSHA

[Saturday night, my house, don’t forget your wallet.]

LOL! You beat me to it.


14 posted on 03/25/2008 11:45:03 AM PDT by Graycliff (Long haired freaky people, need not apply.)
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To: blam

Pairs, paint and position.


15 posted on 03/25/2008 11:45:37 AM PDT by 38special (I mean come on.)
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To: swain_forkbeard

There are few things that are so unpardonably neglected in our country as poker. The upper class knows very little about it. Now and then you find ambassadors who have sort of a general knowledge of the game, but the ignorance of the people is fearful. Why, I have known clergymen, good men, kind-hearted, liberal, sincere, and all that, who did not know the meaning of a “flush.” It is enough to make one ashamed of one’s species.
- quoted in A Bibliography of Mark Twain, Merle Johnson


16 posted on 03/25/2008 12:01:41 PM PDT by Scarlet Pimpernel
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To: blam

For me, playing poker is not really gambling. It was paying for lessons. ;~((


17 posted on 03/25/2008 12:01:44 PM PDT by Ditto (Global Warming: The 21st Century's Snake Oil)
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To: Phantom Lord
over time, the monkey will lose over and over and over.

I resemble that remark.

18 posted on 03/25/2008 12:14:40 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: blam
Mark Twain's story about poker
19 posted on 03/25/2008 12:50:51 PM PDT by SouthWall (The new law shall If you are in this country illegally, you will never be eligible for citizenship.)
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To: Scarlet Pimpernel

When I play, which is not frequent and for low blinds only, some of the players do not know the meaning of a J-8 unsuited, apparently.


20 posted on 03/25/2008 12:52:54 PM PDT by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: frogjerk

Which makes Jamie Gold the exception and not the rule.


21 posted on 03/25/2008 1:09:20 PM PDT by GOP_Raider ("Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torments of man" -Nietzsche)
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To: GOP_Raider
Which makes Jamie Gold the exception and not the rule.

LOL, true. When a tournament has thousands and thousands of people in it, there's no doubt you need a huge amount of luck to go along with some solid skills in order to win the whole shebang, even at two hours per level.

22 posted on 03/25/2008 1:40:09 PM PDT by jpl ("Don't tell me words don't matter." - Barack Obama, via Deval Patrick)
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To: blam

Poker might be a game of skill but psychology is not a science by any stretch of the imagination.


23 posted on 03/25/2008 1:43:20 PM PDT by RightWhale (Clam down! avoid ataque de nervosa)
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To: Scarlet Pimpernel

You can never go wrong with me, when you quote Mark Twain. Ambrose Bierce as well, is always a worthy quote.


24 posted on 03/25/2008 1:43:24 PM PDT by Biblebelter (Oprah had better judgment that Barry, she left Barry's Uncle Jeremiah while the getting was good.)
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To: blam

I have watched the “World Series of Poker” on occasion and am amazed at how often Daniel Negreanu, correctly guesses the cards in an opponents hand by the way they bet after being dealt only two cards.


25 posted on 03/25/2008 1:49:10 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: Phantom Lord

OTOH, the best poker player in a room isn’t always the one who walks away with the winnings at the end of the night. They need a little luck, too - or to put it another way, they need to play the statistical probabilities and not come out on the wrong end of them too often, which does sometimes happen.


26 posted on 03/25/2008 1:53:32 PM PDT by -YYZ- (Strong like bull, smart like ox.)
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To: jpl

Gold was also skirting the rules as well-—doing things like exposing hole cards while a hand was in progress, talking about what he had while a player was making a decision, he’s very lucky another player didn’t call him out on any of his antics or else he probably isn’t a multi-millionaire right now.

His performances on NBC’s late night show “Poker After Dark” exposes just how mediocre of a no limit player Gold really is.


27 posted on 03/25/2008 1:54:45 PM PDT by GOP_Raider ("Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torments of man" -Nietzsche)
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To: GOP_Raider
Exposing of a hole card is a possible violation of the rules. A player could call the floor over for a ruling and request the players hand be declared dead.

It is in no way a violation of the rules to tell your opponent what you have.

28 posted on 03/25/2008 1:56:55 PM PDT by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: zackzilla

I think it was somebody else making that statment....


29 posted on 03/25/2008 2:56:18 PM PDT by bpjam (Drill For Oil or Lose Your Job!! Vote Nov 3, 2008)
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To: Phantom Lord

“Exposing of a hole card is a possible violation of the rules. A player could call the floor over for a ruling and request the players hand be declared dead.”

ACCIDENTLY exposing a hole card is not a violation of the rules. The card that is exposed to one player, is exposed (shown) to all the players, and the hand continues.

“It is in no way a violation of the rules to tell your opponent what you have.”

It is considered bad poker etiquette to discuss your hand while the hand is being played. OTOH, it is considered good playing to lie about what you have in your hand while playing. Go figure.

....Bob


30 posted on 03/25/2008 3:47:30 PM PDT by Lokibob (Some people are like slinkys. Useless, but if you throw them down the stairs, you smile.)
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To: blam
Poker players get better results using skill than luck

Psycholgist's deductions no better than chance

31 posted on 03/25/2008 3:52:52 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Here to Help)
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To: Phantom Lord
It is in no way a violation of the rules to tell your opponent what you have.

Correct. It's not a rule violation--although when I was down in Reno for the World Poker Tour events in which I played players were strongly discouraged from doing what Gold was doing in the Main Event of the WSOP last year--but it's more of an annoyance than a rule violation. Thanks for catching that for me.

32 posted on 03/25/2008 4:27:36 PM PDT by GOP_Raider ("Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torments of man" -Nietzsche)
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To: blam

computer poker and “real” poker are different.. I think. In real poker, you play the other players... in computer poker, you play the cards...


33 posted on 03/25/2008 5:45:31 PM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck....... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.,)
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To: -YYZ-

The thing is, “in the long run” can sometimes be a very long time.


34 posted on 03/25/2008 9:17:13 PM PDT by Hugin (Mecca delenda est!)
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