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American sniper hung out to dry (DISGRACE !!)
NY Daily News ^ | 03/30/2008 | MARCIA DREZON-TEPLER

Posted on 03/30/2008 4:46:45 PM PDT by Kid Shelleen

On a mountain ridge in Afghanistan in June 2005, on a mission to capture or kill a Taliban commander, the four Navy SEALs were discussing ... the American media. Three shepherds, including a 14-year-old, had crossed their path, and the SEALs had to decide what to do: kill them, or let them go and risk exposure to Taliban forces.

On elevated ground near Iskandariyah, Iraq, two years later, American snipers faced the same dilemma: kill or release two civilians who had discovered their hideout, Genei Nesir Khudair al-Janabi and his 17-year-old son, Mustafa.

(Excerpt) Read more at nydailynews.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: afghanistan; oef; snipers; specialforces

1 posted on 03/30/2008 4:46:46 PM PDT by Kid Shelleen
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To: Kid Shelleen

So the military is winning the war in SPITE of their leadership, not because of it.


2 posted on 03/30/2008 4:52:12 PM PDT by Republic of Texas (Socialism Always Fails)
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To: Kid Shelleen
Afghan Sniper
3 posted on 03/30/2008 4:58:21 PM PDT by South40 (Amnesty is a slap in the face to the USBP!)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Disgraceful.


4 posted on 03/30/2008 4:58:38 PM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghill mi do dhuine. Fg am bealach.)
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To: Kid Shelleen
"The strictly correct military decision would ... be to kill them ... because we could not know their intentions," Luttrell writes in his book. But he feared "the liberal media ... and the prospect of many, many years in a U.S. civilian jail alongside murderers and rapists."

Remember this, the next time you just have to show your conservative bona fides by wishing prison rape on anyone incarcerated.

5 posted on 03/30/2008 4:59:10 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

the leadership in our own military proves that not all of us, not even all of those in uniform, want us to win the war against terrorism.

When a marine has to think about the NYT editorial section in between calculating wind speeds and distance for his partner who is preparing a shot, it should be clear that WE here in the mainland are the ones putting our marines in danger more than the Taliban ever could.


6 posted on 03/30/2008 5:05:50 PM PDT by bpjam (Drill For Oil or Lose Your Job!! Vote Nov 3, 2008)
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To: Kid Shelleen

You can’t fight a PC war and expect to win.

Liberalism hamstrings our military, then liberals complain that their hamstrung military is in a “quagmire” and therefore must withdraw. It’s a crazy, vicious cycle, and it ultimately spells our doom. Ugly decisions such as what Hensley made, instructing Vela to kill the unarmed father of a boy the soldiers had just released, are unfortunate. But they are many times necessary.

We MUST not fight a PC war.


7 posted on 03/30/2008 5:05:59 PM PDT by RepublitarianRoger2
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To: Kid Shelleen
We cannot, repeat cannot fight an antiseptic war with restrictions on ruthlessness and expect favorable results and minimization of casualties. The people putting in place these idiotic conditions have never looked at the evil in a foe's soul as he trained his weapon on your upper torso. When it comes to combat, never give your enemy an even chance, never mind a substantial leg up.
Where the hell is our common sense as a people?
8 posted on 03/30/2008 5:14:00 PM PDT by AlphaOneAlpha
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To: Kid Shelleen

Par-don.


9 posted on 03/30/2008 5:16:07 PM PDT by bolobaby
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To: Mr Ramsbotham
Our military brass makes me sick. They are willing to sacrifice the lives of 19 Americans so two Taliban sympathizers could go on killing Americans. American soldiers shouldn't be charged with murder unless there is irrefutable evidence that one occurred. This doesn't include a soldier shooting an unarmed civilian who poses a threat to his life. There's no way this doesn't hurt morale and cause good men to leave the military.
10 posted on 03/30/2008 5:18:02 PM PDT by peeps36 (OUTLAWED WORDS--INSURGENT,GLOBAL WARMING,UNDOCUMENTED WORKER,PALESTINIAN,TERMINATED PREGNANCY)
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To: bolobaby

It would go a long way for GWB if he did it, or better yet “bend to the pressure” of McCain asking him to do it? hint, hint to McCain lurkers.


11 posted on 03/30/2008 5:19:36 PM PDT by IllumiNaughtyByNature (Senator McCain, what did GWB promise you back in 2000? And you believed him? BWAHAAAAA!)
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To: Kid Shelleen

This is not the way to fight a war. Sometimes there is collarteral damage, no way around it.


12 posted on 03/30/2008 5:24:48 PM PDT by Former Proud Canadian (How do I change my screen name after Harper's election?)
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To: bpjam

Meanwhile the media used reporters’ images who were imbedded with the “insurgents”’ snipers.

The media has a horse in this race and it isn’t our country they are rooting for.


13 posted on 03/30/2008 5:25:21 PM PDT by weegee (Famous moments in history: March 18th, 2008 “I have a bridge (to sell you)...” - Barack H. Oba)
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To: Kid Shelleen

May God above damn the traitors alive and well in the United States Media. May God Damn them all.


14 posted on 03/30/2008 5:25:30 PM PDT by navymom1 (I support the troops and their mission.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Damned arm chair generals would rather see 20 of their own men die than kill one or two enemy sympathizers.


15 posted on 03/30/2008 5:36:10 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: Republic of Texas
So the military is winning the war in SPITE of their leadership, not because of it.

YES, it seems we have learned nothing from VietNam.

16 posted on 03/30/2008 5:41:42 PM PDT by deuteronlmy232
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To: bpjam
When a marine has to think about the NYT editorial section in between calculating wind speeds and distance for his partner who is preparing a shot, it should be clear that WE here in the mainland are the ones putting our marines in danger more than the Taliban ever could.

What would you suggest we do? The Democrats and Republicans have had an iron grip on our nation for 150 years, look what they have given us for choices this year.

17 posted on 03/30/2008 5:47:44 PM PDT by deuteronlmy232 (All politicians are whores, soros is the high bidder, our nation is in trouble.)
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To: Kid Shelleen; bigheadfred; fighting for a ranger; xzins; 4woodenboats; jazusamo; Gene Eric; ...
New York Daily News on the Evan Vela case!
18 posted on 03/30/2008 5:48:51 PM PDT by RedRover (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Is this soldier's conviction yet another example of the 'shadow justice' system put in place to placate the DBM?

Any investigation into Haditha should include this case as well.

19 posted on 03/30/2008 6:01:25 PM PDT by Cohee
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To: RedRover; Kid Shelleen
"I'd have killed them," he said, referring to the shepherds in Afghanistan. He told me the code is "like the Ten Commandments, short and sweet and subject to interpretation."

Cmndr. Richard Marcinko is right, IMO.

Evan Vela made a wrenching but necessary decision. He is not a murderer.

Amen! and he is still alive, but no charges should have been filed.

20 posted on 03/30/2008 6:06:30 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: navymom1
May God above damn the traitors alive and well in the United States Media. May God Damn them all.

While I fully support that sentiment, that is not the case for Sgt. Vela. The poorly written article is short on facts and you'd think it was about Luttrell since there's more info on his circumstances than on Vela. That said, this case is 1000 times WORSE. I'd rewrite your line as:

May God above damn the traitors alive and well in the United States Military Command Structure. May God Damn them all.
Consider ... Sgt. Vela obeyed an order from his team leader. Even if arguendo we assume it was an unlawful order and a complete violation of the rules of engagement, the punishment should have been worse on the giver of the order. We do not have much info from Vela's court marshal, but I'd think the defense had to weigh heavily on Vela's reliance upon 1) the military immediacy of the situation and 2) following an order in a combat situation.

It would seem that Sgt. Vela is guilty of not overriding his team leader and not committing mutiny under fire (hey, if Hillary was taking rounds, then these guys were being strafed). I hope he had a competent defense attorney but that seems doubtful given the outcome.

No, I say 1000 times worse because each and every soldier, sailor, airman, and marine now puts themselves in Sgt. Vela's position and will hesitate when given the order to shoot. It isn't the press they're worried about, it's the REMFs. And that's infinitely worse. This could undermine everything!

21 posted on 03/30/2008 6:08:08 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Who Would Montgomery Brewster Choose?)
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To: SandRat

what say you? did I get it right? what’s the scoop on this?


22 posted on 03/30/2008 6:10:12 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Who Would Montgomery Brewster Choose?)
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To: NonValueAdded

It’s not one that I’ve been privy to. I know what the code says, but just on the story content I question the combat awareness of the Maj. quaoted in the article.


23 posted on 03/30/2008 6:22:53 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country. What else needs to be said?)
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To: RedRover; Kid Shelleen
From the article,

Our military should have told the Iraqi government "that sometimes there are hard choices that have to be made" and that civilians will sometimes be killed, Vela's attorney, James Culp, told me.

Instead, Iraq's Human Rights Minister attended the trial and made it clear what she expected. From Times:

Iraq's Minister of Human Rights, Wijdan Mikhail Salim, however, does not see the case as either a justified kill or a horrific accident by an exhaustion-impaired soldier. She was attending today's proceedings, she told TIME, because, "I want to be sure that any American soldier who wrongs an Iraqi will go on trial. [Vela] killed an Iraqi man, an unarmed man. He must be punished."
24 posted on 03/30/2008 6:33:34 PM PDT by Girlene
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To: bigheadfred; lilycicero; fighting for a ranger; All

25 posted on 03/30/2008 6:40:00 PM PDT by RedRover (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: Kid Shelleen

How much more of this before our army fights with less than a 100% effort?


26 posted on 03/30/2008 6:43:02 PM PDT by purpleraine
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To: Kid Shelleen

There are two missions.

In the first, a sniper team was deployed to a remote location, with a rapid reaction force to be deployed by helicopter to extracate them or reinforce them as might become necessary, possibly to exploit a developing situation.

This unit did the right thing to let the herdsmen move along. But, upon the arrival a hundred armed insurgents, the plan to deploy the rapid reaction force broke down when their helicopter was shot down, leading to the deaths of something like twenty of our guys.

Hopefully, our commanders - up to and including the President - learn from experiences like this, so as to provide the back-up needed by small, remotely-deployed units, so they maintain their discipline when put to the test.

Possibly, it is a rare thing for a helicopter to be shot down, and you don’t need to accompany troop carrying helicopters with escort helicopters to suppress ground forces, and this was just a very unfortunate instance. Perhaps you have to be able to call in fire support from ground-based artillery, or have high flyers in the air 24/7 that you can call in. Perhaps missile-carrying drones can do the job.

In the second instance, the commander of the small unit thought to take matters into his own hands, instead of following the rules of engagement, and killed/murdered a passerby.

Loyalty is a two-way street. Our people have to be loyal to us, maintianing their discipline, and we have to be loyal to them, backing them up as we have to. When this two-way street breaks down, it is a sure sign we are stetched too thin.


27 posted on 03/30/2008 7:03:39 PM PDT by Redmen4ever
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To: Kid Shelleen

Staff Sergeant Hensley was the man to pull the trigger, not order someone else to do so.


28 posted on 03/30/2008 7:10:55 PM PDT by em2vn
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To: Redmen4ever

I agree with you. My brother Raymond GIrouard had to make a loyal decision. He did what he thought was best at the time and followed orders. He is also serving ten years with Evan at Ft.Leavenworth.


29 posted on 03/30/2008 7:13:49 PM PDT by fighting for a ranger (Rangers lead the way!!)
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To: RedRover; bigheadfred; fighting for a ranger

The USDB has a nice collection of Ranger heroes and they aren’t going to keep them very long.


30 posted on 03/30/2008 7:27:16 PM PDT by lilycicero (God Bless Them.)
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To: fighting for a ranger

A person who makes a bad decision while trying to do a great good is not evil. We should all be happy to see these men restored to their families and communities, in full brotherhood and with their honor and privileges of citizenship restored, when they have served their sentences or before, if commutation or some form of early release becomes possible.


31 posted on 03/30/2008 7:35:05 PM PDT by Redmen4ever
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To: lilycicero; fighting for a ranger

I’m praying Ray and Evan are both back with their families very soon. Evan has some kids to help raise and Ray’s got some writing to do.


32 posted on 03/30/2008 7:36:27 PM PDT by RedRover (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: RedRover; fighting for a ranger

Ray has a mini me Ranger to catch up with as well.


33 posted on 03/30/2008 7:41:57 PM PDT by lilycicero ((Is writing code for "Party"?))
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To: RedRover

Yes that is true I think Ray has been at the DB way to long. We need our Ranger back home.


34 posted on 03/30/2008 7:43:44 PM PDT by fighting for a ranger (Rangers lead the way!!)
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To: 1stbn27; 2111USMC; 2nd Bn, 11th Mar; 68 grunt; A.A. Cunningham; ASOC; AirForceBrat23; Ajnin; ...

New report on the Evan Vela prosecution.

The Pendleton 8 and Vela, etc., kind of get lost in Haditha....

but not forgotten.


35 posted on 03/30/2008 7:44:07 PM PDT by freema (Proud Marine Niece, Daughter, Wife, Friend, Sister, Cousin, Mom and FRiend)
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To: bigheadfred; RaceBannon

Army Staff Sergeant Nominated for Medal of Honor used a Gerber knife to silence an insurgent.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1994010/posts


36 posted on 03/30/2008 7:46:35 PM PDT by freema (Proud Marine Niece, Daughter, Wife, Friend, Sister, Cousin, Mom and FRiend)
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To: Redmen4ever

Exactly. They aren’t going to be repeat offenders.


37 posted on 03/30/2008 7:49:27 PM PDT by lilycicero
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To: Redmen4ever
In the second instance, the commander of the small unit thought to take matters into his own hands, instead of following the rules of engagement, and killed/murdered a passerby.

First off, they (Hensley,Vela) were following their ROE. They were given the green light to kill anyone who they felt posed a threat.

Secondly, this supposed "passerby", a "taxi" driver, was also purportedly in that area to turn on a pump on that didn't exist. He was never positively identified as the person they said he was, and intel reported, in the weeks following his killing, insurgent activity dropped by 90% in that area. In fact, when investigators showed area residents his photograph, no one could identify him.

Third, it was testified that Vela was so sleep deprived he was running on autopilot, they all were. Check out the Hannity story on DefendOurTroops.

And for all this, you only pay the unbelievably low price of TEN YEARS IN LEAVENWORTH. But wait there's more...

38 posted on 03/30/2008 8:06:34 PM PDT by bigheadfred (freeevanvela.com)
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To: bigheadfred; Girlene; RaceBannon; Semper Fi Mom; darrylsharratt
To further clarify the compare and contrast the Army MOH situation, Vela and Luttrell:

President Bush pinned a Navy Cross on Luttrell in July 2006. Vela was court-martialed. Last month, a military panel found him guilty of murder without premeditation; he has begun serving a 10-year prison sentence.

Americans should be deeply disturbed by the contrast. If Luttrell and his fellow SEALs had done what Vela did, they all probably would be alive today. The media and our military, with the latter quick to charge murder, are impeding the judgment, mission and survival of our fighters.

One of Vela's court-martial prosecutors, Maj. Charles Khufahl, argued, "It was murder, plain and simple. United States soldiers do not kill unarmed, detained individuals." But is it so simple?

The Uniform Code of Military Justice prohibits killing an unarmed civilian detainee - unless he represents an imminent threat. But how can we expect a soldier to determine, in a split second, what represents such a threat? Does a civilian who, if released, might bring back armed fighters qualify?

There are three MOH recipients and two MOH nominees. Only one is alive. The one above who used a Gerber knife to silence his captive.

Evan Vela is alive. The Haditha Marines are alive. The Pendleton 8 are alive. Nazario is alive. Had these men operated as their persecutors demand they should, the odds they would be alive are slim to none.

39 posted on 03/30/2008 8:13:57 PM PDT by freema (Proud Marine Niece, Daughter, Wife, Friend, Sister, Cousin, Mom and FRiend)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Our military leadership apparently doesn’t want to win the war (and I cannot help but wonder about the current administration as well). The WOT is a joke if we are tying our soldiers hands. This is no different than our national sovereignty that is being given away by our lack of border enforcement.


40 posted on 03/30/2008 8:54:20 PM PDT by TheBattman (LORD God, please give us a Christian Patriot with a backbone for President in 08, Amen.)
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To: Kid Shelleen
A great example of this is the movie "Bravo Two Zero". It's a true story of a British Special Forces unit who were discovered by a shepherd boy while on a covert mission deep in enemy territory during the first gulf war. Only three of the 8 survived. On made it to the border on foot, the other two were captured and tortured.

After they were ratted on by the boy, they fought a running battle with the Iraqis in which they killed hundreds of men. Their mission was to destroy some remote communications equipment that would not have even involved any casualties.

So if they would have killed the kid, they would have saved their own lives, and many of enemy lives as well.

41 posted on 03/30/2008 10:33:48 PM PDT by Jotmo (I Had a Bad Experience With the CIA and Now I'm Gonna Show You My Feminine Side - Swirling Eddies)
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To: Girlene

Well, they made a liar out of me today...another MOH awarded.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1994593/posts


42 posted on 03/31/2008 4:07:04 PM PDT by freema (Proud Marine Niece, Daughter, Wife, Friend, Sister, Cousin, Mom and FRiend)
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