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Red Baron film celebrates German war hero
Telegraph,co.uk ^ | 01/04/2008 | Harry de Quetteville

Posted on 04/01/2008 3:16:51 PM PDT by wolf78

After decades of war-related silence and shame, Germany proudly celebrated a military hero last night, rolling out the red carpet for "Red" Baron von Richthofen.

The new attitude was on display as stars and celebrities, including British actor Joseph Fiennes, were due to gather for the Berlin premiere of a new film about the Baron.

It is set to mark a new departure for German war films, which usually reflect on the extremism, suffering and even lunacy of the Nazi era ­ if they get made at all.

The Red Baron in contrast, portrays a brilliant and honourable military figure whose life and early death in combat Germans can celebrate without blush.

The film, which at £14 million is one of Germany's most expensive productions, stars Matthias Schweighoefer as the renowned pilot thought to have shot down about 80 Allied airmen in World War One.

It is based on a biography of the pilot published last year, which opens with him engaged in a dogfight only to pull out when he sees his adversary's gun jammed.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: germany; redbaron; richthofen; vonrichthofen; wwii
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Der Rote Baron @ IMDB
1 posted on 04/01/2008 3:16:52 PM PDT by wolf78
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To: wolf78

2 posted on 04/01/2008 3:19:08 PM PDT by mgstarr ("Some of us drink because we're not poets." Arthur (1981))
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To: wolf78

The chivalry but was complete B.S., of course.

The Red Barron was very keen on the easy kill (like any soldier, really).

I say that with MWT, Sr, Sr, having been a soldier for the Germans in WWI, with his father being awarded a Blue Max (which I own).


3 posted on 04/01/2008 3:21:04 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: wolf78

Lets see them make a film about Erik Hartmann, then I’ll be impressed. The Baron has been in many other films over the years.


4 posted on 04/01/2008 3:21:18 PM PDT by Bringbackthedraft ( Clinton/Obama .. Obama/ Clinton ... Mc Cain/Obama .. Mc Cain/Clinton ... What a Choice!? Puleeeze!)
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To: wolf78
Snoopy would NOT be happy...


5 posted on 04/01/2008 3:21:42 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (Shalom!)
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To: wolf78

Just another Hun in the sun.


6 posted on 04/01/2008 3:23:11 PM PDT by JCG
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To: wolf78; 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten; 359Henrie; 6323cd; 75thOVI; abb; ACelt; Adrastus; A message; ...
To all: please ping me to threads that are relevant to the MilHist list (and/or) please add the keyword "MilHist" to the appropriate thread. Thanks in advance.

Please FREEPMAIL indcons if you want on or off the "Military History (MilHist)" ping list.

7 posted on 04/01/2008 3:26:06 PM PDT by indcons (A lie repeated 100 times becomes the truth - ChiCom pedophile Chairman Mao)
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To: wolf78

I once read a reference to the bio released during WWI, and the Germany censors let slip a passage that for all practical purposes, described the sexual release von Richthofen said he got from downing planes.


8 posted on 04/01/2008 3:27:27 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Bringbackthedraft

I remember reading about Herr Hartmann,352 confirmed kills and he got started half way into the war.A fantastic fighter pilot but only a fair shot,he said he always wanted to get close enough that it was impossible to miss.


9 posted on 04/01/2008 3:30:58 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (168 grains of instant conflict resolution)
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To: wolf78
http://www.redbaron-themovie.com/index_en.html
10 posted on 04/01/2008 3:33:37 PM PDT by uglybiker (I do not suffer from mental illness. I quite enjoy it, actually.)
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To: wolf78

I must admit, I still don’t understand why America decided to get involved in WWI. The Germans weren’t all that bad in that war—and had they won, surely Hitler would have never risen to power.


11 posted on 04/01/2008 3:34:18 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (Shalom!)
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To: wolf78

I don’t know how much of the legend of the Red Baron is true and how much is... uh... enhanced, but that’s probably true of most great historical figures. It’s basically true even if certain parts are a bit more polished than the reality.

There’s certainly nothing wrong with telling the story, and from a German viewpoint. Hitler may have been a sadistic murdering madman, but he had some real honest heroes working for him. Along with the ones that were just as cruel as he was.

Just as there’s nothing wrong with admiring Rommel for his role and place in history. Certainly a great general and tactical mind. He was merely playing for the wrong team.


12 posted on 04/01/2008 3:36:33 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: AnalogReigns

That is a very good point.


13 posted on 04/01/2008 3:37:51 PM PDT by reg45
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To: wolf78
If it is half as good as "Das Boot", I can't wait to see it.

In the last few years I've become very interested in foreign films on the wars, just to see it from a different perspective.

14 posted on 04/01/2008 3:38:42 PM PDT by BallyBill (Serial Hit-N-Run poster)
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To: Calvin Locke

15 posted on 04/01/2008 3:38:52 PM PDT by Michael.SF. ("democrat" -- 'one who panders to the crude and mindless whims of the masses " - Joseph J. Ellis)
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To: Calvin Locke
..the sexual release von Richthofen said he got from downing planes.

Jeez, talk about ruining the expectations of the film.

16 posted on 04/01/2008 3:40:26 PM PDT by BallyBill (Serial Hit-N-Run poster)
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To: wolf78

I wonder who they credit with his kill? It seems to me they never really proved one way or another who’s bullet was responsible for killing the red barron.


17 posted on 04/01/2008 3:41:01 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: wolf78

18 posted on 04/01/2008 3:45:26 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: MeanWestTexan
I'm sure things were brutal. However I recall reading Eddie Rickenbacker's Flying Circus as a teenager, and certain odd acts of chivalry occasionally did occur in that war.

Flying, after all, was barely a 10 year old invention, and the planes little more than powered kites...flying at speeds of an ultra-light today.

There's an air show every weekend from May to October in Bealton, Va., about 1 hour outside of DC. All biplanes. I've been to lots of air shows, but this one is my favorite, as the planes are SO SLOW (and close) you can see them do all their maneuvers in detail. It's hard to imagine fighting from such things.

19 posted on 04/01/2008 3:52:57 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (Shalom!)
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To: Ramius
There’s certainly nothing wrong with telling the story, and from a German viewpoint. Hitler may have been a sadistic murdering madman, but he had some real honest heroes working for him. Along with the ones that were just as cruel as he was.

Inasmuch as Manfred Von Richtofen fought, and died, in WWI, when the late, and largely unlamented Herr Hitler was a mere corporal, it's difficult to say That Rittmeister Von Richtofen worked for the aforementioned Hitler goon. One of Von Richtofen's compatriots, however, did end up working for Hitler, and that was Hermann Goering...

the infowarrior

20 posted on 04/01/2008 3:55:14 PM PDT by infowarrior
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To: AnalogReigns
Germany was sinking our ships on the high seas. The sinking of the Lusitania was the ‘official’ reason for us entering the war against Germany.

If you check out the Zimmerman Telegram you will also find out the ‘real’ reason behind our entry into the war. Germany was conspiring with Mexico (we had just fought them) to try to get them and Japan to attack us. It was causus beli for war. But we couldn't say the REAL reason, because it would reveal that the British had broken the German code.

We had damn good reasons to enter the war.

The problem was the Treaty of Versailles that imposed a ‘peace’ on Germany that was tantamount to economic slavery in perpetuity. Germany had to get out of the ‘peace’ treaty, even if it had to fight the entire world to do it. Hitler capitalized upon this historic reality to catapult himself into power.

21 posted on 04/01/2008 3:56:28 PM PDT by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: mamelukesabre
I wonder who they credit with his kill? It seems to me they never really proved one way or another who’s bullet was responsible for killing the red barron.

While it is still disputed to this day, as far as I know, Roy Brown got, and still has, the credit for Von Richtofen...

the infowarrior

22 posted on 04/01/2008 3:59:19 PM PDT by infowarrior
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To: infowarrior
Inasmuch as Manfred Von Richtofen fought, and died, in WWI,

HAH! Oh, jeez... of course you're right. I don't know why that came out of me.

23 posted on 04/01/2008 4:05:16 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: Kolokotronis
(Actor) Schweighoefer actually looks the part:


24 posted on 04/01/2008 4:05:41 PM PDT by wolf78
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To: wolf78

An adversary rendered helpless by jammed weapons didn’t make him less of a kill for the Red Baron, who IIRC had a silver loving cup engraved for each `victory’.

And wasn’t von Richthofen, in pursuit of his eighty-first cup, killed by ground fire when he pursued the Canadian Lt. Brown over Allied lines after the latter’s guns had jammed or run out of ammo? His plane crashed in Allied territory, that’s for sure.


25 posted on 04/01/2008 4:07:04 PM PDT by elcid1970 (;^))
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To: mamelukesabre
mamelukesabre, I recently saw a show on this very subject. As infowarrior mentions in another post, pilot Roy Brown was officially awarded the kill, but the show uses modern forensic methods, and they believe that an Australian infantryman firing a machine gun from the ground was the real one who took out the Baron. More info can be found at the link below http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/redbaron/about.html
26 posted on 04/01/2008 4:09:00 PM PDT by Surtur
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To: AnalogReigns

I learned to fly in a Stearman crop duster -— a later training bi-plane (came around in the 30s, I think), so I can appreciate the slow speed.

As an aside, you know that buzz, buzzz, buzz, interupted engine sound you always hear in WWI movies?

That was from the engine being turned off briefly to bring the plane to stall speed -— there was NO THROTTLE.


27 posted on 04/01/2008 4:10:59 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: infowarrior

I saw a show on The Military Channel that indicated that Richtoffen was brought down by .303 rounds from British soldiers on the ground.


28 posted on 04/01/2008 4:11:43 PM PDT by LSUfan
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To: infowarrior

Thats right. Hermann Goering was put in command of the
Jasta after Von Richtofen’s death. I have a photograph
around here someplace of Goering in an all white Fokker
D-VII.

Mike


29 posted on 04/01/2008 4:15:09 PM PDT by doublecansiter
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To: elcid1970

“And wasn’t von Richthofen, in pursuit of his eighty-first cup, killed by ground fire when he pursued the Canadian Lt. Brown over Allied lines after the latter’s guns had jammed or run out of ammo?”

Correct.


30 posted on 04/01/2008 4:17:13 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: LSUfan
I saw a show on The Military Channel that indicated that Richtoffen was brought down by .303 rounds from British soldiers on the ground.

That has been the dispute since the day he was shot down. Allied Command gave the credit to Brown, although it was never really certain that it was a round from his Vickers machinegun, or the Vickers guns of the Australian antiaircraft unit which was also firing at Von Richtofen's plane. No ballistics tests were ever done on the fatal round, which pierced Von Richtofen's heart, and since the guns all fired the same caliber, it's anybody's guess as to who really fired the fatal shot...

the infowarrior

31 posted on 04/01/2008 4:19:21 PM PDT by infowarrior
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To: Farmer Dean
Good afternoon.
“A fantastic fighter pilot but only a fair shot”

Probably a better pilot and marksman than Hartmann, but less lucky, was Hans-Joachim Marseille.

From April of 1941 to September of 1942 “The Star Of Afrika” shot down 151 British and Commonwealth aircraft, in addition to seven kills during the Blitz.

He was killed bailing out when the cockpit of his fighter filled with smoke due to a malfunction (not combat with an enemy) and he struck the tailplane.

Many of the surviving Luftwaffe aces named Marseille as the best. It doesn't matter in the end though, does it. You have to rack up the kills and Hartmann did that.

A comparable case in WWI was Werner Voss. Voss shot down 48 Allied planes in less than a year, on track to beat Von Richtofen.

His pride got the best of him when he tangled alone with a flight of between 5 and 8 British aces and refused to take advantage repeated opportunities to break contact after out flying the Brits for ten minutes.

I am amazed by fighter pilots, no matter their nationality or their record.

Michael Frazier

32 posted on 04/01/2008 4:23:24 PM PDT by brazzaville (No surrender, no retreat. Well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: infowarrior

This show, and I understand it’s just a TV show, indicated that the round was fired from a bolt action rifle. They did all sorts of convoluted simulations to “prove” it.


33 posted on 04/01/2008 4:24:21 PM PDT by LSUfan
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To: AnalogReigns

Quite simple really. The Allies controled the seas (trade). Not permitted to trade with the Central Powers we traded exclusively with the Allies and extended them unimaginable amounts of credit. American leaders assumed we simply could not afford to let the Central Powers win. Ironically the Allies never paid those debts in any case.


34 posted on 04/01/2008 4:24:58 PM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: brazzaville
A comparable case in WWI was Werner Voss. Voss shot down 48 Allied planes in less than a year, on track to beat Von Richtofen.

Voss was a member of the same Jasta as Von Richtofen, which had been started early in the war by the leading German "ace" of that time Oswald Boelke, who had been killed in action. Interestingly enough, I went to the movie link to see which *historical* German pilots of that famous group were going to be portrayed, and Voss was there, although I didn't see either Boelke, or Goering, although they should have an appearance in the film...

the infowarrior

35 posted on 04/01/2008 4:27:45 PM PDT by infowarrior
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To: LSUfan
This show, and I understand it’s just a TV show, indicated that the round was fired from a bolt action rifle. They did all sorts of convoluted simulations to “prove” it.

The British .303 round was used in both the standard service rifle, and the Vickers machinegun in common use by British, Canadian, and ANZAC forces of the time. No matter what convolutions they went through, the fact that the bullet was a .303 is essentially meaningless, without ballistics testing, which had never, and undoubtedly will never, be done. Once again, who knows?

the infowarrior

36 posted on 04/01/2008 4:31:40 PM PDT by infowarrior
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To: Surtur; infowarrior

When I said “they” I meant the movie. I’m already aware of the uncertainty. I’m just curious if the movie tries to solve the mystery. As a kid I read several books about the first airplanes, the wright brothers, and the first airplanes used in war. It’s funny that there is a post or two on this thread mentioning snoopy because I’m pretty sure that’s what got me interested in reading about the subject. As soon as I was informed that the “red baron” was a real person and had nothing to do with pizza, I had to find out more. I still remember reading how they fired machine guns through propellers before inventing timing belts for the guns. They just bolted on steel deflectors to the backside of the propellers. You could only shoot so many times before the propellors got cracks and flew apart. THen you crash landed.


37 posted on 04/01/2008 4:32:10 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: allmendream

“Germany was conspiring with Mexico and Japan to get them to attack us”
Pardon me, but Japan was at war with Germany by 1915.
The English had promised them the German and Austrian properties in China for attacking them.


38 posted on 04/01/2008 4:34:01 PM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: nkycincinnatikid
Doesn't change what the Germans planned or what the Zimmerman telegram said.

http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/zimmermann/

39 posted on 04/01/2008 4:42:12 PM PDT by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: nkycincinnatikid

The Germans entertained ideas that they’d get the Japanese to switch sides.


40 posted on 04/01/2008 4:56:05 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: brazzaville

I’d agree Marseille was the best ever. Hartmann was on the Eastern Front.

German Jagdeschwaders that had fought on both the Eastern and Western fronts considered the Eastern front a “vacation.”


41 posted on 04/01/2008 4:57:43 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: allmendream

It is logical that Germany would be anxious to prepare for the contingency of Americas entrance into the war on the side of the Allies.
And it would be naive to think that every belligerent was not doing something of the sort.
And the frenzy created by Britains friends in the American press over the German Ambassadors inquiry was very effective indeed.
Do you imagine however that England would have enforced Canadian neutrality had the USA supported the Central Powers?


42 posted on 04/01/2008 5:06:14 PM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: Ramius

Rommel ignored and would not enforce Hitler’s “Commando Order” which decreed that Allied commandos and paratroops captured behind the lines were to summarily executed, even if they were in full uniform. Most other of the German generals fighting in the West ignored it as well but Rommel was pretty open in his defiance, and the order was eventually rescinded.


43 posted on 04/01/2008 5:25:21 PM PDT by DMZFrank
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To: AnalogReigns

Germany’s unrestricted submarine warfare drew us in. Up until the ‘unrestricted’ policy was announced we were as mad at the British as the Germans because of their surface blockade of the North & Baltic seas. The only way Germany could retaliate was by a submarine blockade, and unfortunately, that inevitably meant sinking US ships.


44 posted on 04/01/2008 5:36:14 PM PDT by skeeter
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To: Bringbackthedraft

That would be an interesting film on Hartman, there are a number of WWII aces that would make good movies.

For a truly amazing tale they could make one on Joachim Marseille (start of the desert).

Adolf Galland would be interesting as he led the Luftwaffe against the USAF.

***Lets see them make a film about Erik Hartmann, then I’ll be impressed. The Baron has been in many other films over the years.***


45 posted on 04/01/2008 5:36:16 PM PDT by msnpatriot
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To: allmendream

Americans tend to know about the Western Front in WWI, but know nothing about the Eastern Front or the Austria-Italy Front. Due to the movies, people will know a bit about the fight against the Turks via ‘Lawrence of Arabia’ and ‘Gallipoli’.


46 posted on 04/01/2008 5:43:49 PM PDT by Jabba the Nutt (Just laugh at them!)
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To: mamelukesabre

“I wonder who they credit with his kill?”

Ozzie ground troops or a Canadian pilot? There is evidence for both.


47 posted on 04/01/2008 5:44:31 PM PDT by Levante
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To: BallyBill

“In the last few years I’ve become very interested in foreign films on the wars, just to see it from a different perspective.”

Watch BLESSED BY THE FIRE (Illluminados por el Fuego), an Argentinian film about the Falklands War. Surprisingly well done.


48 posted on 04/01/2008 5:46:04 PM PDT by Levante
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To: Ramius
I have to agree, and after having read countless books on him I would say he was as good a family man as he was a military mind.

Most of Rommel's numerous writings and letters have survived, and really tell a story about the man.

Some flaws of his might have been naivety towards Hitler and politics, but he changed in time and learned.

He would have negotiated with the allies if possible, while trying to stop the Soviets.

He wouldn't let his son join the SS, he signed an agreement with Hitler to always be faithful to him.

He did not want to follow strategic orders, similar to Patton.

***Just as there’s nothing wrong with admiring Rommel for his role and place in history. Certainly a great general and tactical mind. He was merely playing for the wrong team.***

49 posted on 04/01/2008 5:46:34 PM PDT by msnpatriot
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To: skeeter

One of the most interesting episodes of WW1 (or after) was US forces landing in Russia and kicking commie ass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Bear_Expedition


50 posted on 04/01/2008 5:49:24 PM PDT by Levante
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