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We are Losing Our Country...Can We Save It?
New Media Journal ^ | April 2, 2008 | Chris North

Posted on 04/02/2008 6:41:16 AM PDT by K-oneTexas

We are Losing Our Country...Can We Save It?
by Chris North
April 2, 2008
 

We are losing our country. This surely comes as no surprise to any number of conservative writers and others who may have come to the conclusion that our country is being stolen from us.

 

It seems, though, that a majority of Americans fail to grasp the fact that we are in a fight to the finish for our very existence. Else why do so many of our fellow citizens fail to exercise their right to vote and take so little interest in what our elected officials are doing – or not doing – in our behalf?

 

The danger to our country comes from two factions – a mass illegal immigration (read invasion) by illegal aliens – mostly from Mexico and then there is radical Islam or Islamofascism. This article addresses the threat from Mexico and the cost of mass illegal immigration to the American taxpayers. (Readers may receive considerable information on the very real threat from radical Islam from editorials and articles in The New Media Journal or by connecting with Basics Project).

 

I have seen most of the following data and cost factors in various publications and on the Internet. But until I saw these factors consolidated I did not fully grasp the drastic impact on our country that they portrayed. The factors are presented here for consideration and assessment. URLs are included for validation of the facts presented.

 

1) $11 billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare and social services to illegal aliens each year. (Courtesy of the American taxpayer. There is an apparent conflict between this source and the source at Item # 8 in the total cost shown. An average of the two figures involved gives a total of $56 billion for this item. In crunching figures for total cost for illegal alien immigrants, it is probably best to use the $56 billion figure for this item.)

 

2) 2.2 billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.

 

3) $2.5 billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid and emergency medical care for illegal aliens. (Our emergency rooms are being inundated by illegal aliens on a daily basis and can no longer adequately care for American citizens – those who pay the bill for ER services. This problem grows rapidly each day.)

 

4) $12 billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English. (The trend seems to be toward compelling their American classmates to learn Spanish. This is outrageous!)

 

5) $17 billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. (We need to re-look the 14th Amendment to our Constitution. It may only need redefining but might need revision.)

 

6) $3 million dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. (This statistic was developed over a year ago and is growing rapidly.)

 

7) 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.

 

8) $90 billion dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare and Social Services. (There is an apparent conflict between this source and the source at Item #1. I have taken an average of the two figures to arrive at the total cost t to the American taxpayer.)

 

9) The illegal aliens cause $200 billion dollars a year in suppressed American wages. (To say illegal immigrants do jobs American workers won’t do is ludicrous. Pay American workers at least the minimum wage and they will take the jobs. Paying workers – illegals or American – below minimum wage is breaking the law).

 

10) Illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that’s two-and-a-half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US. (Remember that, in almost every case, illegal alien criminals are defended by a Public Defender - a court appointed lawyer paid for by the American taxpayer.)

 

11) During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border along with as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from terrorist countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the US from the Southern border. (The cost to the American taxpayer in coping with illegal drugs coming from Mexico cannot be easily arrived at and are, indeed, almost incalculable. Building the state-of-the-art security fence, already budgeted, would curtail the lion’s share of this drug traffic. If for no other reason than that the fence must be built.)

 

12) The National Policy Institute estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 billion and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.” (The concept of mass deportation may seem laughable at first but is a very real and viable option as I pointed out in an article in the New Media Journal July 28, 2007.)

 

13) In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 billion in remittances back to their countries of origin. (This may be good for the Mexican economy but does nothing for the American economy. That money was lost to the US economy so is included in the total cost to the US)

 

14) The “Dark Side” of illegal immigration: Nearly one million sex crimes committed by illegal immigrants in the United States.” (There is no viable means of computing the total monetary cost to the American taxpayer for coping with these crimes – but the cost alone in medical, rehab and legal fees is surely staggering. The cost in terms of human suffering by victims is not addressed here.)

 

Snopes is provided for those who wish to verify a particular item.

 

If this doesn’t bother you can it be that you don't really care what happens to our country or what losing it will mean to our children and grand children? On the other hand, if it does cause you serious concern, share this information with your friends and ask them to do the same.

 

Form your own political action group with the stated purpose of pressuring your elected representatives to accomplish the following actions if they want to remain in office. Do this on your own if necessary but preferably with a neighborhood political action group. Tell your elected officials and as many other lawmakers as possible that they must:

 

▪ Seal the border with Mexico before even attempting to pass any more legislation dealing with illegal alien immigrants. They must do this NOW.

 

This will mean utilization of the National Guard and Army Reserve Forces, increasing Immigration Control Enforcement (ICE) and Border Patrol personnel strengths and use of Active Military Forces as may be required. (Nothing in our Constitution prohibits the use of our Active Military Forces for defending our country while they are stationed in our country. Quite to the contrary – that is exactly what they were organized to do starting with the birth of our nation.) We want the fence built NOW. No more delays or excuses. Use the Army Corps of Engineers to oversee accomplishment of the task of building the fence.

 

▪ Revise the 14th Amendment of our Constitution, if necessary, to close the apparent loophole that allows babies born to illegal immigrants while they are in the U.S. to automatically receive American citizenship. This must be done NOW. No more automatic citizenship for “anchor” babies. Every day delayed hurts our country and saps its resources further. No more American tax dollars for illegal alien babies.

 

▪ Immediately, start deporting all illegal alien immigrants that have been in the U.S. less than five years. Screen all remaining illegals for those who have committed a felony (i.e., have a criminal record) or found running drugs and/or selling drugs. These should be deported immediately after being informed that if they return to this country and are apprehended, they will be incarcerated for five years without hope of parole. Deport all illegals, now incarcerated and serving time, immediately after completion of their sentence.

 

▪ Enforce laws precluding businesses, large and small, from hiring an illegal alien immigrant. First offense should be a warning posted publicly, broadcasted and carry a notice that a second offense will bring a massive fine sufficient to significantly impact on the business operations of the firm(s) concerned. Third offense would bring heavy fines, possible closure of the business and possible jail sentences for those who continued to hire illegal alien immigrants.

 

▪ Issue national authority, mandated by federal law, for all city, county and state police to arrest, detain and report to ICE any and all illegal aliens encountered.

 

▪ All remaining illegals must be documented and told that if they wish to remain in this country, they must apply for citizenship and wait their turn behind those immigrants who have already applied for citizenship. They will be told there will be no amnesty for anyone. They will not be eligible for Social Security until they attain citizenship. They will not receive reduced tuition fees for college education and will not be eligible for welfare until they receive a Green Card. They will be told that they must learn to speak English as a prerequisite for attaining citizenship. They will be told that if they are convicted of a crime they will be deported.

 

The foregoing calls for some stern tough decisions. These are stern, tough times we live in. Time is running out on us. Two years from now will probably be too late. We must act now with alacrity and ironbound determination. The practice of sitting on our duffs and “Let George do it” won’t save us now. If we are to save our country for our children, grand children – and ourselves, for what is left of the rest of our lives on this earth – we must act NOW.

 

We must initiate and conduct an ongoing assault on our lawmakers at every level by phone, e-mail, fax messages, snail mail and personal visits.

 

We must continue the assault until our demands are met. This is a major election year. That is in our favor. If we act soon enough, we just might be able to save our country.



TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: liberalism

1 posted on 04/02/2008 6:41:17 AM PDT by K-oneTexas
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To: K-oneTexas
Else why do so many of our fellow citizens fail to exercise their right to vote...

I have no problem with this. I wish more (democrats) would refrain from voting.

2 posted on 04/02/2008 6:43:37 AM PDT by Sgt_Schultze
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To: K-oneTexas

Don’t worry. When my generation takes over all this stuff will be reversed. We’re only waiting until the hippies retire and after seizing control we’ll rebuild this country, step by bitter step. It’s only a matter of waiting it out and contrary as to how we are represented and described, we care more about this country and its values than most realize.


3 posted on 04/02/2008 6:47:02 AM PDT by Niuhuru (Don't burn a bra, burn a feminist!)
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To: K-oneTexas
Immediately, start deporting all illegal alien immigrants that have been in the U.S. less than five years.

Why the five years limitation? Either we believe in the rule of law or we don't.

4 posted on 04/02/2008 6:52:11 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Niuhuru

Sure, keep dreaming. Until and unless your generation takes back the schools and news media very soon, there will not be any productive citizens to populate your country.


5 posted on 04/02/2008 6:54:16 AM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: Niuhuru
You are a day late and a dollar short. By 2050, 29% of the US population will be Hispanic [up from one percent in 1965]and one in five will be foreign born. Non-Hipanic whites will be 47% [down from 89% in 1965]. Legal immigration policies have changed our demographics irrevocably and amnesty will be the final nail in the coffin.

The 1965 Immigration Act: Anatomy of a Disaster

6 posted on 04/02/2008 6:56:42 AM PDT by kabar
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To: K-oneTexas

How do you know we are losing it, and this isn’t just the way things are supposed to happen?


7 posted on 04/02/2008 6:57:11 AM PDT by stuartcr (Election year.....Who we gonna hate, in '08?)
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To: K-oneTexas

I’ve been hearing this my entire life and I suppose I’ll still be hearing it the day I die.


8 posted on 04/02/2008 7:14:23 AM PDT by Intimidator (Its not unilateral,just try saying you're a Progressive Dem in your typical Evangelical chur)
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To: Niuhuru
I hope you're right. Here's a boomer who would enthusiastically help you.

Here's an idea which could restore a measure of solvency to social security and shink government gradually at the same time. Heck, I'd even volunteer to be a senior bureaucrat under this plan and help undermine some of the aging hippie overlords.

9 posted on 04/02/2008 7:19:30 AM PDT by Vigilanteman ((Are there any men left in Washington? Or are there only cowards? Ahmad Shah Massoud))
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To: K-oneTexas

Buy Guns.


10 posted on 04/02/2008 7:22:39 AM PDT by steel_resolve (I stand with the Tibetans.)
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To: K-oneTexas
Can we save it? YES!

But, not by relying upon the two corrupt parties.

11 posted on 04/02/2008 7:23:14 AM PDT by deuteronlmy232
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To: stuartcr

That comment makes no sense whatsoever.


12 posted on 04/02/2008 7:24:11 AM PDT by steel_resolve (I stand with the Tibetans.)
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To: K-oneTexas

You’ve got to revoke Al Gore’s telecommunications act of 1996 first, or the brainwashing of the American people into accepting the destruction of their culture will never stop.


13 posted on 04/02/2008 7:28:41 AM PDT by hedgetrimmer (I'm a billionaire! Thanks WTO and the "free trade" system!--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: steel_resolve

Please explain why it may not just be the way God intends it to be.


14 posted on 04/02/2008 7:28:44 AM PDT by stuartcr (Election year.....Who we gonna hate, in '08?)
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To: Niuhuru
“It’s only a matter of waiting it out”

Dream on... Life as I knew it in the US turned downward about the time pervert Clinton became president.
It has since been a downward spiral.
I sold off everything in 2002 and adjusted my life so I can live anywhere.
At this point I can not even conceive of living in the US.
Here I live as well or better then ever, without a car, without a credit card, and without a house.

I am now over 60, so child rearing and other responsibilities are behind me.

Sad to say, I do not see the good times ever returning in the US. I just see it getting MUCH worse.

15 posted on 04/02/2008 7:38:49 AM PDT by AlexW (Reporting from Bratislava, Slovakia. Happy not to be back in the USA for now.)
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To: K-oneTexas

16 posted on 04/02/2008 7:41:44 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: kabar
Diversity leads to segregation. The red-blue divide is much more than political. The western states will never really be lost. Rather, concentrations of illegals will resemble the city-states that emerged after the collapse of the Roman Empire.

Once a sufficient critical mass of citizens is achieved (you've see the same reports as I of massive inter-state migration), then the history of manifest destiny will merely be replayed as territory is reconquered.

No one ever learns from history - it simply isn't in our DNA. We must repeat the same steps & processes of our fore-fathers over & over again to achieve the same damn result.

17 posted on 04/02/2008 7:55:12 AM PDT by semantic
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To: Niuhuru
What so many libs and complacent rinos can't logic out is that, once this country is lost, nobody can repair it. The takers won't be giving it back so we can have a second chance.

I applaud your enthusiasm and love of country and it's a ray of hope to read it, but...

18 posted on 04/02/2008 8:01:47 AM PDT by BBT
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To: kabar

Once we decided that America was a “proposition” nation which could be multicultural and still be “America”, we were doomed. America was an extension of European civilization. Our Founders took ideas of liberty, rights, and the rule of law that had been germinating in England for a long time, and because of our geographic isolation from the crown, put them into effect. The idea that our nation can fill up with people from alien cultures to the point that they are the majority, and America will continue as the great experiment in liberty that it was, is a fatal error.

A small number of people from other cultures adds some spice to society and they can be assimilated. Mass immigration from alien lands not only cannot be assimilated, but will eventually subvert the founding culture.


19 posted on 04/02/2008 8:04:09 AM PDT by puroresu (Enjoy ASIAN CINEMA? See my Freeper page for recommendations (updated!).)
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To: stuartcr

Extrapolated out, your line of argument denies that there is evil in the world, and that good or bad, everything is a part of God’s plan. But even God acknowledges there is evil in the world not of his doing and that our charge is to strive against it. Is Illegal Immigration evil? I will leave that to the experts. What I know is this: To come into a host country illegally, against the MAJORITY of American’s wishes, violates my sense of right and wrong, and therefore I will strive against it as I see it as unjust.


20 posted on 04/02/2008 8:05:28 AM PDT by steel_resolve (I stand with the Tibetans.)
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To: steel_resolve

I do believe that all that happens, is part of God’s plan. How do you know God acknowledges this? If God created all, then how could He have not created evil?


21 posted on 04/02/2008 8:11:58 AM PDT by stuartcr (Election year.....Who we gonna hate, in '08?)
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To: stuartcr

read a bible. that could probably give you a clue on how God feels about evil.


22 posted on 04/02/2008 8:18:38 AM PDT by steel_resolve (I stand with the Tibetans.)
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To: Niuhuru
When my generation takes over all this stuff will be reversed

I hope that you're right and that it's not too late by then.

23 posted on 04/02/2008 8:22:30 AM PDT by NCjim (The more I use Windows, the more I love UNIX)
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To: semantic

The nation will be lost as we lose our national identity and shared sense of endeavor. The impact of unbridled and less diverse immigration will be to change the entire country, not just the western states. We will take on the profile of a third world country with a large, permanent underclass and a wealthy elite living in walled compounds with private guards. This country will be taken down thru its own democratic institutions, i.e., thru the ballot box.


24 posted on 04/02/2008 8:57:34 AM PDT by kabar
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To: puroresu
Samuel Huntington agrees with you: The Hispanic Challenge
25 posted on 04/02/2008 8:59:15 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Niuhuru

Can’t happen soon enough! Our votes sure aren’t the answer.


26 posted on 04/02/2008 9:05:50 AM PDT by devistate one four (nam '68)
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To: Niuhuru
When my generation takes over all this stuff will be reversed. We’re only waiting until the hippies retire and after seizing control we’ll rebuild this country, step by bitter step. It’s only a matter of waiting it out...

See Post #5 and this article, Study: Detroit gets F in Grad Rate.

The time for action is NOW, not when the hippies and Liberals give up their hold on power (they won't!).

Not one of our Presidential candidates will stop the downward spiral. They will only aid and abet the destruction. Our only hope is to start by turning Congress and the Senate around (a daunting task). In four years, it will be too late. America will be past the point of no return. The worst will be cemented in with new laws and the Supreme Court will be stacked with new Liberals.

America will be effectively finished just in time for you to raise your kids.

27 posted on 04/02/2008 9:07:35 AM PDT by Gritty (Rule by the people is threatened if they're unable to gain a plausible grip on reality-Tony Blankley)
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To: AlexW

Running away from MY COUNTRY is NEVER an option.

You can only have something stolen from if you LET it be stolen.

I AM a “Native American”. I was BORN here. My folks were BORN here. My great-great grandfolks were born here. My ancestors came here and hacked a Nation out of the wild, fought, bled and died for it, and made it into something beautiful.

You want to run away, you go ahead. My people weren’t made that way.

“Child rearing and other responsibilities are BEHIND you..”

The duty, obligation, and RESPONSIBILITY OF BEING AN AMERICAN CITIZEN IS NEVER BEHIND YOU.

“I was born an American. I live as an American; I shall die an American; and I intend to perform the DUTIES INCUMBENT UPON ME IN THAT CHARACTER TO THE END OF MY CAREER. I mean to do this with absolute disregard to personal consequences. What are the personal consequences?

What is the individual man with all the good or evil that may betide him, in comparison with the good and evil which may befall a great country, and in the midst of great transactions which concern that country’s fate? Let the consequences be what they will, I am careless, No man can suffer too much, and no man can fall too soon, if he suffer or if he fall, in the defense of the liberties and Constitution of his country.”

...Daniel Webster

People DIED for this. I’ll NEVER give it up.


28 posted on 04/02/2008 9:12:19 AM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By any means necessary.)
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To: steel_resolve

I have, not all, but that requires a belief that I do not possess.


29 posted on 04/02/2008 9:13:36 AM PDT by stuartcr (Election year.....Who we gonna hate, in '08?)
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To: puroresu
We don't even agree on the propositions. If all the immigrants came here because they believed in free market capitalism, limited government, personal responsibility, freedom of belief then we might be doing just fine.

As things stand though, they don't. We have all sorts of people who are anti-American, believen in group rights over individual rights, want socialism, censorship, and radical transformation of the society they are joining. This is summed up by their motto: "si, se puede".

Yes, we can transform your society into 'our' society. You know FUBU world, La Raza!

Given the level of 3rd world immigration already a a accomplished fact we better pray that the proposition nation idea does work! Elsewise everyone needs to buy another copy of Chittum's book.

30 posted on 04/02/2008 9:34:20 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: steel_resolve
"read a bible. that could probably give you a clue on how God feels about evil."

The Bible states in multiple places that God hates evil.

It is obvious God isn't doing anything about evil. It's all talk and no action, all bark and no bite, so who f-ing cares how God feels about evil.

How can anyone respect a God who is all bark and no bite?

America was founded upon individual rights and limited government.

When government became unlimited and obliterated individual rights, America died. We are no longer America.

You think you have rights? Try to exercise them. See what happens. See if government honors your "rights."

Many people believe God was instrumental in the founding of America.

Really? Then why has God allowed America to die? Why has God allowed government to push God aside, take over God's spot, and obliterate our rights?

Fact is, God was not instrumental in the founding of America. America was founded by men, just like any other nation down through history.

Our nation today shows no similarity to the nation they started. What those men believed back then is not believed today. Those men would be horrifed at what this nation has degenerated into.

The government they set up back then is not the government we have today. The form is the same, but the substance behind that form is radically different. No one in government today believes in individual rights. No one in government today believes in limited government.
31 posted on 04/02/2008 9:35:50 AM PDT by gpk9 ("Fairness" is the new Constitution and Bill of (no) Rights for America... I mean Amerika.)
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To: Vigilanteman

Too weird to ever work, sorry.


32 posted on 04/02/2008 9:36:54 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: K-oneTexas
There are lots of other ways we're losing our country. How about Wall Street banditry? $30 billion to ONE BANK last week, wow, that is same order of magnitude as all the money sent home by Mexicans. At least the majority of Mexicans are doing useful work somewhere.
33 posted on 04/02/2008 9:38:21 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black

It has actually worked for generation in Norfolk Island, among Native American tribes (before they met with white man’s welfare culture), in some Confucian Asian countries and in the early days of our Republic. The aged gave public service in return for social security. Public service was not a lifetime entitlement for a ruling class to be supported by the working class.


34 posted on 04/02/2008 10:14:58 AM PDT by Vigilanteman ((Are there any men left in Washington? Or are there only cowards? Ahmad Shah Massoud))
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To: gpk9
It is obvious God isn't doing anything about evil. It's all talk and no action, all bark and no bite, so who f-ing cares how God feels about evil.
35 posted on 04/02/2008 10:27:56 AM PDT by steel_resolve (I stand with the Tibetans.)
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To: steel_resolve

I meant to add to my post this thought: With a statement like that, what more could I possibly say to you?


36 posted on 04/02/2008 10:28:53 AM PDT by steel_resolve (I stand with the Tibetans.)
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To: kabar
The nation will be lost

And will eventually be re-constituted (pun intended).

It appears that many tend to ignore the temporal nature of any generations' cultural orthodoxy (ie "political correctness" in its current parlance). 500 years ago, one could be burned at the stake for heresy; 225, tried for treason for challenging the throne; 100, persecuted for sexual "deviancy".

As populations are further segregated and opinions hardened, the power of current fashionable orthodoxies which give protection to anti-American rhetoric/policies will fade. Once the battle lines are drawn, who cares what the enemy thinks of you (or they you)?

At that point, innate human behavior, which has been percolating along & driving natural selection for 3-5m years, eg distrust of non-group members, lethal actions undertaken to mitigate/eliminate competition, etc will once again burst forth.

We won't be here to see it, but I am very sanguine about the eventual outcome for those future generations versed in the history of Western Civ who wish to enjoy the benefits of liberty for themselves.

37 posted on 04/02/2008 10:56:37 AM PDT by semantic
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To: steel_resolve

You’re speechless. There is nothing more you can say. You’ve probably never heard someone come right out and speak the reality of this issue.

If God ever decides to get off His lazy ass and do something about evil, let us know. Until then, take your pathetic religion somewhere else. We’re not interested.


38 posted on 04/02/2008 11:00:36 AM PDT by gpk9 ("Fairness" is the new Constitution and Bill of (no) Rights for America... I mean Amerika.)
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To: gpk9

In my opinion, God is doing something about evil. He is bringing good into the world. Look no further than brave men and women sacrificing for things that are good - things like love, honor, etc. Or look in your everyday life - there are millions of people doing good everyday - far FAR outstripping the evil done in this world. The fact that you’re pissed he hasn’t eliminated evil and turned earth into a paradise of rainbows and puppies speaks more to your childish foot stomping more than anything else.


39 posted on 04/02/2008 2:00:41 PM PDT by steel_resolve (I stand with the Tibetans.)
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To: steel_resolve

You’re certainly entitled to your rose-colored glasses, but the rest of us realize America is dying, if not already dead, which I believe it is, evil far out-guns good in this world, and there are no signs of God intervening to stop it.

So which is it? God can’t, or God won’t?

Either way, he gets no respect from me.


40 posted on 04/02/2008 3:23:22 PM PDT by gpk9 ("Fairness" is the new Constitution and Bill of (no) Rights for America... I mean Amerika.)
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To: gpk9

Yo...gpk and steel_resolve...one team, one fight, brothers. Lighten up.

Bigger enemies out there facing us. Work together.

Peace.


41 posted on 04/02/2008 7:15:36 PM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By any means necessary.)
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To: semantic
We won't be here to see it, but I am very sanguine about the eventual outcome for those future generations versed in the history of Western Civ who wish to enjoy the benefits of liberty for themselves.

I don't share your optimism. The decline and demise of America will thrust the world into a new Dark Age, which will take centuries, if ever, to emerge from. There is no guarantee that the values and ideals that formed this society and Western Civilization will again hold sway over most of the world. Historically, it will only be a blip on the collective expericence of Man.

42 posted on 04/02/2008 7:37:55 PM PDT by kabar
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To: kabar
no guarantee that the values and ideals that formed this society and Western Civilization will again hold sway over most of the world

Evolutionary psychology - are we hardwired to superimpose cultural values over subsequent generations? I guess this is where we disagree - the US experience is not unique - it has happened before, and it will happen again.

43 posted on 04/02/2008 9:00:02 PM PDT by semantic
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To: semantic
the US experience is not unique -

Of course it is.

44 posted on 04/02/2008 9:41:31 PM PDT by kabar
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