Posted on 04/04/2008 1:47:47 AM PDT by Dawnsblood
Who says San Francisco doesn't honor veterans?
Last weekend, the city, which voted in 2005 to ban military recruiters from public high schools and colleges, unveiled a memorial to fighting men and women in uniform. The uniforms they donned, however, were not those familiar to American soldiers, sailors, airmen, or Marines.
The city honored American Communists and their fellow travelers who fought in the Spanish Civil War of the late 1930s. The $400,000 monument, donated from private funds but hosted on public land, extends 40-feet long and eight feet high.
Media accounts of the tribute uniformly noted that members of what has become known as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade fought against Francisco Franco. But those reports were conspicuously silent about the man they fought for: Joseph Stalin. Similarly absent was the word "Communist," a party with which roughly eighty percent of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade were officially affiliated.
The few surviving veterans are quick to point out that they fought fascists, but "fascist" in the Communist lexicon of the 1930s was applied to everyone from Franklin Roosevelt to Leon Trotsky to Francisco Franco. Stalin saw enemies everywhere, so many American members of the International Brigades in Spain partook in, and others fell victim to, purges of suspected deviationists among the "republican" armies.
ONE ORGANIZER called San Francisco's monument "an antidote to amnesia," but a more apt description would be "a product of amnesia." Communists who shamed themselves by serving Stalin have time on their side. Short memories, particularly on a subject as seemingly distant as Communism, enable the servants of an evil cause to reinvent themselves as history's heroes rather than its villains.
(Excerpt) Read more at theamericanprowler.com ...
I’m still waiting for “The Big One” (9.0 Richter) that separates San Fran from the mainland and sinks it into the ocean.
Funny I keep hoping for the 10.5 that provides me a glass bottom boat tour business from Rodeo Dr to the space needle.
You mean the one where everything east of Oakland sinks into the Atlantic?
Sounds like you may be living on the dark side.
> The few surviving veterans are quick to point out that they fought fascists, but “fascist” in the Communist lexicon of the 1930s was applied to everyone from Franklin Roosevelt to Leon Trotsky to Francisco Franco.
Francisco Franco’s allies were Hitler and Mussolini. In my books, the Communists in Spain were on the right side for a change.
I am newly convinced once more that when Almighty God decides that America needs an enema, that the nozzle will be inserted in San Francrisco.
For the West Coast anyway, although Seattle is also a contender.
And then Molotov and von Ribbentrop had a little meeting, and poof! the useful idiots were on Hitler's side after all.
-ccm
> I’ll bet you miss ol’ Uncle Joe don’t ya?
What a stupid thing to say.
> And then Molotov and von Ribbentrop had a little meeting, and poof! the useful idiots were on Hitler’s side after all.
Those were strange times for certain. Let’s hope that China and Islam don’t go the same way else the West is in real trouble.
Neither were. There were a few “good guys” on the side of the Republicans, and they got purged out by the Stalinists. See my previous.
> Saying the Communists were on the right side of anything is the height of stupidity.
That’s an even stupider thing to say.
There were a fair few communists fighting on the side of the Free French. There were even more fighting with Tito against the Nazis. Were they on the wrong side?
And why was it that the US sent untold bucketloads of weaponry to prop up Stalin against Hitler? Was the US supporting the wrong side?
> Look in the mirror, clown.
You first, Bozo.
> My point was always that Nazi and Fascist support of the Nationalists had been over-emphasized by history.
How so? Hitler got to road-test his war methodologies like blitzkrieg during the Spanish Civil war (he wasn’t even supposed to have war making capability at the time!) and the Luftwaffe was able to road-test their Stuka dive-bombing skills against relatively-benign targets. All of this was to stand the Nazis in good stead in 1939, 1940 and 1941 — the years that America played hooky from WW-II.
Franco and his tin-pot Fascist dictatorship was the sidebar to the main event, which was the build-up of the military capabilities of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy and the conquest of Europe. The West could have kiboshed that in Spain.
It’s fine for Americans to blame Chamberlain for Hitler being able to make the gains he did thru British indecisiveness and appeasement. Fair enough: Chamberlain deserved a fair bit of criticism for that.
That said, it’s not like America did anything to stop Hitler during that time. Only a few communist volunteers saw the threat for what it was.
Well, looks like we’ve got a live one here.
You fail to understand that Communists in the 20’s and 30’s were nothing more than sockpuppets of their ideological masters in Moscow, i.e., Lenin and Stalin. If they were ‘aligned’ with the Free French, it was pure opportunism and you ought to know that. As for Tito, he was a Communist first, his alleged ‘independence’ from Moscow not withstanding.
The Communists you cite were ALL on the wrong side, because at their core they were on STALIN’s side, and that IS the wrong side if you’ll give your head a shake and wake up those slumbering neurons up there.
As for the U.S. supporting Stalin against Hitler? You better damn well believe that was a mistake, we should have hung Stalin out to dry because the historical record demonstrates that Stalin was in fact even more of a genocidal murderer than Hitler was, something that doesn’t get talked about very much. The fact is, Hitler screwed up after launching Operation Barbarossa by not treating the Soviet civilians with even a minimum of respect, because many Russians welcomed the invading German troops as liberators, not as conquerers. Naturally, once the Nazis started butchering them they rallied to Uncle Joe and ‘Mother Russia’ and the rest is history. The reason the U.S. opened the floodgates of lend lease to the Soviet Union was because FDR’s administration was shot through with Communists, and his own Vice President (Henry Wallace) was the epitome of a ‘useful idiot’ (as Communists define the term), thank God that f’in goofball got dropped from the ticket in ‘44.
What you need pal, is to refresh yourself with the history of Communism, which ranks right up there with Islamofascism as the deadliest man-made political virus ever unleashed upon the Earth.
The only good Communist is a dead Communist. Learn it. Know it. Don’t forget it.
Doubtful, our friend is in New Zealand, not in the Peoples Republic Enclave of San Francrisco.
> Did you actually contribute to the statue in honor of these Bolshevik canaries-in-a-coalmine?
No, why would I?
Because you’re coming across as an apologist for those atheistic Communist scumbags, that’s why.
And when that happens, please don’t call me asking to support my fellow citizens.
They hate it when someone says it was (will be) God’s punishment, but.....
> If they were ‘aligned’ with the Free French, it was pure opportunism and you ought to know that. As for Tito, he was a Communist first, his alleged ‘independence’ from Moscow not withstanding.
They fought and died fighting Nazis all the same — which in my books makes them Good Guys: their unfortunate misbegotten ideology notwithstanding.
> The reason the U.S. opened the floodgates of lend lease to the Soviet Union was because FDR’s administration was shot through with Communists, and his own Vice President (Henry Wallace) was the epitome of a ‘useful idiot’ (as Communists define the term), thank God that f’in goofball got dropped from the ticket in ‘44.
And the reason why America opposed Churchill’s desire to keep the tanks rolling on to Moscow after Berlin fell was...?
> What you need pal, is to refresh yourself with the history of Communism, which ranks right up there with Islamofascism as the deadliest man-made political virus ever unleashed upon the Earth
No argument that communism is a bad thing. It isn’t the only bad thing.
The communists didn’t bomb London and send 6 million Jews to the gas chambers — the Nazis did. The communists didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor and rape & pillage their way thru Southeast Asia and the South Pacific — Imperial Japan did. Stalin never crossed swords with the West in anger, and in fairness we have the US to thank for that.
America obviously sees communism as being the major evil: I think that view would not be as predominant outside the US. Europeans and Commonwealth countries would probably rank Nazism and Fascism as being worse evils, by way of their direct experience during WW-II.
> Because you’re coming across as an apologist for those atheistic Communist scumbags, that’s why.
I have no use at all for Communist scumbags, and even less use for Nazis. Perhaps that puts it in perspective.
Islamofascism worse than Nazism? Really?
The truth is that dictators of any stripe are the biggest evil, regardless of political ideology. And the same will be true of America if it loses its checks and balances, whether the presidential dictator is on the left, the right or the center, Christian, Muslim, or atheist.
Freedom is the key. Always has been, always will be.
May I suggest you educate yourself about the war in Spain before making claims supporting communists and nazis - find and read The Last Crusade by Warren Carroll and you will find out that Franco had little use for Nazis, who frequently aligned with your communist heroes.
> May I suggest you educate yourself about the war in Spain before making claims supporting communists and nazis - find and read The Last Crusade by Warren Carroll and you will find out that Franco had little use for Nazis, who frequently aligned with your communist heroes.
May I suggest that you stop making assumptions about the quality and extent of my education? As I was not born, raised or educated in America it should be little wonder that my education and viewpoints will be different to yours. However, I can assure you that my education on the Spanish Civil War and on other matters is every bit as good and comprehensive and complete as yours — if not better.
As to “Communists” being my “heroes” — don’t be offensive. It makes you sound like the intellectual snob that perhaps you are.
Mark Steyn on Huckabee: “...Where I part company with Huck’s supporters is in believing he’s any kind of solution. He’s friendlier to the teachers’ unions than any other so-called “cultural conservative” which is why in New Hampshire he’s the first Republican to be endorsed by the NEA. His healthcare pitch is Attack Of The Fifty Foot Nanny, beginning with his nationwide smoking ban. This is, as Jonah Goldberg put it, compassionate conservatism on steroids big paternalistic government that can only enervate even further “our culture.” So Iowa chose to reward, on the Democrat side, a proponent of the conventional secular left, and, on the Republican side, a proponent of a new Christian left. If that’s the choice, this is going to be a long election year."
Enuf said.
You are correct. And Franco was not that close to Hitler as he was part Jewish and would never ally himself totally to the 3rd Reich..
This is actually a religious monument dedicated to the worship of “The God That Failed”.
The Commies have killed more folks than the Nazis - try on 100 million foir the Commies alone.
In all fairness, both ideologies are evil scum. The thing is that the extreme left does not get the condemnation it so deserves.
Unless you evaluate that whole experience in terms of the crimes the Commies in the Spanish Republic intended to commit nothing else makes any sense.
Put it this way, the Germans and Italians probably did the correct thing for that one time and supported Franco. It's noteworthy that by the middle of WWII (American time) Franco had repositioned Spain such that it was no longer counted as useful support by the Nazis. Franco also appointed a pro-English prime minister.
In the end Spain was spared the full horrors of what became WWII; their Jews were not taken to the camps; they avoided a national "gulag" that'd probably killed off several times the half million who supposedly died in the Civil War.
I'd say that on the whole Franco enabled Spain to get the best possible outcome out of a bad lot.
That doesn't mean he was a nice guy ~ but the people he faced were far worse.
Note ~ in the early period, when the Commies (under Stalin's orders) tried to take over Spain, Stalin was pretty busy having show-trials and purges.
Eventually he found himself involved in a series of wars with Finland. The Finns kicked Russian a$$.
All of this stuff was fairly distracting to the Red Army ~ probably one of the reasons Hitler and Stalin concluded a non-aggression treaty (and divided Poland between then).
Eventually, the "distractions" dried up and the Germans attacked the Russians about a month before the Russians had decided to attack the Germans.
Events in Spain were a mere sideshow compared to the main event which became called WWII.
At the same time, from the Swedish perspective, the Winter War and Continuation War in Finland allowed them to beef up and maintain neutrality ~ while the Finns rebuilt (while rehousing about half a milion refugees, no small thing in a small country).
Taking everything in context, the two great Socialist powers in Europe ~ the Nazis and the Commies ~ sought hegemony. They took many down with them. Only a few succeeded in making it through that period fairly intact in their traditions, customs, laws and geography.
What a stupid thing to say.
It's just a way to say dumb*ss using more words.
----
Send treats to the troops...
Great because you did it!
www.AnySoldier.com
You can't be serious. Two horrible opposing ideologies were fighting each other, that's all. The least worst side won. Franco was no saint, but it would have been far worse for Spain if the commies had won. At the same time the war was going on, Stalin was busy with his show trials and mass executions which totaled in the millions. This is just right after his policy of exterminating millions of Ukrainians through starvation by collectivization.
If the commies would have won, they'd still be uncovering the buried mass graves. As it was the Spanish Civil War killed about one million Spaniards.
> You can’t be serious
I am.
> Franco was no saint, but it would have been far worse for Spain if the commies had won.
And what of the rest of the world? You forget that Spain was Hitler’s dress-rehearsal. That is probably because you are American and there is a good-sized gap between the Spanish Civil War and WW-II. That is because America played hooky during 1939-1941 in the war against Hitler.
For the rest of the world, WW-II began just about the same time as the Spanish Civil War ended. Hitler had his dress-rehearsal in Spain, and he was ready-to-go.
> It’s just a way to say dumb*ss using more words.
What a stupider thing to say.
I can only make judgements about your lack of knowledge and education based on your posts - which certainly support my opinion. We aren’t arguing viewpoints but the fact of Nazism aligned with Communism to take control of Spain. I’ve lived outside the US for enough years to understand and appreciate informed differences in opinion, as well as to recognize ill-informed, willful or not, bombast.
For someone who has proven themselves proudly parochial in their education and information, resides outside the US, resents the US and presumably lives in some part of the world that has had their collective butts saved twice in the 20th century by the US, and owes their national security for the last 70 years to the benevolence of the US and our willingness to expend our wealth and spill our blood protecting you and your ilk - you certainly appear to have an extremely overdeveloped and unjustified delusion of your own wisdom, opinions and personal significance.
> resents the US
I certainly don’t resent the US. Quite the contrary. I don’t have much time for US Jingoism and Triumphalism — few people outside the US do. But so far as it goes, I am about as good a friend as the US can have.
> and presumably lives in some part of the world that has had their collective butts saved twice in the 20th century by the US,
I think the British, Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders contributed more than adequately during both occasions America “saved collective butts” worldwide — it is worth repeating that during both World Wars last century the US played hooky until most of the hard yards had been played by other countries.
Sorry, that’s just how it was: I didn’t write history, I can only report things as they were. The US chose a policy of “splendid isolationism” during both World Wars right up until the point that the enemy could no longer be ignored.
> and owes their national security for the last 70 years to the benevolence of the US and our willingness to expend our wealth and spill our blood protecting you and your ilk
Again, I think the rest of the world has done an adequate job of spilling its own blood and spending its own wealth in the interests of national security.
Don’t think us ungrateful: we are glad of the US and grateful for assistance given. But nobody asked the US to be the world’s policeman. And there are a fair few countries that would prefer that the US didn’t act unilaterally.
> you certainly appear to have an extremely overdeveloped and unjustified delusion of your own wisdom, opinions and personal significance.
Likewise.
Neah. There were no “right” sides in Spain, except maybe the Royalists, but Franco was better than the alternative.
I just saw your reply.
I stand by my statements. If you’re a ‘friend of the US’ - thanks but no thanks.
I think you need to have someone explain ‘jingoism and triumphalism’ - perhaps if you read some history - you pick from: German/English/French/Italian/Russian history. I would also suggest Spanish - but you’ve obviously failed in comprehension on what your already read.
Strange, in all my years in Europe/Asia - I found more jealousy than understanding of the US, what it has and what it does.
I can’t really agree with your solution — San Fran is a lovely city. If we could only change the population? They love the homeless so much perhaps they should all join their ranks — in Berkeley.
> I just saw your reply
Crikey, I had nearly forgotten about you.
> I think you need to have someone explain ‘jingoism and triumphalism’ - perhaps if you read some history - you pick from: German/English/French/Italian/Russian history. I would also suggest Spanish - but you’ve obviously failed in comprehension on what your already read.
Let me guess: you always wanted to be a Grade 9 History teacher but have never been able to fulfill this aspiration? Why is it that many Americans — like yourself — seem to think that us “durn Furriners” who disagree with them are merely ignorant and in need of better education?
Take a re-read of your post — perhaps read it aloud in front of a full-length mirror — and see if it doesn’t come across as arrogant and know-it-all and smarty-pants and patronizing. Because frankly it does.
It is certainly very stereotypically “American”, and it illustrates my point beautifully. Many Americans — like yourself — come across as arrogant, patronizing, smarty-pants, jingoistic, triumphalist know-it-alls and are blinkered to realities that exist outside the “American” experience.
Arising from this, perhaps it is no mystery why a good proportion of this planet is less-than-grateful to America. This might even explain why some folk on this planet are hell-bent on blowing you lot to smithereens at every given opportunity.
Nobody likes to be patronized. And nobody likes a smarty-pants.
> Strange, in all my years in Europe/Asia - I found more jealousy than understanding of the US, what it has and what it does.
I think you’ll find that us “durn furriners” understand America just fine, and that we aren’t one bit jealous.
America does many fine, generous and praiseworthy things, and deserves much more credit than she gets. This is because she often goes and spoils everything by showing off and bragging and skyting about it endlessly.
Nobody likes a skyte. Nobody likes a braggart. And nobody likes a show-off.
Why isn’t Burma allowing American cyclone aid in? It should, and it is damnable that the junta isn’t. Perhaps it is because the junta knows that American aid will come at a high cost that only begins with bragging rights.
> I stand by my statements. If you’re a ‘friend of the US’ - thanks but no thanks.
Luckily for me, not all Americans share your attitude, so it is perfectly OK for me to remain a very good friend of America. Sometimes it is only your best friends who can tell you how things actually are, rather than telling you only what you want to hear.
Sorry, but that is just how it is.
Geez - YOU again.
Take a DEEP breath, open a beer and try to understand: you’re comments come across as a condescending, historically inaccurate and reflecting the insane jealousy of a resident of a country that can’t face the fact there is one, and only one nation that has dominated the world for the last 60 years. I have spent a considerable time outside the US. I met very few successful people with your insecurity and hate. Your attitude reeks of self-recognition of your own impotence and acknowledgement that without the US - you’d be living in a 3rd rate Marxist slum ala Cuba or North Korea.
It is amazing to me that so many of you ‘haters’ would sell your sisters to be able to live in the US. And you complain about our pride in our own accomplishments. We’re the only country in history that has spilt so much of our own blood in the defence of others and DIDN”T build an empire.
We don’t expect or even want your gratitude. It takes self-respect and pride to acknowledge a debt. Clearly something you lack.
We do expect a minimum of intelligence and the ability to understand the difference between Marxist brutal anarchists and someone trying to save their country. This all started because of your ignorance of the history of the Spanish Civil War. I give up. Wallow in your ignorance, self-pity and jealousy, it’s no skin off my nose.
Oh, and by the way, the next some Middle Eastern nutcase threatens your access to oil and takes over your country don’t come whining to the US to save you.
I got all the way thru your bizzarre xenophobic rant before figuring out who you were and what you were on about.
Probably best let’s ditch the discussion because it is getting tiresome.
Next time I’m in SF, I’ll know where to go to take a dump.
I would like to suggest that you keep your sanctimonious gasbaggery in the UK where it can best be contained. We neither need nor want your comments over here. You have more than enough on your own plate with the Muslims taking over. Best you work on that before involving yourself in the United States.
> I would like to suggest that you keep your sanctimonious gasbaggery in the UK where it can best be contained.
You’re alot closer to the UK than I am, genius.
> Best you work on that before involving yourself in the United States.
Best you work on your geography before advising me on what to do with both of the Muslims that live here.
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