Posted on 04/04/2008 5:41:19 AM PDT by longtermmemmory
Greece Blocks Macedonia's NATO Bid
Greece successfully blocked Macedonia's NATO bid03 April 2008 Bucharest _ Macedonia will only receive an invitation to join NATO once the ‘name’ row with Greece is resolved.
"We regret that we were not able to reach consensus to invite Macedonia to join alliance," United States President George Bush said.
" The name issue needs to be resolved quickly so Macedonia can be invited to NATO as soon as possible. NATO looks forward to the day that Macedonia takes its place among members of alliance," he added.
“We encourage negotiations to resume without delay and expect them to conclude as soon as possible,” Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said as he read the final statement.
The alliance’s chief said he understands the disappointment in Macedonia, but also admitted that the summit did not live up to the expectations of many allies.
“I will not hide that I would have hoped to see three invitations,” de Hoop Scheffer said.
Macedonia's bid stumbled because there was no breakthrough on the row between Greece and Macedonia on the 'name' dispute.
Greece had been threatening to veto the invitation if Skopje does not change its country’s name.
Athens opposes to Skopje’s constitutional name “Republic of Macedonia” arguing that it might lead Skopje to make territorial claims over its own northern province, which is also called Macedonia.
“Macedonia will get a NATO invitation after it fulfills all necessary conditions, and that of course includes a resolution in the name dispute,” a senior NATO official told Balkan Insight.
Speculation suggests that as soon as a deal is reached with Greece, Macedonia will receive an invitation to join NATO without any necessary formalities, and there will be no need to organise another NATO Summit.
Leaders from NATO member states had again discussed the issue on Thursday morning.
“The Greek government has been very clear during discussions - that until and unless the name issue is resolved there cannot be consensus, and there cannot be an invitation,” NATO spokesman, James Appathurai NATO spokesperson said on Wednesday evening.
Greek Foreign Minister, Dora Bakoyannis told reporters that “there will be no sufficient time to discuss the name dispute.”
NATO Leaders however lauded the decision to welcome Croatia and Albania into the alliance.
“There was a clear consensus on Albania and Croatia,” Appathurai said.
One minister from a NATO member state told Balkan Insight on the condition of anonymity that "things didn’t happen as we anticipated,” and despite Greek threats of a veto many member states were hoping for a breakthrough in Bucharest.
The State Department was TRYING to neutralize any debate for future discussions by having FYROM join NATO and then have the NATO members forced to accept EU membership.
Given how you have Kosovo, Albania, and FYROM so entrenched in drug running and white slavery it is hard to imagine a more clueless state department stunt.
I will add an additional article since there is NOTHING about this “serving” on the state department in the DBM.
A NATO candidate has been rejected and the Drive By Media is DEAD SILENT.
http://www.sofiaecho.com/article/macedonia-s-hopes-for-nato-invitation-fading-fast/id_28538/catid_66
Photo: ReutersLeaders of 26 members states of Nato, who descended on Bucharest for the alliance’s three-day summit on April 2, have agreed to extend invitations to join the organisation to Albania and Croatia, but were yet to reach agreement on Macedonia’s application.
Talks on the issue would continue on April 3, Nato spokesperson James Appathurai told reporters at a media briefing.
Greece has threatened to veto Macedonia’s bid over the name dispute with Skopje. Greece refuses to accept its neighbour’s constitutional name, saying Macedonia is the name of Northern Greece and that having Skopje use it is indicative of its implicit territorial claims over the northern Greek province. The alliance uses the consensus principle, meaning that no decision can be made unless all member states are in agreement.
“The invitation will be postponed,” one European Nato diplomat told Reuters.
Doing so would fuel radical feelings in the country and destabilise the region, Albania’s prime minister Sali Berisha said. “The stability of this neighbor is very crucial for Albania, for Kosovo, for Greece, to Bulgaria, to all its neighbors. My fear is that radicals from all ethnicities there could be strengthened,” he told Reuters.
A possible solution would be to extend a conditional invitation, pending the resolution of talks between Skopje and Athens, a British source familiar with the talks told Romanian-language news agency Newsin.
Georgia and Ukraine, two more countries hoping to secure membership action plans, the first step towards Nato membership, were unlikely to be successful, Reuters said.
Germany remains opposed to offer such roadmaps to the two former Soviet republics, considering them unprepared, despite strong lobbying from the US. Russia is also strongly against what it sees as an encroachment of its traditional sphere of influence.
ping for news the MSM refuses to cover
Nothing could be pettier or more stupid.
If Macedonia renamed itself "The REAL America" would the US refuse them a NATO bid?
Not on that basis.
You are dead wrong on this issue.
It is akin to Canada renaming itself into “United States of America” and then claiming all of the 50 states as part of their history and stating George Washinton was REALLY part of the renamed United States. In fact the then renamed “Canadian” USA would state Washington DC is occuping THEIR territory.
This is NOT a minor issue. This for those who don’t know history, was a USSR stunt to claim the Gree Macedonian region for a warm water port on the Mediteranian.
You have a fake history, coupled with a fake alphabet, an now the fools who are too stupid to realize they have been raised with a communist propaganda ploy destabalizing the region.
It is really simply, the Vardarska people want a national identity? they should stick to their slavic heritage and leave Greek history out of their blood bath.
(1) The government of Macedonia is not claiming that Greek Macedonia is part of their territory.
(2) Members of NATO cannot assert territorial claims against other member states anyway, and any member state who commits acts of military aggression against a member state loses its NATO status and is automatically in a state of war with every remaining NATO member state.
The surest way of preventing any future Macedonian government from attempting any aggression against Greece is to make them part of NATO.
You are joking of course? Sometimes I think the purpose of the US Military is to counter the underhanded sabotage the US State Department carries out. The enemy within is as dangerous as the one outside.
Of course not.
If Macedonia truly wanted to lay claim to Greek territory, they would not join NATO, because NATO would not countenance one member state committing aggression against another member state.
The fact is that Macedonia is much more interested in EU membership and NATO membership than in a region of Greece that has less than a 3% population of its ethnic group.
Greece wants to have it both ways: it votes for Albania to become a NATO member, but it adopts Russia's line on Serbian matters while also opposing Russia's line on Macedonia.
There are far more Albanian-speaking Greeks than there are Vardarska-speaking Greeks.
(1) they are via the manipulation of a fake “ethinic victimology”
(2) keep dreaming, nato members DO assert territorial claims. Turkey and Greece have been playing cat and mouse over sea and air incursions for years. Islands are claimed by turkey as too close their their shores.
CYPRUS is occupied by a NATO member. Only the Republic of Cyprus is recognized internationally and the northiner part is deemed “occupied”. This has even been litigated in US Courts when issues of the ownership of antiquities looted in the norther areas reach the USA. (see Kanakaria Mosaics as one famous case)
Macedonia is part of Greece.
The way to stabalize the area with the largest military in the region to the south is for the Vardarskas to return to their own name and drop the ethnic fiction.
THAT will stabalize the region not this BS grab.
a french map is your pathetic best effort? save it. It is not even a political map if the limited french serves. It seems to be a “point of view of Bulgarians”. Has nothing to do with this issue. In fact, the term macedonian does not even appear in the legend! This was you best evidence? NOT!
even so the post 1921 Greek independence era still had macedonia as part of Greece, never has changed. The vardarskas were to the north.
Tito created the ethnic fiction and this BS needs to stop.
All the writings of Alexander and the Macedonian region were and are greek.
The Skopians are creating an ethinic fiction in a step to self rule ploys. Why not just call AZLTAN real in california, that is a fake state based on an “ethnic claim”
Pella is the seat of Macedonia where King Philip Ruled where Alexander Ruled.
Larisa to the south is where Alexander went to buy horses for his early armies.
When the Germans crossed the norther border of Greece they crossed INTO Macedonia through the Vardarska territory.
The NATO bid is dead, the EU bid is dead, until the name is changed.
They can join both, just drop the USSR propaganda.
actually FYROM is part of the whole state department kosovo fiasco.
This was an attempt to end run the potential of Greek and Bulgarian vetos via a NATO membership.
It failed the USA looks more like the bufoons of the balkans.
Which writings of Alexander are you referring to?
Can you name some Macedonian texts from the classical period?
Not it's not a political map. The point is it is a old map. A map of the ethnograpic situation in the Ottoman province of Macedonia (The only Macedonia in recent - like the last millenium - history) before the land grab by the FOPOG in the aftermath of WWI
And Spain and England have an ongoing feud over Gibraltar, and Italy and Austria have boundary issues, and England and France have had disputes over channel islands, etc.
But there has not even been a single skirmish resulting in casualties over any of these disputes. Why might that be? The NATO treaty perhaps?
CYPRUS is occupied by a NATO member.
While both Greece and Turkey have tried to annex it, Cyprus is an independent country which is not the territory of any NATO member. And Cyprus itself, as an independent republic, is not a NATO member but a formal member of the Non-Aligned Movement.
So any dispute over Cyprus is external to NATO.
save the slavic propaganda for your communist rally.
all nonsensical straw men.
bottom line. No NATO membership, No EU membership.
the name has to be changed.
the end.
that is always been an issue of geography.
however given the oil reserves in the Aegean and the fact the something like 30-40% of the shipping is still owned by Greeks, they have the “soft power” to press this issue promoted by the land locked nation.
It is also worth noting that the largest trading partner of FYROM is Greece. (Greece’s phone company OTE built the FYROM phone system)
Money talks BS walks.
(it also helps to have the largest army in the region)
Overall this will be good news because it nips the state department chess playing and puts a more realistic effort on UN Envoy Nimitz’s complete and utter cluelessness on this “negotiation” effort of his.
FYI: Such an initiative would have been vetted through the interagency process [including DOD] and the NSC. Calling this a "clueless state department stunt" is pure stupidity and demonstrates how little you know about how the foreign policy of this country is formulated and implemented.
So no luck with finding the name, let alone a link, to any of Alexander's writings?
all nonsensical straw men.
OK. So know we know two things: you believe that Alexander wrote texts in Greek but you have no idea what those texts were, and you also have no idea what the term "straw man argument" means.
bottom line. No NATO membership, No EU membership. the name has to be changed. the end.
It's not the end of anything. But it may be the beginning of a reevaluation of Greece's usefulness as a member of NATO.
suuuuuure.
Condi Rice was deposed from the state department leadership.
GWBush controls nothing.
Rice was exiled into pointless middle east negotiation to keep her out of the way.
You are confusing paper with reality. The reality is you have left over hacks from teh USSR days asserting their “vision” for the balkan states.
Much of this incompetence goes back years and staffers who worked the cold war era. Their inteligence reports speak for themselves on their lack of reliability and quality.
The buck may stop at the WH but the deck given to the white house was incomplete at best.
Regardless, the WH better do something subtantive to save face or the state department incompetence will, you say, visit upon him.
Perhaps the saudis can give some more donation money to help prop up an new moslem breakaway state in the region.
Can you name some other NATO members that refer to the Republic of Macdonia as FYROM other than Greece? This is a tempest in a teapot. The Greeks need to grow up.
I will not be dragged into a staw man nonsense.
I have been to pella and have spent enough time in university studies.
you quaint hissy fit over value of nato membership demonstrates the fact you don’t know about the value of the larges mediteranian navy, stategic airbases, listening posts on any of the thousands of islands, or largest manned army. (probably larger than the french but that is not saying much.)
Of course the french have not provided much of a Nato presence in over a decade plus.
and yes it is.
the conference ended.
today the other two candidates are being welcomed in, actually probably done given the seven hour time difference.
FYROM is going home with nothing but assurances they can’t BS the name issue any more.
again the veto stuck.
all of them.
in the UN, EU, and Nato, with the INCLUSION of the USA, it is all FYROM on official documents.
The state department want to use the Nato manuver as an end run to achieve EU memmbership without the name debate veto.
That ploy is dead.
No confusion here. I spent 28 years as a Foreign Service Officer, including three years in Athens [1992-95]. I am quite familiar with this contretemps about FYROM by the Greek government. Greece is the odd man out on this issue. The acceptance of the name, Republic of Macedonia, is virtually universal including in every international organization. The more obstructionist the Greeks become, the more they isolate themselves.
The are the odd man out with the ecconomic, shipping and military cards.
The Veto stands.
You also have the american citizens of hellenic decent. The largest democrat AND republican contributors in california are both of hellenic decent.
You have multitude of associations for whom this is a question for their congressman. (see also the Hellenic Caucus)
I am sure you had fun in you three years in Greece. but those years long ago do not change anything on April 3, 2008.
Yes, I had lots of fun in Greece and still have friends there. The Macedonia issue is a blind spot resulting from an emotional response, not a logical one. The Greeks have been able to perpetuate this nonsense because of the voting rules within these international/multinational organizations that give them a veto. It can't continue without a backlash.
Macedonians have always had Greek names, toponyms, customs, traditions, heroes, gods, dialects, etc.
They were among those who spread the Greek language and Civilization to the World. Macedonians named ALL the cities they built or renamed after Greek names.
Apparently because Macedonians have always been Greeks. Those who live in that region now should be grateful they have even have it one, -— and second should be proud to name themselves after what they are: Slavic Skopjeans instead of usurping a name that does not belong to them except in the delusional and destructive minds of past communist leaders.
Georgians have always had Georgian names, toponyms, customs, traditions, heroes, gods, dialects, etc.
Yet there are millions of Americans, concentrated mostly in one region of the American South, who - despite having almost zero Georgian ancestry - insist on calling themselves Georgians and calling their territory "Georgia."
For this reason, the real Georgia should refuse to join NATO or the EU until these American impostors change the name.
Something has clearly got to be done about the country calling itself Georgia. I suggest that they change the name to Massachusetts or Hawaii.
Actually, I'm open to suggestions. LOL
Irrelevant nonsense.
As usual.
I agree. Grownups whining about names when continental security is at stake is indeed irrlevant nonsense.
Greece needs to stop playing the child or the foool and man up.
For this reason, the real Georgia should refuse to join NATO or the EU until these American impostors change the name.
"The Former English Colony of Georgia" has a nice sound to it.
Great.
Any luck with a link to some of Alexander's writings? I'd love to read some of his stuff.
The only fool is the one who does not understand the background of this issue and ramifications of such an acceptance.
Then again there are those who care only for continuing the legacy of dead dictators like Tito.
I suggest that you fall into both categories.
What are the ramifications?
That Macedonia enters NATO as a ruse in order to lull Greece into complacency and then attacks Greece and seizes Macedonia while the rest of NATO sits back and watches, afraid of Macedonia's terrible might?
That's fantasy.
I totally agree... So petty
The comparison between the two Georgia’s is idiotic. They aren’t geographically right next to each other. That plays a huge part, it’s not like one can claim the other’s ports or cities, or they can but they have a long way to invade.
And that one poster that keeps asking for Alexendros writing’s is annoying. Most writings of that time were done in Greek as it was the lingua franca of the ancient world.
How would Americans living in Texas or California feel if Mexico started publishing maps that included those states as Mexican territory?
“Idiotic” and “Annoying” is too gentle a way to describe the Georgia and Alexandros remark.
More like silly nonsense.
Anyone who feels their homeland is threatened by outside forces will react in similar fashion as Greece has, and we don't have to look any further then our boarders in this regards i.e. Mexican illegal immigration and the Atzlan Agenda
‘Now what that budget is we are not informed, but the Greeks, who spend annually 1,300,000f on their Macedonian schools pretend that it is already largely in excess of the their outlay especially as it is fed by the financial help sent by wealthy Slav committees of Moscow and St. Petersburg. "If we can only isolate the Greeks of Macedonia from those of Thessaly," continues the pamphlet, "if we can keep the Greek propaganda out of Western and Southern districts we are sure of success. If they be ours, no one can dispute our entire supremacy in Macedonia."'
Now why did the Slav committees of Moscow and St. Petersburg claim they can have entire supremacy in Macedonia if they can "isolate the Greeks of Macedonia from those of Thessaly" - in other words Slavophone the Greeks in Macedonia.
From that same article it is states what the Macedonian issue meant for the Greeks and Bulgarians. It claims that for the Greeks, the Macedonian issue meant essential and indispensable condition to their unity, and in other hands other then theirs, their 'race' is broken into fragments which can never be united.
“For the Bulgarians her possession means an outlet to her trade toward the Mediterranean, a way, of escape from their confinement within the closed basin of the Euxine; for the Greeks, that possession is the one essential and indispensable condition to their unity, and in other hands than theirs, their race is broken into two fragments which can never be united, so that Hellenism, mutilated and imprisoned at the extremity of the peninsula, must renounce all hope of ever that development of population by aloes can be attained those high destinies which are aspired to by the native Greek people.”
Elimeia ca. 500-475 BC Doric the temples of Athena in Megara
Aiane ca. 500-475 BC Apakos hapax with letter (ϟ) qoppa
Aiane ca. 500-450 BC Kleiona hapax
Pella ca. 500-450 BC Pythagores of Aristokrates , Aristobole
Aigai early 5th c.BC Peperias hapax
Eordea early 5th BC of Machatas (never attested as Magatas)
Aiane early 5th BC ..I am -alios of Dolio-.. Doric ἐμὶ emi Attic εἰμί emi but Attic τῆς tês instead of Doric τᾶς tâs
Aiane ca. 450 BC wools of Arkaps (Arkapos) hapax
Aiane ca. 450-400 BC Attya hapax
Aiane 5th c. BC Themis (gen. Themidos)
Aigai ca. 430-420 BC Argive Doric I am the prize from Argive Hera (Royal tomb)[32]
Aigai late 5th c. BC He loves _ _ina
Pella ca. 400 BC Xanthos son of Demetrios and Amadika (attested also as Ammadika and Ammadikos only in Macedon)
Pella late 5th/early 4th c. BC Zôbia (epitaph) (oldest evidence of this rare name)
Pella late 5th/early 4th c. BC Eugeneia daughter of Xenon (epitaph)
Pella late 5th/early 4th c. BC Xenariste of Boula_ _ _ (epitaph)
Aigai late 5th/early 4th c. BC here Kallim- ..of well-pillared temples (eustyloi naoi) .. of esteemed father...art.. Callimachus (sculptor)
Pella late 5th/early 4th c. BC I lay here dead, my homeland is Corinth , servant of Enodia , with name Timarete
Dion late 5th/early 4th c. BC Aristotima, Sôsos
Dion late 5th c. BC Theotimos of Parmenon
Pella ca. 400-350 BC Dexios from Herakleion
Beroea ca. 400-350 BC Andreas of Andron from Osbe
Pella Katadesmos-ca. 380-350 BC Dagina hapax
Aigai ca. 350 BC Berennô of Philistos Epitaphs)(Berennô hapaxHarpalus Peukolaos Sillis ,firstly attested in Macedon)
Aigai ca. 350 BC Harpalos of Peucolaos (Epitaphs)(Berennô hapaxHarpalus Peukolaos Sillis ,firstly attested in Macedon)
Aigai ca. 350 BC Sillis(Epitaphs)(Berennô hapaxHarpalus Peukolaos Sillis ,firstly attested in Macedon)
Macedonian words in epigraphy & onomasticon(all are in Greek)
Macedonian words in epigraphy & onomasticon: the earliest massive epigraphical documents are, the second Athenian alliance decree with Perdiccas II (~417-413 BC), the decree of Kalindoia,~335-300 BC) and seven curse tablets of the 4th c.BC bearing mostly names[33][34].
Greek Personal Names: Their Value as Evidence [5] by Simon Hornblower, Elaine Matthews
Bila Brateadou (Attic Phile , Doric Phila Prateadou or Phrateadou (Aigai ca. 350-300 BC[36].
Phylomaga (Attic Phylomache) (Methone,Pieria ca. 350-300 BC)[37].
Lamaga , Laomaga (Attic Laomache)- Beroia — ca. 150-100 BC Laomaga[38]
Lamaga , Laomaga (Attic Laomache) - Pydna early 2nd c. BC Lamaga[38]
It is now FIVE DAYS since the rejection of the FYROM state from NATO.
NOT ONE STORY in the General Media.
NOT ONE DBM story to even touch on the issue.
Just irresponsible nonsense about ignorant presidential candidates, and meaningless purient stories.
Interesting.
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