I believe I'll have another beer.
Posted on 04/07/2008 10:12:03 AM PDT by Steve Schulin
The term conservative originated back in the days when folks were trying to "conserve the monarchy" -- that is, to keep kings in their place against the onslaught of democratic tide like the French Revolution. Lots of folks in the USA consider themselves conservatives today, but they have no interest in conserving any monarchy. So the definition of conservative has changed.
The single most important factor in US conservativism in recent years, as best I can tell, is a desire for smaller role of federal government than currently exists. But I'm not the guy who gets to define what conservatism is. A popular way to think about conservative voters today is the "three-leg" model: national defense conservatives, economic conservatives, and social conservatives.
A complicating matter in defining conservatism is the use of the term conservative in the specific context of describing part of the continuum spanning from reactionary to radical. In this context, conservatives are those who hold significant general presumption against change.
Here's how one of the leading candidates for Libertarian Party nomination for President this year defines conservatives:
"We real libertarians have a challenge," Phillies said. "Some conservatives pretend to be Libertarians. Fifty years ago, conservatives claimed states had a right to keep persons of color from voting. Conservatives were wrong. Now, conservatives claim states have a right to keep women from having abortions. That claim is the same old racist Jim-Crow states' rights doctrine. It's still wrong. Our Constitution's 14th Amendment makes things crystal clear. If Congress isn't allowed to do it, neither are individual states."
Mr. Phillies continues: "[D]on't let conservatives take over our party. America already has two conservative parties, Republican and Constitution. We shouldn't become the third."
I thoroughly disagree with Mr. Phillies' equating of those opposed to abortion with those who adopted Jim Crow laws. It seems to me that one can be a libertarian and still consider abortion to be murder, and thus the just subject of criminality. And that one thinks that states are the proper level of government to adopt laws against murder, rather than federal, does not make one a Jim Crow kind of advocate.
One of the things I like about the Constitution Party is the pro-life plank in their platform. And Alan Keyes is one of the most eloquent advocates against abortion I've ever heard. As a debate coach at The Catholic University of America in the late 1970s, it was my pleasure to work daily with students who advocated against legalized abortion at debate tournaments across the country, week after week. These kids were good. Keyes would have been a good addition to the team, just as he will be, if you and I help elect him, a great President. The Keyes campaignwebsite -- alankeyes.com -- has a lot of archived speeches of his, and I hope you'll watch and listen to a bunch of them, so that you too can stand against the "culture of death", of which the so-called "pro-choice" movement is a part. A hugely tragic part.
“What do conservatives believe these days?”
Depends on who you mean by “conservatives.”
“Conservatives” voting for Juan McCain appear to believe in, well not much of anything except continuing ad nauseum a war that we should have never been involved in. Take away the Iraq war and McCain loses this election by 15 points....hell, he’d never have been nominated.
If by “Conservative” you mean those who believe the following;
Strong borders
Anti-abortion
Low taxes
Global Warming is a myth
The U.S. Constitution, every damned word of it, means what it says.
That less power in the hands of government, means more power in the hands of the people and that it is a good thing....
Then you are by and large on the right track.
Being conservative Damned sure doesn’t mean picking up Clinton and Obama democrats and trying to equate them to Reagan democrats.
Unfortunately, this will never happen until after the next Revolution.
“75% of the money spent by the Federal government, RIGHT NOW, is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Illegal. Eliminate that spending, and we’ll have more than enough for Iraq plus generous, sweeping tax cuts.”
I don’t want another dime or drop of American blood spilt for Iraq. The entire population of that nation is not worth ONE United States Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine.
Well, if you include leftists like Bush and MacCain in your definition of conservative, then damn near anything.
If we pull out of Iraq right now, all hell will break loose in the Middle East. Our economy cannot handle that right now. Gas prices would skyrocket, thus bringing consumer spending to a dead halt; not to mention a civil war between Iran and the Wahhabi sect of Islam. Do we want the House of Saud or Bin Laden running Saudi? You'll get the latter if we pull out.
Don’t worry, Mr. Phillies. I want nothing to do with the Libertarian party.
You should work for Obama.
I fail to see any factual support for the premises your conclusions are based on.
I believe I'll have another beer.
Who was guilty of this?
Fifty years ago, conservatives claimed states had a right to keep persons of color from voting.
The democrats were the real cluprits when it came to keeping blacks down. They ruled the south until the mid-sixties.
I don’t remember any Republicans supporting the blocking of the Blacks right to vote.
Wallace? Fulbright? These were Democrats during the school integration days. It wasn’t Republicans driving that stuff.
As a Conservative, I believe we’re screwed.
The GOP is the part of the not-quite-as-left-as-the-Democrats.
The top 50% of income earners pay 96%+ of the taxes, but they only have half the vote - guess what the other 50% are voting for?
Going after an enemy who murdered American citizens on American soil with all the force at our disposal is considered overreacting.
We’re relying on illegal immigration to replace the population we murdered in abortion factories.
You get the idea.
I don’t know if global warming is real or not, but I can’t see why it would be a bad thing...
You are absolutely correct. But WE are. Iraq is one piece to the ME puzzle. The US is threatened as long as Islamic despots rule countries with huge deposits of oil. We HAVE to defeat them and replace them with democracies friendly to us and committed to the welfare of their people and commerce. It is in OUR interests, and NO ONE ELSE ON EARTH can or will do this.
WE ARE WORTH IT. IT IS ABOUT US. NEVER FORGET THAT.
A libertarian making a juvenile, illogical, poorly-argued statement? Who'd have thought?
Thanks,
We have a winner.
The title “Conservative” is just an overused and worn out word. It doesn’t mean anything because its “meaning” keeps changing.
I guess if you take the classical sense of the word and apply it to the current political / social environment of the US it is in fact the “liberals” (another meaningless title) that are the “conservatives”. It is they who fight to maintain the status quo of socialism in america. It is they who work to further consolidate power in the established authority of the massive governmental organizations.
Where does that leave the people like me who were once described by the transitory titles and meanings of words like conservative and republican? Heh... Ive been wondering where that leaves me. Of late, it seems it leaves me no where. Which is fine by me I guess, except for the fact that whichever party wins this election the results will be the same. More governmental spending, more regulations, more fee’s, more taxes, less freedom.
Do I think a third party will ever ever be able to overpower the socialist parties of america (Democrat / Republican)? Only in my dreams...
Words lose their meaning all the time, it just happens as time goes by and things change. What troubles me is when certain concepts lose their meaning to a population. Concepts like limited government, Freedom and liberty. People in this country have no concept of what these are any longer. The meaning of the words used to describe those concepts have changed.
People think freedom is the choice to abort a baby or not. The choice between Burger king or mc donalds. or the choice of where to spend their welfare check.
People think limited government means a $600 dollar tax refund or a $3.5 trillion new social spending program as opposed to a $3.9 trillion new social spending program.
Ive come to the conclusion that most of the people in this country do not deserve the freedom that was intended them. They have not done the work to maintain it, nor have they even cared to try.
Id like to think I was callus enough to take some pleasure with the suffering of my neighbors and fellow citizens at the hands of the monster they created through their ignorance and apathy. Heh.. If only I could be that cold. Im not though, Ill probably die still regretful that I couldn’t do a thing to turn this train wreck around.
There's about eight months between now and election day. Lots can happen between now and then, even though the dominant parties are complacent at least at the prospects of keeping their one-two positions.
“You should work for Obama.”
He wouldn’t like me much, I am a conservative and a Christian. He is a liberal and (I believe) a Muslim.
“Iraq is one piece to the ME puzzle. The US is threatened as long as Islamic despots rule countries with huge deposits of oil.”
So McBoob was correct the first time. It really WILL be a 100 year war. At least.
Maryland “Freak State” PING!
He shares your stance on the war.
“He shares your stance on the war.”
By your very logic, Joe Liebermann is a rock-ribbed, dyed-in-the-wool conservative.
This conservative believes in nationalism. The enemies of nationalism are the NWO folk, who believe in a socialistic form of globalism, centralized unelected bureaucratic government, and whose religion is a politically correct form of secular humanism, all of which I do not believe and totally reject.
He is when it comes to the war.
“He is when it comes to the war.”
No, he is a pro-war socialist and you know it. At least, you should.
With all due respect there is a divergence of opinion on whether the Iraq War is something that conservatives should support.
I realize that 90% or more of Freepers believe that the Iraq War is something that all conservatives MUST support in order to call themselves conservative, but that doesn't mean they are all right.
War is always an evil. Sometimes it is a necessary evil. No one has proven to me that the Iraq War was necessary. The more I find out, the less necessary it appears.
And no I am not for cutting and running. We f**ked up Iraq good and hard and we need to stay there until we have unf**ked it up, if that is possible.
Basically I agree with Pat Buchanan. And I guess that makes me a looney or an anti-semite or a liberal or a traitor or a scum-sucking bastard.
So be it.
I would rather be with Pat Buchanan, William F. Buckley, Jr., Russell Kirk, and G. K. Chesterton than with those who have allowed themselves to go temporarily insane after having to spend years convincing themselves that Bush was a conservative, Tom Delay was an honorable man, and Rumsfeld was a military genius.
“I realize that 90% or more of Freepers believe that the Iraq War is something that all conservatives MUST support in order to call themselves conservative, but that doesn’t mean they are all right.”
Well said. Very well said.
I digress. That whole post was a thing of beauty, not just the part that I quoted in my previous post. Thank you sir.
There can be a difference of opinion on most any topic. But it is quite interesting that the left has been anti-war for some time - long before I saw anyone on FR claiming that they were.
No one has proven to me that the Iraq War was necessary.
Then clearly, no amount of reporting on Saddam's involvement with terrorists will convince you.
Basically I agree with Pat Buchanan. And I guess that makes me a looney or an anti-semite or a liberal or a traitor or a scum-sucking bastard.
I'd agree with the first one and possibly the second. I won't go so far as to agree with the last three.
Honey, next time actually read what I post. I said Lieberman was a conservative WHEN IT COMES TO THE WAR. I didn't say he was in any other way.
Geez.
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