Posted on 04/11/2008 5:21:43 PM PDT by hanfei
(March 10, 2007) Mar. 23, 2007 update: The New York Times directly takes on polygamy in its home city. Nina Bernstein writes in "In Secret, Polygamy Follows Africans to N.Y." that
Polygamy in America, outlawed in every state but rarely prosecuted, has long been associated with Mormon splinter groups out West, not immigrants in New York. But a fatal fire in a row house in the Bronx on March 7 revealed its presence here, in a world very different from the suburban Utah setting of "Big Love," the HBO series about polygamists next door.
The city's mourning for the dead a woman and nine children in two families from Mali has been followed by a hushed double take at the domestic arrangements described by relatives: Moussa Magassa, the Mali-born American citizen who owned the house and was the father of five children who perished, had two wives in the home, on different floors. Both survived.
No one knows how prevalent polygamy is in New York. Those who practice it have cause to keep it secret: under immigration law, polygamy is grounds for exclusion from the United States. Under state law, bigamy can be punished by up to four years in prison. No agency is known to collect data on polygamous unions, which typically take shape over time and under the radar, often with religious ceremonies overseas and a visitor's visa for the wife, arranged by other relatives. Some men have one wife in the United States and others abroad.
But the Magassas clearly are not an isolated case. Immigration to New York and other American cities has soared from places where polygamy is lawful and widespread, especially from West African countries like Mali, where demographic surveys show that 43 percent of women are in polygamous marriages.
And the picture that emerges from dozens of interviews with African immigrants, officials and scholars of polygamy is of a clandestine practice that probably involves thousands of New Yorkers. …
Don't-ask-don't-know policies prevail in many agencies that deal with immigrant families in New York, perhaps because there is no framework for addressing polygamy in a city that prides itself on tolerance of religious, cultural and sexual differences and on support for human rights and equality.
… stories of polygamy, New York style, are typically shared by women only in whispered conversations in laundries and at hair-braiding salons. With no legal immigration status and no right to asylum from polygamy, many are afraid to expose their husbands to arrest or deportation, which could dishonor and impoverish their families here and in Africa.
In sum, this report suggests, polygamy is in New York by the thousands, it causes much suffering, but no one has the will to take it on. Mar. 7, 2008 update: In a one-year update on the surviving family members, the New York Times again blithely accepts polygamy, reporting that Moussa Magassa, 46, the father of five children who died in the fire, said in an interview that "his family has grown since the fire: Two wives recently gave birth, one to twins." The reporter, Timothy Williams, notes delicately only that Magassa "is from Mali, where polygamy is legal and widespread." The New York Post causally provides the eye-popping information (in the caption to a picture) that Magassa has taken a third wife: "Moussa Magassa now has nine children with his wives, Aisse, Manthia and Niekale."
Comment: I wonder if Magassa trekked back to Mali to marry Niekale or whether he "married" her in the United States. If the latter, he is as liable to charges of polygamy as any Mormon fundamentalist, but something tells me, much less likely to have the law after him.
Taxpayer subsidies for UK harems: According to a sensationalist story by Nigel Nelson in The People, "Have a Harem: Geta Handout," it's not just Inland Revenue but other government agencies that recognize polygamous marriages. He finds that the British taxpayer spends £5m a year on polygamous immigrants who bring harems into the country for such benefits as jobseekers' allowances, housing benefits, and council tax relief. Their children can claim child benefits and family tax credits. For example, as Nelson colorfully puts it, "The exhausted husband also gets a Jobseeker's Allowance of £90.10 a week for himself and his first wife. Extra wives get £32.65 each." The Welfare Minister, Philip Hunt, is quoted acknowledging that "British law recognises those marriages. Income-related benefits can be paid for more than one wife." (November 12, 2006) May 28, 2007 update: The Times (London) follows up with more information: The Department for Work and Pensions estimates there are "fewer than 1,000 valid polygamous marriages in the UK, few of whom are claiming a state benefit." Here's how it works:
Britain does recognise polygamous marriages that have taken place in countries where the custom is legal, such as Pakistan, Nigeria and India. The Home Office said that multiple wives in polygamous marriages may be allowed into the country as students or tourists. Officials are advised to let extra wives into Britain even if they suspect that a husband is trying to cheat the system by getting bogus divorces. "Entry clearance may not be withheld from a second wife where the husband has divorced his previous wife and the divorce is thought to be one of convenience," an immigration rulebook advises. "This is so, even if the husband is still living with the previous wife and to issue the entry clearance would lead to the formation of a polygamous household." …
A husband may claim housing benefit for each wife even if she is abroad, for up to 52 weeks, as long as the absence is temporary and for pressing reasons. In a draft Commons reply released under the Freedom of Information Act, officials explained another way in which the system made it easy to receive handouts. "A polygamous marriage is the only circumstance in which an adult dependency increase is payable in income-related benefits," it stated. "In any other circumstances an adult ‘dependent' would have to make a separate claim."
To calculate the amount of income support that is payable to an extra wife, officials subtract the rate paid to an individual from that paid to a couple. This produces the amount that a cohabiting spouse is deemed to need in social security benefits. If a man lives with two valid wives, his household is paid the rate for a couple, plus an amount for the extra spouse, the documents show.
Tax credits for UK harems: The paymaster general of the Treasury, Dawn Primarolo, gave this reply at a parliamentary inquiry:
Azouz Begag, French minister for promoting the equalty of opportunity.
Where a man and a woman are married under a law which permits polygamy, and either of them has an additional spouse, the Tax Credits (Polygamous Marriages) Regulations 2003 allow them to claim tax credits as a polygamous unit. It is only those in legal polygamous unions who are covered by these regulations and there is no provision for those in less formal arrangements to claim as a polygamous unit.
(December 2, 2005)
Accepting polygamy in France: Azouz Begag, French minister for promoting the equalty of opportunity (yes, such a position exists) laconically addressed the issue of polygamy by saying that the country "could find a way to live with it." (September 9, 2005)
No inheritance tax in UK for polygamous wives: Nicholas Hellen, "Muslim second wives may get a tax break" provides rich details, which I feel compelled to quote at length so as not to lose their texture:
The Inland Revenue is considering recognising polygamy for some religious groups for tax purposes. Officials have agreed to examine "family friendly" representations from Muslims who take up to four wives under sharia, the laws derived from the Koran. Existing rules allow only one wife for inheritance tax purposes. The Revenue has been asked to relax this so that a husband's estate can be divided tax-free between several wives.
The move is bound to create controversy if it leads to a change in the rules. It is seen as a breakthrough by Muslim leaders who have been campaigning to incorporate sharia into British domestic law. Ahmad Thomson, of the Association of Muslim Lawyers, said: "Wives and immediate children should be exempt from inheritance tax. If the government is family friendly they should change a tax which is unfairly hitting minority religious values."
Any concession by the Revenue could open a wider debate about the legality of plural marriages. At present a person married to more than one people can be charged with bigamy. Muslim marriages to second, third and fourth wives are not valid in civil law, with the women effectively regarded as mistresses with no legal or tax rights.
However, some official bodies have already pointed out that tax laws are unfavourable to religious groups that recognise more than one spouse. The National Audit Office (NAO) recently concluded that the tax system inadvertently penalised devout Muslims. An NAO inquiry into inheritance laws found that devout Muslims were not able to take full advantage of British tax law, which allows spouses to inherit an entire estate from their husband or wife tax free. …
Sadiq Khan, a leading Muslim politician, said: "I am pleased to see the Inland Revenue applying common sense to the application of Islamic law on uncontroversial matters such as inheritance. There are some other uncontroversial areas of Islam law which could easily be applied to the legal system we have in the UK." …
Gordon Brown, the chancellor, has already made one significant concession to adapt to the dictates of sharia. In the 2003 Finance Act he spared Muslims from paying stamp duty twice on their properties when they took out "Islamic mortgages" that complied with the sharia ban on paying interest. The Islamic mortgages involve the lender buying the house — ownership is transferred to the purchaser only at the end of the repayment period.
In a totally startling development, perhaps what most stands out is the idea that polygamy is already deemed "uncontroversial." (December 26, 2004)
It certainly followed one man and spawned Barack Obama.
We read on the thread about Exorcism that God sometimes forces the devil to tell the truth. Apparently so
As long as the women consent to the marriages, no harm, no foul. It should only be illegal when the women involved are forced.
Heard a report that the LDS cult busted in TX, which sprang from the original in Utah and Arizona, gets around the law against polygamy by having a man only legally marry one woman, but “spiritually” marry the others.
Incidentally, all the “spiritual” wives can qualify for welfare as single parents then, and many are collecting welfare in Utah and Arizona, a bonus for the sires. Texas is less generous, so I don’t know if they have collected welfare here.
My wife would never let me have a harem.
Only whites? Well, I do declare! Nice of you to lay out these racial law ideals for us. Thanks for making your fellow conservatives look like racist jerks.
long as there are plenty of Asian honies I’m all set to go. Throw a few latinos in there and I’ll be gold.
How about if they all go on the public dole?
Barney Frank I’m sure is outraged somewhere over your statement
Barney Frank is a Communist.
Some men have one wife in the United States and others abroad.
Like Hussein Obamas daddy?
Well, considering I’m for ending welfare entirely, that’s not really an issue with me.
She is no Conservative. Conservatives look at the individual, they don't go putting people in boxes based on some stereotype. Nope, leftist/racist troll. Probably from Rev Wright's church.
bookmarked
I guess my question would be "Why is this occurring?" We have nothing in common with these Africans, as opposed to American blacks who we share a common language, history, and culture with. Why let them into the country at all?
Much like Marxism, having 7 wives sounds good in theory, but it doesn’t work in the real world...
Seems like a great idea until you have 7 angry women nagging you about stuff instead of just one.
I’m against such arrangements, but it’s a better situation than having people sleep around, fathering children out of wedlock, with multiple women.
Is there a way we can ban those people from the US?
I don’t mind polygamy as long as the women are of legal and proper age and are not forced to join. There should also be a limit on how many wifes you can have.
The problem with much modern polygamy is that it is a cult of incest, rape, usually involving under-age girls to satisfy some power struggle that the man is having. It can be very sick(Even if he might take a skeptical view of any believing Christian, Kraukauer’s Under The Banner of Heaven is a revealing look at modern polygamy) and demoralizing. The funny thing about polygamy is that its history parallels that of homosexual marriage except back then a Massachusetts supreme court didn’t make it legal.
If there's two things I hate, it's closed minded people who are intolerant of other cultures, and the DUTCH!
You know I have argued that there is no BIBLICAL prohibition against having more than one wife.
I have studied the Bible for years and can find no verse that says that a man must have only one wife (who is not a minister).
Joe -
You know I have argued that there is no BIBLICAL prohibition against having more than one wife.
I have studied the Bible for years and can find no verse that says that a man must have only one wife (who is not a minister).
Joe -
>>but it’s a better situation than having people
>>sleep around, fathering children out of
>>wedlock, with multiple women.
Not really. Bastards tend to assimilate into society, whereas organized polygamy leads to the tribal fracture of society.
Can you say “Tribal Warlords”?
Gen 2:2424 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Matt 19:5-6
'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one.Eph 5:28-33
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
Understood but nowhere does it say you can only have one wife. There is no positive command. You are extrapolating an entire doctrine from single verses that are are being used to describe a single relationship. If that were the case then may of the people in the old testament would have been violators of the law Such as Jacob and Issac, Solomon, Etc.
Now I would say that a Biblical model of one man with one wife is a good one to follow. But there is just nothing in the Laws of Moses (Which is God's law) which prevent a man from taking if he so desires more than one wife.
By the way you are using a corrupt version of the Bible The KJV is the only one not touched by 19th century occultists and 20th century Liberals and homosexuals.
>>Understood but nowhere does it
>>say you can only have one wife.
>>There is no positive command.
You can play these semantic games all you want. The model of marriage given by Christ Himself is clear.
One man, One Woman, One Flesh.
Its not a model. We differ on interpretation.
Matt 19:5-6
'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one.
“Trying to love two women is like a ball and chain.”—The Oak Ridge Boys
“Trying to love any more than that is like leaping into the ocean, chained up like Jacob Marley.”—Rich
OK. Here is your Bible lesson for today...
Try reading the context of the entire paragraph Leading up to Mat 5:19 and after. The Pharasee’s were asking if it was OK for a man to put away his wife. Christ was impressing the point that once joined together and man and his wife cannot be put asunder except certain conditions.
[3] The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
[4] And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
[5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
[6] Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
[7] They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
[8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Nowhere does this infer that the law said that only one man and one wife. Can you find it in the law of Moses? I challenge you to. The subject of the above verses is different.
Maybe its your little head that only reads what it wants to. Next time try and be wise and read the whole passage.
>>OK. Here is your Bible lesson for today...
Sorry, not interested in lessons from one who is an apologist for polygamists.
Christ was clear. I need no other source.
[16] Polygamy apparently was a common practice in ancient Israel (Lamech and Cain Gen. 4:19- 26:34-35; Abraham Gen. 16:14; Jacob Gen. 29:26; 3.0:4, 9; Elkanah-1 Sam. 1:5; Gideon Judges 8:30; David 2 Sam. 5:13ff.; 20:3; Solomon 1 Kings 11:1, 3: Rehoboam 2 Chron. 11:21) and was assumed in the legal code (Ex. 21:10; Deut. 21:1-17). The desire for offspring seems to have been the principal motivation, though other factors undoubtedly contributed to its acceptance as well (see David Mace, Hebrew Marriage [London: Epworth Press, 1953], pp. 121-22). Although polygamy as such is not condemned by the Old Testament, neither is any attempt made to justify the practice or to give it divine sanction. In those passages which are fundamental for our understanding of marriage, monogamy is presupposed (Gen. 1:26ff.; 2:18-24). In light of Jesus' confirmation of the original institution of marriage, polygamy, like divorce, must be regarded as evidence of Israel's refusal to be bound by the constraints of God's will expressed in the pattern set down at creation.
Pharases sb Pharisees
And so you cite another man’s opinion. I am not being an apologist for polygamists. I never said I supported their view. But you have to admit there is nothing in the laws of Moses specifically prohibiting it.
I do agree to the following...
That the Biblical model does seem to advocate one man with one wife. It is a model that I agree with. Every example of a ploygamist I have ever seen is someone who follows after their own lusts, and that is the motivating factor behind having as many wives as they do.
But, if God had a problem with some of his followers being married to more than one wife God would have said something and given divorces.
So when I see a man having more than one wife I would only say that it is stupid, and it is selfish but I cannot say necessarily that it is sinful.
Of course these nut jobs in Texas are a different story. Women and girls being forced into marriages. The state was right in putting a stop to that.
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