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BRITAIN IS SEEKING WAR PLANES HERE (Real Time + 70 Years)
Microfiche-New York Times archives | 4/14/38 | No byline

Posted on 04/14/2008 6:42:45 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson

BRITAIN IS SEEKING WAR PLANES HERE

Unable to Overtake Germany Quickly Enough, She Turns to U. S. and Canada

Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

London, April 13. – Finding that it cannot catch up with Germany quickly enough in the race for air supremacy, the British Government announced today that it had decided to make inquiries for military aircraft across the Atlantic.

“Definite exploratory action is being taken in regard to the possibility of the supply of aircraft for the Royal Air Force both from the United States and Canada,” Earl Winterton, Under-Secretary of State for Air, told questioners in the House of Commons.

Cheers from all parts of the House greeted the announcement, which followed pressure from influential quarters in recent weeks.

No orders have yet been placed except for training planes from the Boeing branch factory at Vancouver, B. C. It is understood, however, that a mission will leave this country within ten days to discover how many airplanes can be built for Britain across the Atlantic and how quickly they can be delivered.

Long-Range Bombers Needed

What Britain needs above all at the moment and hopes to obtain from the United States is a fleet of heavy long-range bombers. According to well-informed aviation experts, there is not a single bomber in the Royal Air Force today which is capable of flying to Berlin and back.

Undoubtedly the German conquest of Austria was the greatest single factor in forcing the British Government to look across the Atlantic for these bombers. A contributory cause, however, is believed to be the unexpected trouble the government is having with the engineering unions in its effort to speed up the rearmament program.

The unions thus far have shown themselves deeply suspicious of the government’s intentions and reluctant to change their rules so as to permit the dilution of skilled by unskilled labor in armament factories. The government is still confident of winning the unions’ help, but at the same time it fears that negotiations between the employers and the unions will take a long time.

Accordingly, the Cabinet has decided to look elsewhere and explore every available source for new airplanes, even if it means going outside the country. For, without help from outside, the British Government now fears, it may find itself in a position of serious inferiority if a war should come.

The British are not too hopeful at the moment of getting what they need from the United States. They are aware that American aircraft factories are busy with American armament orders, and they also understand the political difficulties that may stand in the way of British orders.

Similar inquiries made in the United States and Canada eighteen months ago produced such discouraging replies that the British dropped the idea of help from across the Atlantic and called upon their own aircraft industry for a redoubled effort.

But the British Government now wonders whether substantial orders will not be more welcome to the United States in the midst of a trade recession than in the booming Autumn of 1936. Moreover, it feels that nothing could have a more sobering effect upon Europe than the spectacle of American factories turning out airplanes in large quantities for the British war machine.

U. S. Officials Receptive

Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

WASHINGTON, April 13. – Army and navy officials expressed the opinion today that American airplane factories could manufacture planes in considerable quantities for Great Britain, as plants making army and navy planes have capacity for more business than they now have in prospect, notwithstanding orders from the United States Government.

Commenting on Earl Winterton’s announcement in London that the British Government was exploring the possibility of obtaining warplanes from this country and Canada, officials said that there was not the manufacturing capacity in this country for quick delivery of anything like 10,000 planes, but that there was a reasonable margin between orders in hand or in prospect and manufacturing capacity.

Obviously certain equipment developed by the American aviation services and of a secret military character, such as superchargers, controls and special types of armament, could not be made available to Britain, but officers said that, while this equipment was desirable, it was not vital.

Factories Set Up in Canada

OTTOWA, Ont., April 13 (Canadian Press). – Considerable progress has already been made in the way of setting up “shadow factories” in Canada for the purpose of manufacturing not only aircraft but various other types of war material, it was learned here today.

“Shadow factories,” it was explained, were those that had been surveyed by the government with a view to ascertaining their potential productive capacity of armaments. A survey completed in Canada by the National Defense Department some time ago embraced more than 700 Canadian concerns.

Already some Canadian plants are turning out war material for the British Government, shells for the new 3.45-inch field gun being made by the National Steel Car Company of Hamilton.

As far as British purchases of aircraft in Canada are concerned, nine Canadian concerns are building planes for the National Defense Department, all of them types employed by the Royal Air Force. These include the speediest fighters and bombers.

Some of those companies have representatives at present in London and they are believed to be advancing to the War Office the advantages of having efficient aircraft factories established remote from centers that might be destroyed by aerial bombing in the event of war.

END OF OIL STRIKE ADVISED

Columbia Promises to Study the Cost of Living and Wages

Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

BOGOTA, Columbia, April 13. – Tropical Oil Company workers, still on strike yesterday, were advised to return to work after a conference between the Minister of Industries, company officials and union representatives. The government will appoint a commission of experts to investigate the cost of living in relation to wages with a view of equitable adjustment of the strikers’ demands.

The union’s acceptance of this recommendation will probably enable strike leaders to save their faces, as only a part of the workers struck and many have already returned to work.

The press is unsympathetic to the strike, which is attributed to professional agitators led by Diego Luis Cordoba, a Negro Communist and a former member of Congress.


TOPICS: Canada; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: milhist; realtime
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To: Oztrich Boy

What is IOC? If it means they were on hand for the British armed forces then the first of those you listed really were available in April 1938.


41 posted on 04/14/2008 9:41:01 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson (For events that occurred in 1938, real time is 1938, not 2008.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
What is IOC?

Initial Operating Capabillty - first Squadron operational

The RAF was one of earliest Air Forces plan long range bombing opertaions. And miniscule as the force was by later standards, in 1938 RAF Bomber Command was probaly the largest strategic bomber force around

42 posted on 04/14/2008 9:53:53 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (So you want to be President - it's like reality TV, only real)
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To: Oztrich Boy
So were the "well-informed aviation experts" misinformed? Hey, just like today's well-informed experts.

From the article:

According to well-informed aviation experts, there is not a single bomber in the Royal Air Force today which is capable of flying to Berlin and back.

43 posted on 04/14/2008 9:58:46 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson (For events that occurred in 1938, real time is 1938, not 2008.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
"According to well-informed aviation experts, there is not a single bomber in the Royal Air Force today which is capable of flying to Berlin and back.

I hate to say it, but we are again looking back at 1938 through the telescope of 1939 to 1945.

And so we see strategic bombers as being a big deal -- a war winning strategy, something that broke the back of the German war machine.

But let us not forget, that for the first FOUR YEARS of the war, until the end of 1943, the allied bombing campaign was pretty much of a joke. They measured accuracy in terms of miles, and they were lucky to hit the right CITY.

And one study even showed more air crews lost than the number of Germans killed on the ground by allied bombing.

Of course, by 1944, all that changed. But my point is, strategic bombers in 1938 were FREAKIN USELESS, a complete waste of time and resources, demonstrating yet again that the Brits (God love them) had their heads up their stinking a** er, I mean, in the clouds, so to speak....

What they should have focused on was tanks, trucks, radios and infantry support fighter aircraft -- just like the Germans did. Most of all, they needed infantry.

Of course, after the First World War, that was the one thing they didn't want to ever have to do again. It's hard to blame them, but the cost was the loss of Europe and many more years of war...

44 posted on 04/14/2008 3:28:49 PM PDT by BroJoeK (A little historical perspective....)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
I remember reading some place that this is how we got the
P-51.

As I read it; The British were here trying to purchase
fighter planes. They wanted the Curtis P-40, but Curtis
did not have the production facilities to make P-40s for
them and meet its contract obligations to the Army Air
Corps. Someone came up with the plan to get North American
to build the P-40 under license. North American told the
British that they would not do this, but they would design
and build them a fighter that would be better than the P-40
and in less time than it would take for them to tool up for
P-40 production. 90 days later the new fighter rolled out
of a Hanger at North American, the British named the new
plane, The Mustang. At least, thats the way I read it.

Mike

45 posted on 04/14/2008 3:57:26 PM PDT by doublecansiter
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To: BroJoeK; Travis McGee; Squantos
Your post is totally correct, but the 'best laid plans of mice and men...?'

They had never anticipated the French would totally collapse like they did thus bringing every city in the UK within range of Jerry's medium bombers.

They also didn't allow for the fact that this time, the Germans would not respect Holland's neutrality.

What's the first Axiom of War: All plans turn to sh*t when the bullets fly?

46 posted on 04/14/2008 4:02:36 PM PDT by investigateworld ( Abortion stops a beating heart.)
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To: r9etb

In his “The First and the Last” General of the Fighters Adolf Galland mentioned Germany’s insane addiction to dive bombing as the main reason Germany could never field a decent heavy bomber.

The HE-177 remained a cranky prototype because they could never make it work as a (four-engined!) dive bomber.

The Ju-88 would have been much more formidable if the dive-bombing requirement not turned it into a “flying barn door.”


47 posted on 04/14/2008 5:29:49 PM PDT by sinanju
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To: Moose4

Like so many of Germany’s great aircraft designs, the Amerikabomber never got past the prototype stage. The inside-and-out resemblance to the B-29 was uncanny. Unfortunately, the premise (pour out vast treasure to build a fleet of bombers that could carry one decent-sized bomb apiece all the way to the U.S. and fly back) was ridiculous and an utter waste of resources.

The German Mosquito as I read it had only an accidental resemblance to the Brit Mosquito and was developed specifically as a night fighter. It worked fine but German aircraft manufacturers were reluctant to take on a wood aircraft because wood is such an inexact, unpredictable material for engineers.

The main problem for the Germans were that their efforts were so divided and random. Unlike us, they did not field a few good designs and then churn them out in mass quantities.


48 posted on 04/14/2008 5:38:41 PM PDT by sinanju
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Been busy lately, but here is some bonus material. The following is Roosevelt's Fireside chat from April 14th 1938.

Fireside Chat

You will notice in it that he is a true believer in government being the solution and that he does not have a grasp on what a free market is or what it can do. Many of his New Deal policies that he enacted we are still paying for today.

49 posted on 04/14/2008 8:39:45 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: doublecansiter
The whole story about the P-51 is kinda confusing. North American was playing around with a dive bomber; the A-36 which was the basis of the P-51.

General Motors was a major stock holder in North American then and obviously wanted more markets for the Allison V-1710 which powered the P-39 and the P-38 plus the P-40. At some point, someone bit the bullet = did the right thing and married the P-51 to the Rolls Royce Merlin V-1650, then being produced by Packard Motors.

I've talked with retired executives with NA, and even they didn't have a clear picture.

But I KNOW on FR, someone can straighten it out for me.

50 posted on 04/14/2008 8:54:07 PM PDT by investigateworld ( Abortion stops a beating heart.)
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To: CougarGA7
Thanks for the contribution. Very cool.

We tend to think of the depression as one long event that lasted from October 1929 until Dec. 7, 1941. A picture is emerging for me from the newspapers of the time and from the fireside chat that Americans of the time saw things differently. There are references to new recessions and improvements. I should start looking for unemployment figures in the papers as we move along. My rusty understanding is that unemployment remained unwaveringly high right until our entry into the war and the New Deal programs were more feel-good than objectively productive.

51 posted on 04/15/2008 7:19:14 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson (For events that occurred in 1938, real time is 1938, not 2008.)
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To: investigateworld
"They had never anticipated the French would totally collapse like they did thus bringing every city in the UK within range of Jerry's medium bombers."

Of course, with the benefit of perfect 20-20 hindsight, we can easily look back and say, "you fools, didn't you know X, Y and Z..?"

Just about every history I've ever seen of WWII comes from that sort of perspective:

1). The war might have been prevented, if the Brits & French had been more aggressive with Hitler, if they had made a serious effort to bring Stalin on board, and if the US had not been such isolationists (if, if, if...)

2). The war for France in 1940 did not have to be lost, if the Brits & French had not been so confused about what they were trying to do (more ifs). After all, the forces in 1940 were much more evenly matched than the outcome would suggest.

One thing is for certain: the Germans did not actually INVENT the idea of Blitzkrieg. And who do you supposed they learned it from?

That's right, the Brits, who seemingly then forgot it themselves.

52 posted on 04/15/2008 8:18:10 AM PDT by BroJoeK (A little historical perspective....)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
When you really look into the policies of the New Deal you will be amazed on how bad they really were and actually prolonged the recession. Using his Fireside chat I posted as a point of reference check this out.

In his chat he was going on about how we are overproducing and under consuming....in 1938. Lets look at the National Industrial Recovery act of 1933. (A New Deal policy)

The NIRA was formed to stabilize declining prices for industry. The declining prices were due to excess surplus of course. While they did stabilize prices at first, they also set a MINIMUM WAGE.

With the increased wages came an increase in prices and it hit a threshold where the consumer stopped buying. The the cycle of too much production and not enough consumption continued....for him to bemoan it 5 years later in his Fireside Chat.

53 posted on 04/15/2008 8:38:55 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: BroJoeK
Help out my memory, when did the Brits use coordinated Air - Armor - and supported Infantry prior to the Blitzkrieg?

The rest of your post is correct, I'm blessed with perfect 20 - 20 hindsight. And I also believe building China into a industrial powerhouse is pure insanity.

Come on over to a free trade thread sometime. Some of the folks there would offshore 100% of every needful item if they could.

54 posted on 04/15/2008 11:02:27 AM PDT by investigateworld ( Abortion stops a beating heart.)
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To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten; 359Henrie; 6323cd; 75thOVI; abb; ACelt; Adrastus; A message; AZamericonnie; ..
To all: please ping me to threads that are relevant to the MilHist list (and/or) please add the keyword "MilHist" to the appropriate thread. Thanks in advance.

Please FREEPMAIL indcons if you want on or off the "Military History (MilHist)" ping list.

55 posted on 04/15/2008 3:29:27 PM PDT by indcons
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To: Homer_J_Simpson; indcons; SouthTexas; NormsRevenge; glock rocks
Interesting timing for this article as just yesterday I received my brother's memoirs of his draft induction, training and deployment to England. His first mission as a bombardier on a B17 was June 30 1944 in support of Normandy and he was shot down on Aug 15 1944 and spent some time in Stalag III and then a 63 mile march in 2 feet of snow and temps down to _-43 and then a few days in a rail car with 39 other POWs per car and they only stopped at night. Patton liberated this camp personally because Patton's son was there...
56 posted on 04/15/2008 4:35:02 PM PDT by tubebender (Why am I dressed up like a Pirate serving chowder and ice tea...)
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To: sinanju

Actually the Germans did “field a few good designs and then churn[ed] them out in mass quantities. Think ME 109, Ju 87B, Heinkel 111K, Dornier 17, FW Condor. The problem was they were ALL first generation aircraft, designed and put into production BEFORE the war. The only tweo truly successful designs the Germans developed and produced on anything near a mass scale during the wwar were the FW 190, and 190D, and the JU 88.

The German Mosquito was built on Goering’s direct order. And he insisted it be a virtual copy of the British plane. The problem in production wasn’t the wood. It was the glue,which the Germans had a hell of a time developing, and which they couldn’t produce in quantity, or on a schedule yo allow aircraft production.

German aircraft were also hampered by Goering’s [and Hitler’s] idiotic requirements for dive brakes [even on the 4 engine jobs], or Hitler’s insistence that fighters be able to serve as fighter/bombers. That delayed the ME 262 going into service for a year.

On the other hand, the Germans during the same time period developed and fielded the first cruise missles [V1 and the anti-shipping rockets they used in the Atlantic], the ballistic missile [V2], jet aircraft [ME 262, and the Arado bomber], rocket aircraft [the Komet]; as well as the best light machinegun the world has ever seen [MG 42], and the world’s first assault rifle [Stg 44].


57 posted on 04/15/2008 4:38:48 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: investigateworld

The P 51 was initially manufactured with a different engine [underpowered], and was used as a ground attack aircraft because of its poor handling at altitude. The Rolls Royce Merlin engine gave it the potential to be the greatest piston engine fighter ever built. But it was putting the extra gas tank in the fuselage behind the pilot that put it over the top, giving it the range needed to escort the bombers into the Reich and out.


58 posted on 04/15/2008 4:42:39 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

How about the Kirk Douglas flick where an atomic carrier with f14s goes through a time warp and is in position to stop the Japanese on December 7th, 1941. The scene where jets smoke a couple of Zekes is priceless.


59 posted on 04/15/2008 4:45:06 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: Moose4

They also had a protype “flying wing” they were trying to get in the air - for use against the U.S.


60 posted on 04/15/2008 4:46:58 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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