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Current system stifles U.S. competition, productivity (Time For The Fair Tax!)
ajc.com ^ | April 15, 2008 | JOHN LINDER

Posted on 04/15/2008 11:54:07 AM PDT by Man50D

"Great idea — too bad it's never going to happen." Pretty discouraging words, I would say. In fact, it makes you wonder, "Why even put big ideas out there; what is the point?" Unfortunately, these are the words that I often hear when it comes to talking about my FairTax bill.

Ironically, I most often hear them from the folks who follow that comment up with a barrage of questions about the bill and suggestions on how to move the bill along more effectively. It is this phenomenon that strikes me — if it is a great idea, if it is much needed, why then will it never happen? Have we in this society become so jaded that we cannot believe that much-needed change is possible?

Perhaps Ben Franklin said it best in his famous quote, "In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." These words seem to have become America's credo when it comes to taxes, though I would wager that Franklin had not intended that to be the case. We have come to accept our current tax code as a part of our lives.

The FairTax legislation would repeal all corporate and individual income taxes, payroll taxes, self-employment taxes, capital gains taxes, death taxes and gift taxes and replace them with a revenue-neutral, 23 percent personal consumption tax. Americans would keep their entire paycheck and have the power to choose exactly when and how much to pay in taxes. It has always been a belief of mine that all taxes should be voluntary; we achieve this with the FairTax by offering to every household in America (provided that household can prove it is inhabited by citizens or legal U.S. residents) a tax prebate.

(Excerpt) Read more at ajc.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 110th; fairtax; linder

1 posted on 04/15/2008 11:54:08 AM PDT by Man50D
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To: ancient_geezer; Taxman; Principled; EternalVigilance; phil_will1; kevkrom; n-tres-ted; Jaysun; ...

Fair Tax ping!


2 posted on 04/15/2008 11:54:35 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it!)
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To: Man50D
The Fair Tax is the way to go. Write your elected royals and see if they will do what “We The People” say. I do not believe they care what we say or think but that is just my opinion.
3 posted on 04/15/2008 11:57:10 AM PDT by YOUGOTIT (The Greatest Threat to our Security is the Royal 100 Club)
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To: Man50D
Fair Tax, sure just as soon as:

Photobucket

4 posted on 04/15/2008 11:59:39 AM PDT by geo40xyz (McCain, Obama or Hillarybeast possibility of 4 Supreme Court Justices, Gore @UN. The WINNER is?)
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To: Man50D

American, Land of the (Highly Regulated and Taxed) Free.


5 posted on 04/15/2008 12:02:20 PM PDT by Slapshot68
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To: YOUGOTIT
Write your elected royals and see if they will do what “We The People” say. I do not believe they care what we say or think but that is just my opinion.

Congress critters certainly paid attention when the people expressed their outrage over Congress considering legislation to grant amnesty to illegal aliens. Politicians quickly wilted under the pressure and backed down. The same is gradually happening with The Fair Tax.
6 posted on 04/15/2008 12:07:22 PM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it!)
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To: Man50D
The Fair Tax is an excellent idea..
However, the fair tax with this COngress would become a VAT faster than Wall Street criminals stole Bear Stearns.. and pilfered the U.S. Treasury on the way IN THE DOOR..

The Fair Tax is BIG gov't republican bait to very large Congressional SHARKS.. Pass the Fair Tax and one thing is certain..
WE BETTER GET A BIGGER BOAT..

7 posted on 04/15/2008 12:20:40 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe

If I have read the Bill correctly, does not H.R. 25 repeal the 16th Amendment as part of its language. I believe that it also states that the provisions of the Fair Tax would not be implemented before that repeal.


8 posted on 04/15/2008 12:28:47 PM PDT by stefanbatory
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To: geo40xyz

I stole your picture...:P


9 posted on 04/15/2008 12:29:08 PM PDT by stefanbatory
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To: stefanbatory
If I have read the Bill correctly, does not H.R. 25 repeal the 16th Amendment as part of its language. I believe that it also states that the provisions of the Fair Tax would not be implemented before that repeal.

This is a little tricky. A Constitutional Amendment cannot be repealed by a mere law. It must be repealed by a subsequent Constitutional Amendment. This has only occured once before, when the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) was repealed by the 21st.

However, a law can be written such that it only goes into effect upon repeal of a particular Constitional Amendment.

It would also be possible for the new Amendment (which repeals the 16th), to include language that restricts the Fair Tax to its original form.

10 posted on 04/15/2008 2:16:48 PM PDT by 3niner (War is one game where the home team always loses.)
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To: stefanbatory
Repealing the 16th amendment will not happen...
SHort of a revolution it will never happen..
11 posted on 04/15/2008 3:22:29 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Man50D

The tax that hammers the retired. Starting with double taxation.


12 posted on 04/15/2008 3:42:35 PM PDT by Allen In Texas Hill Country
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To: Allen In Texas Hill Country
The tax that hammers the retired. Starting with double taxation.

This retired would welcome the FairTax. When all things settled out, there probably wouldn't be much difference in the amount of my tax. But I would be relieved of the obligation of keeping detailed records for years and years and compiling, summarizing and filing a tax return every April 15 that includes intimate details of my financial situation and the charities I help support.

Retirees that have all their assets in cash accounts are in the same situation as an estate. After the assets of the estate have been taxed and accumulated, they are taxed again when the estate is settled. For those with all cash retirement assets, the main benefit of the FairTax would be a general downward drift of prices and no income tax paid on accrued interest (or anything else). Retirees that have their assets in IRA's, 401(k)'s, appreciated stock, etc should have no problem with the FairTax. These assets are mostly untaxed.

I just mentioned several gimmicks that Congress has given us to tweak the income tax. FairTax would make new IRA's, 410(k)'s, long and short term capital gains obsolete, as well as depreciation calculations, tax exempt bonds and dozens of other complicated little gimmicks. To me, much of the advantage of the FairTax is the relative simplicity.

Double taxation is not unheard of with the present system. Estates, as I mentioned, are taxed twice. Taxing dividends is a second taxing of a corporation's profits.

13 posted on 04/15/2008 4:22:40 PM PDT by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: Allen In Texas Hill Country
The tax that hammers the retired. Starting with double taxation.

You're already getting hammered multiple times with the income tax between tax on interest for savings accounts, capital gains tax and paying the embedded corporate taxes in everything you purchase. The Fair Tax will turn that sledge hammer into a tack hammer by abolishing all those taxes
14 posted on 04/15/2008 4:47:06 PM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it!)
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To: Cracker Jack

I filed my ‘08 taxes and quickly realized that the only taxes I have to pay from now on are real estate and state sales tax. And I could care less as regards taxing my estate when I pass. So it completely eludes me have a national sales tax will help me. It won’t. It will greatly increase my tax burden besides double taxing money I spend from my savings (not 401k). All round bad deal.


15 posted on 04/15/2008 4:49:09 PM PDT by Allen In Texas Hill Country
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To: Man50D
"...(Time For The Fair Tax!)..."

IT'S PAST TIME for the Fiar Tax.

There. Fixed it.

It's beyond time to end this insanity. It's OUR money. Let us keep it. Note my tagline. Appropriate for today.
16 posted on 04/15/2008 6:32:05 PM PDT by NCC-1701 (PUT AN END TO ORGANIZED CRIME. ABOLISH THE I.R.S.)
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To: Allen In Texas Hill Country
The tax that hammers the retired. Starting with double taxation.

WRONG!!!

17 posted on 04/15/2008 8:28:09 PM PDT by Turret Gunner A20
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To: Allen In Texas Hill Country
I filed my ‘08 taxes and quickly realized that the only taxes I have to pay from now on are real estate and state sales tax.

I'm not sure what income is required to pay no tax, but my 90-year old MIL paid no tax for the first time in '07. She lives on SS and one small pension and paid tax on $21,000 gross income in 2005. For 2007, her medical bill deduction finally eliminated her income tax obligation.

Are you aware that the FairTax is refunded to everyone for the poverty level of spending? You and everyone else (legal resident) receives a full refund on your first $X of spending each month. (X is determined by the feds, the same people that define the poverty level now.) With embedded taxes removed from the price of what you buy, the price of the product goes down, so the only federal tax you pay is the FairTax when purchasing a new item or a service. You would pay FairTax on cheaper goods and services for your spending above the poverty level.

This might not help you any, but it is not an "all around bad deal", either. And it will be great for your grandkids, or your friend's grandkids. (It is usually liberals that say "do it for the chi-i-i-ildren". /s)

18 posted on 04/16/2008 5:45:42 AM PDT by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: NCC-1701
It's OUR money. Let us keep it.

If the FairTax promises to be revenue neutral, which it does, then how do you suppose the tax scheme will permit you to keep your own money?

According to Boortz, the money withheld from your paycheck to pay taxes is not really your money, but your tax burden incurred as a result of your employment, and passed on to your employer. In other words, your employer pays your taxes, not you. Its his money.

Every employee of any company involved in American commerce is also a provider of a service, and, as such, the employee incurs a tax liability as a result of his or her work. This tax liability is incorporated into what the employee charges the employer for their services, and is eventually incorporated into the final retail cost of the employer’s product or service. Each employee is essentially a separate business entity providing a product, be it physical or mental labor, to the employer.

...With the passage of The FairTax Bill, those embedded taxes disappear. These embedded taxes include the combined tax burdens of all entities involved in bringing those goods or services to market, and that includes you, the employee, and the taxes you incur as a result of your employment.

...He will either take some or the entire amount he had been withholding for federal income and payroll taxes and add it to your weekly check, or he will readjust your pay figures so that your entire paycheck will be equal to what you used to call “take home pay” before the FairTax. Boortz Clarifies “Keep 100% of Your Paycheck”

In a sense, what the FairTax scheme does is to remove your tax burden paid by your employer, and transfer it to government in the form of the prebate, but only up to the poverty level; so the prebate isn't your money either, only a portion of your tax burden passed on to government.

As for removing embedded taxes from the price of a product or service - those taxes are are withholding and payroll taxes paid by your employer, so if prices fall, then so must your gross pay. However, if removal of embedded taxes from retail prices means that the portion of your pay that was called taxes is now simply called wages, then prices remain the same with 30% sales tax added when the purchase is made.

19 posted on 04/16/2008 6:54:59 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: Cracker Jack
You and everyone else (legal resident) receives a full refund on your first $X of spending each month. (X is determined by the feds, the same people that define the poverty level now.)

Of course "X" excludes food and energy price increases.

With embedded taxes removed from the price of what you buy, the price of the product goes down, so the only federal tax you pay is the FairTax when purchasing a new item or a service. You would pay FairTax on cheaper goods and services for your spending above the poverty level.

If embedded taxes are removed from prices, that means employees have received a cut in gross pay, but still have an unmet tax burden.

20 posted on 04/16/2008 7:07:54 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom
If embedded taxes are removed from prices, that means employees have received a cut in gross pay, but still have an unmet tax burden.

I was very careful to not claim all embedded taxes would be removed. Employees still get their gross checks which leaves some embedded tax. However, removing corporate income tax, employers share of SS and the associated compliance costs will result in major cost savings. I trust the free market to reduce prices in response to lower costs in a competitive market.

Of course "X" excludes food and energy price increases.

And, of course, X is adjusted periodically, as is any index related to the cost of living. And the adjustment lags behind any change in prices. So how does this make the FairTax refund adjustment inferior to any other cost of living adjustment?

You are expecting perfection in a replacement for the income tax, for crying out loud. Please tell us, with all its perceived imperfections, how the FairTax is inferior to the our present income tax.

21 posted on 04/16/2008 7:52:38 AM PDT by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: Cracker Jack
I was very careful to not claim all embedded taxes would be removed. Employees still get their gross checks which leaves some embedded tax. However, removing corporate income tax, employers share of SS and the associated compliance costs will result in major cost savings. I trust the free market to reduce prices in response to lower costs in a competitive market.

To claim major cost savings by eliminating corporate income tax when 61% of US corporations pay no income tax now is pure fantasy.

Likewise, to figure that the employee will receive their gross pay after the FairTax, particularly when employers are treated differently under the FairTax is also wishful thinking. For instance, if government pays the 30% FairTax on certain employee wages, and the employee gets his gross pay, the cost of those employees has just increased by 30%. Either the employee gets a pay cut, the cost of government goes up, or government employees get laid off.

And, of course, X is adjusted periodically, as is any index related to the cost of living. And the adjustment lags behind any change in prices. So how does this make the FairTax refund adjustment inferior to any other cost of living adjustment?

The point is that as food and energy prices increase, so does the FairTax. We're paying close to $4 a gallon for gas where I live now, the FairTax would add another $1.20 to the current price without a concomitant increase in the prebate. Do you think that gas at $5.20 a gallon would increase economic activity, or slow it further?

22 posted on 04/16/2008 9:11:49 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: Cracker Jack
You are expecting perfection in a replacement for the income tax, for crying out loud. Please tell us, with all its perceived imperfections, how the FairTax is inferior to the our present income tax.

One very big disadvantage to converting from the income tax to the FairTax is that it would have a profound impact on every aspect of our economic lives. The devil is in the details, as they say. The bill doesn't define, for instance, what part of withholding and payroll taxes goes to the employer and which to the employee. While you imagine that 100% of your paycheck means gross pay, your employer might imagine it means your current take home pay so that he can fulfill the FairTax promise of lower prices and the company that employs your plummer decides his prices remain the same with the 30% tax added to current prices.

Simply put, the income tax is a known, imperfect as it is. We don't know what the transition costs of the FairTax might be, or unintended consequences as all that isn't defined in the bill shakes out. You may think you're willing to pay the price now, but how do you know until you know what the price is?

23 posted on 04/16/2008 9:32:59 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: Allen In Texas Hill Country
The tax that hammers the retired. Starting with double taxation.

You got that right. With the 30%+ sales tax A new Chevy or Ford Will cost you an additional $10,000.00 + out the money you already paid tax on in the past.

They never mention that SS tax started with a tax on, I think it was, 1.5% on $3,000.00. And what Congress conjures up congress can change at their leisure.

When SS was passed there was never to be any tax on your SS benefits. Clinton put the tax on during his watch.

We have all these liberals from DU trying to act like conservatives and they just don't cut it on FR.

24 posted on 04/16/2008 1:02:05 PM PDT by chainsaw ( No black racist Muslims in the WH.)
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To: Allen In Texas Hill Country

Are you aware that the fair tax is refunded to everyone for the poverty level of spending? It is not law yet nd these are liberal talking ponts to get the sheeple to accept their ultra liberal tax program.

Fair Tax = Sales Tax! There is no such thing as a Fair Tax

To get the refund will a tax return have to be filed. Probably.

Congress critters will not get rid of a cash cow that allows them to pilfer your pay check even before you see it. Mark my word. I refuse to argue with these liberals on FR spewing this fair tax garbage.


25 posted on 04/16/2008 1:18:30 PM PDT by chainsaw ( No black racist Muslims in the WH.)
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To: lucysmom
The bill doesn't define, for instance, what part of withholding and payroll taxes goes to the employer and which to the employee.

What makes you think the legislation has any effect on the contract between employer and employee? Under the current tax regime the employer is simply an agent who collects taxes from the employee and remits them to the Treasury. If the Treasury loses authority to tax income why wouldn't the employee receive his/her entire paycheck after remaining deductions?

26 posted on 04/16/2008 6:10:26 PM PDT by groanup (Politics, dog ticks, wood ticks and bed ticks. They're all parasites.)
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To: hosepipe

We’d best get going on that latter suggestion then. Before things get really bad...


27 posted on 04/16/2008 6:20:44 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: groanup
What makes you think the legislation has any effect on the contract between employer and employee?

And contracts are never renegotiated when conditions and/or rules of the game change?

If the Treasury loses authority to tax income why wouldn't the employee receive his/her entire paycheck after remaining deductions?

Ask Linder, the bills perpetual Congressional sponsor, and Boortz, the guy who wrote the book with Linder.

These embedded taxes include the combined tax burdens of all entities involved in bringing those goods or services to market, and that includes you, the employee, and the taxes you incur as a result of your employment.

We write in The FairTax Book that the competitive pressures of the marketplace will force prices down when embedded taxes disappear from the cost of retail goods and services, and we cite 22% as the average amount of those embedded taxes. Does this 22% include the income and payroll taxes that are paid by employees? Yes, it does...

http://boortz.com/nuze/200509/09152005.html

If embedded taxes are not removed, but just undergo a name change, then FairTax claims start to unravel. There is far less room for prices to fall. US made products are not more competitive in the global market, and imports are still attractive, price-wise, to US consumers. The cost of a new GM truck (I doubt they're paying any corporate income taxes at the moment) remains the same with the 30% sales tax added.

I agree with you that taking money away from employees is a hard sell, even if that money never made its way into their checking accounts, perhaps that's what the prebate is for.

28 posted on 04/16/2008 7:47:33 PM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom
Blah, blah, blah. Just show me in the legislation where the employee's gross pay is affected.

Prices will not fall by the equivalent amount of the FT rate. They will tend to fall around 10-15% after the removal of corporate taxes, corporate payroll tax and compliance. Gross pay goes up by 20% and prices go up by about the same amount after the consumption tax is levied.

29 posted on 04/17/2008 8:22:00 AM PDT by groanup (Politics, dog ticks, wood ticks and bed ticks. They're all parasites.)
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To: groanup
Just show me in the legislation where the employee's gross pay is affected.

The same place where it says prices will fall 10-15% and gross pay goes up 20%.

30 posted on 04/17/2008 10:09:46 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom

Inn other words, NOWHERE.


31 posted on 04/17/2008 12:57:11 PM PDT by groanup (Politics, dog ticks, wood ticks and bed ticks. They're all parasites.)
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To: groanup
Inn other words, NOWHERE.

So, when your write Prices will not fall by the equivalent amount of the FT rate. They will tend to fall around 10-15% after the removal of corporate taxes, corporate payroll tax and compliance. Gross pay goes up by 20% [I assume you mean take home pay, not gross pay] and prices go up by about the same amount after the consumption tax is levied. you admit you just made it up.

Can you prove that corporate income taxes (61% of US corporations pay no income taxes) and compliance costs along with the employer's share of payroll taxes add up to 10-15% of retail prices?

The bill says that income and payroll taxes are repealed, not that they are added to the employee's take home pay. Boortz and Linder say your employer will make the decision when the time comes and that that decision could well result in take home pay remaining the same after the FairTax as it was before.

Again, the FairTax promise of making US products more competitive in the global market depends on US worker's receiving less overall pay.

32 posted on 04/18/2008 8:21:13 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom
Can you prove that corporate income taxes (61% of US corporations pay no income taxes) and compliance costs along with the employer's share of payroll taxes add up to 10-15% of retail prices?

No I can't. And you can't prove that it doesn't. That is why I use a range. 7.65% of payroll is the place to start.

Again, the FairTax promise of making US products more competitive in the global market depends on US worker's receiving less overall pay.

Only in Boortz's mind.

33 posted on 04/18/2008 8:32:17 AM PDT by groanup (Politics, dog ticks, wood ticks and bed ticks. They're all parasites.)
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To: lucysmom
To claim major cost savings by eliminating corporate income tax when 61% of US corporations pay no income tax now is pure fantasy.

Wrong. First, my congratulations to the tax accountants for the 61%. I'll bet the compliance costs for the 61% were significant. The 61% number is for the years 1996-2000, under Clinton taxes. Second, a corporation doesn't need to pay income tax to have embedded taxes or compliance costs. If they withhold social security from employees, their share of social security is an embedded tax. If their suppliers pay any federal tax, there is an embedded tax. The "large" corporations, those with over $50 million gross income, had no where near 61% not paying income tax. And, using 2006 numbers, corporate income taxes were 15.7% of net collections of all taxes.

To deny the effect of embedded business taxes is purely delusional.

Likewise, to figure that the employee will receive their gross pay after the FairTax, particularly when employers are treated differently under the FairTax is also wishful thinking.

Net pay is gross pay minus deductions. If the deductions go to zero, net pay becomes gross pay. Would the FairTax negate every employment contract? I'll bet the unions would agree to that. (/s)

The point is that as food and energy prices increase, so does the FairTax.

And when my income goes up, of course my income tax will stay the same. And that is the reason the income tax is better.(/s) Where do you get logic like that?

I am not one that is looking for my federal tax bill to go down, at least not initially. I expect it to be very close to the same, since the FairTax is designed to be revenue neutral. If the same amount of revenue is raised from the same number of individuals, the average per individual will be the same. The average tax goes down if the number of individuals goes up or if the visibility of the tax creates pressure to cut spending.

I am looking to getting rid of the April 15 deadline and all of the aggravation associated with it. I expect my FairTax to be paid with the income tax I don't pay plus price reductions from elimination of embedded tax and tax compliance costs. I am looking forward to the economic activity generated when embedded taxes are removed from our exports and when corporations world-wide see a tax-free environment for their corporations.

34 posted on 04/18/2008 8:56:17 PM PDT by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: lucysmom
One very big disadvantage to converting from the income tax to the FairTax is that it would have a profound impact on every aspect of our economic lives.

Gosh, I hope so. There will certainly be withdrawal symptoms from not saving every scrap of paper involved in generating income or justifying a deductible expense. I really dread not telling the IRS every aspect of my financial and philanthropic life. The income tax system IS deeply ingrained in our culture. Just like one telephone company and three TV networks and 55 mile per hour speed limits were. I think I could adjust.

The bill doesn't define, for instance, what part of withholding and payroll taxes goes to the employer and which to the employee.

I had always considered my take-home pay to be gross minus deductions. I had always thought my employer considered that my pay was my gross pay, but there was an obligation to deduct part of it and send it off to the tax people. But I suppose there might be employers that try to cut wages. Let union contracts and the free market sort that out.

Simply put, the income tax is a known, imperfect as it is.

I think you just told me that if you go west from Spain, you will fall off the edge before you reach the New World.

35 posted on 04/18/2008 9:28:57 PM PDT by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: Cracker Jack
The "large" corporations, those with over $50 million gross income, had no where near 61% not paying income tax. And, using 2006 numbers, corporate income taxes were 15.7% of net collections of all taxes.

In 1950, corporations paid 32.1 percent, so what's your point?

Would the FairTax negate every employment contract? I'll bet the unions would agree to that. (/s)

Unions have been making concessions in pay and benefits for some time now.

A stunning marker of this new era was the demand by Delphi last fall for wage cuts of more than 60 percent from its unionized workers. Never since the modern union movement rose in the struggles of the 1930s has a major company made that sort of demand. Delphi has since backed off a little, but it still is seeking reductions of more than 50 percent of pay levels.

Northwest's pilots have seen pay cuts totaling 35 percent over the past 15 months but face more demands for concessions from the airline.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002822905_laborgivebacks23.html

Pay cuts do happen and unions do accept them.

And when my income goes up, of course my income tax will stay the same. And that is the reason the income tax is better.(/s) Where do you get logic like that?

Its your logic in defense of the FairTax, not mine.

I am looking forward to the economic activity generated when embedded taxes are removed from our exports and when corporations world-wide see a tax-free environment for their corporations.

If its true that you get less of what you tax, then you can expect a decline in retail sales following the implementation of the FairTax. For us, in the US, that means a decline in economic activity and increased unemployment.

If its not true, then untaxing savings and investments will have no effect on that segment of the market.

36 posted on 04/19/2008 5:00:03 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: chainsaw
To get the refund will a tax return have to be filed. Probably.

A form will need to be filed, one time, that tells who is included, their SS numbers, and where to deposit the refund. It will need to be filed again if any of that changes. Compare that with the financial anal exam required every year to file your income tax and recover any refund.

Mark my word. I refuse to argue with these liberals on FR spewing this fair tax garbage.

Fortunately, you are not the recognized definer of conservatism for this site. I will match my conservative credentials with anyone here.

So I presume this is the last of your uninformed comments about the FairTax. Good.

37 posted on 04/19/2008 5:14:46 AM PDT by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: Cracker Jack
I had always thought my employer considered that my pay was my gross pay, but there was an obligation to deduct part of it and send it off to the tax people. But I suppose there might be employers that try to cut wages. Let union contracts and the free market sort that out.

According to Boortz and Linder, there is another way of looking at payroll taxes and withholding. While their point of view may be irrelevant under the current tax system, that doesn't guarantee it would remain irrelevant if the FairTax were passed.

The FACT is that the bill says payroll and income taxes are repealed, it doesn't say where they go. Boortz and Linder say its up to the employer to decide who's pocket the money ends up in. To assume that repealed taxes will end up in your paycheck is to buy a pig in a poke.

I think you just told me that if you go west from Spain, you will fall off the edge before you reach the New World.

No, I'm telling you that just because something is revolutionary, doesn't make it good or better than what it replaces.

The consumption tax, on the other hand, can only be regarded as a payment for permission-to-live. It implies that a man will not be allowed to advance or even sustain his own life, unless he pays, off the top, a fee to the State for permission to do so. The consumption tax does not strike me, in its philosophical implications, as one whit more noble, or less presumptuous, than the income tax. Murray Rothbard

I am reminded of a game we used to play as children called "Mother May I". One had to ask permission from "mother" before any move could be made. In the FairTax version, one must pay "uncle" before indulging in a bowl of oatmeal, first for the oatmeal, then for the water, next for the energy to cook the oatmeal, and a payment for each and every item added.

The real issue is total spending by government, not tax reform. Ron Paul

38 posted on 04/19/2008 6:08:27 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom
In the FairTax version, one must pay "uncle" before indulging in a bowl of oatmeal, first for the oatmeal, then for the water, next for the energy to cook the oatmeal, and a payment for each and every item added.

A touching image, tugging at our compassion. Except it isn't realistic. The poor soul, wondering where to get his next bowl of gruel, will pay "uncle" with the prebate and pay for the gruel with whatever resources he uses now. The FairTax refund undercuts that old "don't tax the poor" mantra.

It is convenient for the refund to be forgotten by FairTax opponents, except when they start referring to a refund as a welfare payment.

39 posted on 04/19/2008 7:16:11 AM PDT by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: Cracker Jack
The poor soul, wondering where to get his next bowl of gruel, will pay "uncle" with the prebate and pay for the gruel with whatever resources he uses now.

Sure, right after he pays "uncle" his 30% for the roof over his head and a buck-twenty for the gallon of gas he needs to get to work.

40 posted on 04/19/2008 2:46:59 PM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom
Sure, right after he pays "uncle" his 30% for the roof over his head and a buck-twenty for the gallon of gas he needs to get to work.

Now I understand. The FairTax can't get your support unless it also eliminates poverty. Again, what part of "The prebate pays the FairTax on the poverty level of spending" don't you understand? To repeat a phrase, the FairTax refund undercuts that old "don't tax the poor" mantra.

41 posted on 04/19/2008 4:27:51 PM PDT by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: Cracker Jack
Now I understand. The FairTax can't get your support unless it also eliminates poverty.

Wrong again.

The FairTax (permission to live tax) puts the federal government in the middle and with its hand out before any legal transaction can take place, with exception of used items as defined by the FairTax (the FairTax bill redefines used as previously untaxed rather than previously owned).

Again, what part of "The prebate pays the FairTax on the poverty level of spending" don't you understand?

I understand that it is flawed based on statistics that are flawed.

42 posted on 04/20/2008 9:58:58 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: lucysmom
The FairTax (permission to live tax) puts the federal government in the middle and with its hand out before any legal transaction can take place, with exception of used items...

Wow. What a persuasive argument against a sales tax. It is such a powerful argument that it has resulted in defeat of sales tax legislation in all of our 50 states. (/s)

This seems to be a pointless discussion, as your persistent protection of the status quo forces you into some pretty silly responses. Goodbye.

43 posted on 04/20/2008 10:18:01 AM PDT by Cracker Jack (If it weren't for the democrats, republicans would be the worst thing in Washington.)
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To: Cracker Jack
Wow. What a persuasive argument against a sales tax. It is such a powerful argument that it has resulted in defeat of sales tax legislation in all of our 50 states. (/s)

The FairTax is not like state sales taxes for a number of reasons beginning with rates and the prebate. In fact FairTax supporters have to rely on purchased economic studies for "proof" because there are no real world examples to draw from.

This seems to be a pointless discussion...

I agree. If you can't stick to issues, but must resort to logical fallacies to keep the discussion going, you've lost.

44 posted on 04/20/2008 12:07:42 PM PDT by lucysmom
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