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Afghan troops told to lay down trusty AK47s
Times Online ^ | 4/15

Posted on 04/16/2008 4:58:44 AM PDT by Dawnsblood

The reason for this dramatic change in the fighting culture of the average Afghan soldier is not to boost the coffers of the American manufacturer of the M16 —- although it undoubtedly will.

The war hospital among the world’s best Nato general warns of a more ruthless Taleban Rather, it is designed to improve the efficiency of the ANA and teach its soldiers how to preserve ammunition to ensure that, when a battle is fought, the enemy is defeated before the bullets run out.

Traditionally, the Afghan will fire his Kalashnikov from the hip as he advances, spraying the enemy in all directions on automatic mode until every bullet has been expended.

But that is not the way of the British or American soldier who uses his ammunition stocks with greater husbandry and fires to kill, rather than to deluge the enemy with a wall of bullets.

The M16 is fired automatically but in triple bursts, not a constant stream, and never from the hip but with aimed shots from the shoulder. It is against the very nature of warfare as practised by an Afghan soldier, but at Camp Tombstone the first attempts are being made to consign the AK47 to history.

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: ak47; banglist; m16

1 posted on 04/16/2008 4:58:44 AM PDT by Dawnsblood
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To: Dawnsblood
.....when a battle is fought, the enemy is defeated before the bullets run out

Yeah, well that's the normal course of events.

2 posted on 04/16/2008 5:02:57 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Dawnsblood

Give ‘em an SKS and teach them to aim their shots. They can use the old ammo, too.


3 posted on 04/16/2008 5:04:09 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: Dawnsblood

I saw an interview with an Afgan soldier who was running and spraying unaimed shots from his hip. When asked why he did that he said:

“It is allah’s will whether the bullet hits the enemy or not, it doesn’t matter what you do, if allah wants him to die, he will let the bullet fly strait.”

I guess the only reason there are little soldiers being made is that both sides use the same tactics.


4 posted on 04/16/2008 5:07:13 AM PDT by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: Abathar
“It is allah’s will whether the bullet hits the enemy or not, it doesn’t matter what you do,

Spray and pray. Literally.

Coming from a culture that prizes marksmanship, I find the attitude astonishing.

5 posted on 04/16/2008 5:09:42 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Abathar
“It is allah’s will whether the bullet hits the enemy or not, it doesn’t matter what you do,

This irresponsible fatalism is a central part of Islamic culture. If there wasn't oil, the Arab states would be Third World hell-holes due to lack of energy and initiative

The fatalism is also what attracts losers to Islam: if it's all Allah's will, then your condition cannot be blamed on your lack of intelligence, energy, or initiative

6 posted on 04/16/2008 5:18:47 AM PDT by PapaBear3625
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To: ArrogantBustard
"Coming from a culture that prizes marksmanship..."

Say what?

7 posted on 04/16/2008 5:22:13 AM PDT by OKSooner
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To: ArrogantBustard

I agree. Muslims must not hunt much or they would have starved to death a long long time ago.


8 posted on 04/16/2008 5:23:37 AM PDT by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: OKSooner
I come from a culture (American) that prizes marksmanship.

I find the Afghan "As Allah Wills" attitude astonishing.

Is that a little clearer?

9 posted on 04/16/2008 5:25:05 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Abathar
Muslims must not hunt much

Apparently not in Afghanistan ... I think Americans view hunting very differently from most of the rest of the world.

10 posted on 04/16/2008 5:28:46 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Yes, thank you.


11 posted on 04/16/2008 5:29:21 AM PDT by OKSooner
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To: Smokin' Joe
Give ‘em an SKS and teach them to aim their shots. They can use the old ammo, too.,

Hell, a simple trigger swap on their current full auto AK's will make them semi-auto.

Cost on the US retail market is less than $40 bucks. (probable a dollar or two for uncle.) Would take an semi trained armory about 10 min per weapon.

12 posted on 04/16/2008 5:48:59 AM PDT by MrPiper
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To: PapaBear3625
The fatalism is also what attracts losers to Islam: if it's all Allah's will, then your condition cannot be blamed on your lack of intelligence, energy, or initiative

Excellent

I shall not find fault with my own behavior in order to excuse theirs.

13 posted on 04/16/2008 5:54:39 AM PDT by Ouderkirk (Hillary = Senator Incitatus, Clintigula's whore...er, horse.)
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To: Dawnsblood
Traditionally, the Afghan will fire his Kalashnikov from the hip as he advances, spraying the enemy in all directions on automatic mode until every bullet has been expended.


14 posted on 04/16/2008 5:57:58 AM PDT by Malsua
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To: Abathar
“It is allah’s will whether the bullet hits the enemy or not, it doesn’t matter what you do, if allah wants him to die, he will let the bullet fly strait.”

Lemme guess, alla will be responsible for cleaning the M4 as well ???

15 posted on 04/16/2008 5:57:59 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Choose Liberty over slavery... the gulag awaits ANY compromise with evil...LiveFReeOr Die...)
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To: Dawnsblood
Just my $.02 but making the Afghan's use the M-16A2 over the AK-47 is wrong on soooooooo many levels.

First of the M-16A2 is a precision made weapon that needs constant babying - aka CLEANING - and that ain't gonna happen. Like the article says, you can bury an AK in the sand for 100 years, dig it up, and it will fire (just like we found in the climes on Vietnam). Try that with any M-16.

Secondly, contrary to the article the M-16 was not designed to 'kill', aimed 3 round burst or not. the theory behind that little bullet was it was designed to injure, and as such take 3 bad-guys out of a battle (2 to care for the wounded). The AK's 7.62x39 is far superior for 'killing' up to 200 yards. And for longer distances neither are ideal in battle. Then there's the ammo. The 7.62x39 is prolly the most available round in the world thanks to the USSR, China, etc.

Oh, and there's a reason the M-16A2 only fires a three round burst, compared to the old 'full auto' A1 used in Vietnam. The US Military is cheap, historically cheap. After Vietnam the bean counters went to work and found it took 25,000 M-16A1 rounds per VC/NVA kill. And we can't have that it's a 'waste of money', so the A2 came out with the 3 round burst. So let them keep the AK, or if ammo cost is again rearing its ugly head, give them SKS's. There's plenty available and the ammo is the same.

As to the 'historically cheap' part - that goes back to the Civil war and US Military choice of the single shot Springfield over the Henry 'repeater' (waste of bullets and money). And that 'logic' continued through the Indian Wars. If Custer's 7th had Winchesters at the Little Big Horn - which many of the 'injuns' did, it wouldn't have been his 'last stand'. (yeah one Gatling would have done it too but that's another matter)

The M-16 just sucks, in any version. It was designed for a war that never came.

(just my $.02)

16 posted on 04/16/2008 6:49:28 AM PDT by Condor51 (I have guns in my nightstand because a Cop won't fit)
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To: Condor51

What kind of war was it designed for?


17 posted on 04/16/2008 9:16:00 AM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: wastedyears
*** What kind of war was it designed for? ***

Against the Soviet Bloc, aka a Regular Army, where they would care about a fellow wounded soldier. The terrorists don't - meeting Allah is fine with them.

There's been many complaints currently by the troops about the lousy killing power of the M-16A2 & its variants (there's been Threads on these articles). There's been articles posted that the US Army is now looking into the development of a new Main Battle Rifle with more power to replace the M-16. (check banglist)

In the meantime, the M-14 with its .308 would fit the bill, especially with a modification to the 3 round burst wanted by the ammo cost bean counters. The original M-14 was unwieldy on 'full auto'.

18 posted on 04/16/2008 9:39:30 AM PDT by Condor51 (I have guns in my nightstand because a Cop won't fit)
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To: Condor51
The original M-14 was unwieldy on 'full auto'.

Try 'completely uncontrollable' and you'll be nearer the mark. However, as a semi-auto precision fire weapon the M-14 is just about perfect IMO. Full disclosure: I own an M1A which is the civie version of the M14.

There's been many complaints currently by the troops about the lousy killing power of the M-16A2 & its variants

There are literally tens of thousands of America's enemies who are no longer breathing because of the M16 and it's variants. It'll kill bad guys just fine if you put the round where it needs to go.

There's a deeper story here which, suprise suprise, the MSM droid completely missed. What we're trying to do with the ANA is to change it's 'battle doctrine' so it's soldiers actually care where the bullet thingy goes.

That's a huge change for them, and it won't come easily.

There's been articles posted that the US Army is now looking into the development of a new Main Battle Rifle with more power to replace the M-16.

True enough, but every single one of those replacements is spec'd to fire the 5.56 NATO cartridge. There's been some limited research into 6.8mm and others, but the 5.56 is going to be standard US issue for the next few decades at least.

L

19 posted on 04/16/2008 10:41:39 AM PDT by Lurker (Pimping my blog: http://lurkerslair-lurker.blogspot.com/)
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To: Dawnsblood
Why don't we just equip the Iraqi and Afghani armies with the Polish Tantal Beryl rifle??? Not much retraining would be needed to field those weapons, as they are 5.56mm NATO variations of the AK-74m, and more accurate than the AK-47.


20 posted on 04/16/2008 9:36:50 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: Thunder90
Why don't we just equip the Iraqi and Afghani armies with the Polish Tantal Beryl rifle???

Because there aren't jobs as project managers for senior US Army officers, nor post-retirement double-dipping corporate positions for them, available at Poland's Łucznik Arms Factory.

21 posted on 04/18/2008 4:23:50 PM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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