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M4 does poorly in Army's own test
Seattle PI ^ | 4/20/08 | RICHARD LARDNER

Posted on 04/20/2008 11:54:38 AM PDT by Dawnsblood

When the dust finally settled, Army officials sought to put the best face on a sandstorm test that humbled Colt Defense's vaunted M4 carbine.

The tests were conducted at an Army laboratory in Maryland last fall. Ten M4s and 10 copies each of three other carbines - the SCAR from Belgium's FN Herstal, and the HK416 and the XM8 from Germany's Heckler & Koch - were coated in heavy layers of talcum-fine dust to simulate a sandstorm. Tens of thousands of rounds were fired through the rifles.

The M4s malfunctioned 882 times. Bullets that didn't feed through the rifles properly or became lodged in the firing chamber were the biggest problems.

The other carbines had far fewer hitches. The carbine with highest marks was the XM8, a gun with a Star Wars look that the Army considered buying just a few years ago but didn't. The program collapsed due to bureaucratic infighting and questionable acquisition methods.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: army; banglist; colt; m4; test
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To: flowerplough

Or did I mean: Kalashnikov ?

21 posted on 04/20/2008 12:25:58 PM PDT by flowerplough (I suck at Photoshop)
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To: MindBender26

It’s called sectional density. Weight to length ratio. The 6.5 has it in spades. The 6.5 Swede isn’t popular for nothing.

Truly a great bullet diameter and “do all” caliber.

22 posted on 04/20/2008 12:28:13 PM PDT by headstamp 2 (Been here before)
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To: Constitutional Patriot
I’d keep the M4 — it’s battle tested/proven, unlike some of the other participants in the exercise.

In most environments except hard desert conditions you could not get me to give up mine. Parts availability and continuity are outstanding. Accessories, general knowledge, it’s all there.

However, I will not go below the full 16" barrel. That is to say 16” not counting the flash suppressor. M-4 barrels are around 14" and that is the VERY bottom of the performance curve for the 556 / 223. Velocity is right about 2,400. The 16" barrel will rock in at around 3,100 fps.

Your mileage may vary…

23 posted on 04/20/2008 12:28:35 PM PDT by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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To: NVDave

Thanks for the treatise on the 6.5.

My 6.5X50R wildcat Contender salutes you.


24 posted on 04/20/2008 12:33:07 PM PDT by headstamp 2 (Been here before)
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To: Chode

25 posted on 04/20/2008 12:39:57 PM PDT by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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To: Dawnsblood

Look, just make the fit and finish on the M4 as lousy as you possibly can so that all the parts kind of flap and rattle about as you’re marching along. Then the gun will quickly and naturally slough off any gravel that gets wedged into its inner spaces and you can keep firing the damned thing all day long, through thick and thin... ‘Course, you couldn’t hit anything with it, sort of like the AK-47, but you’d have a legend on your hands.

26 posted on 04/20/2008 12:48:44 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: Dawnsblood; All

The M4 is NOT a gas/piston operated system. The rest are.

As with all military testing, the results have been pre-determined. Example: The original AR-15 Aberdeen tests against the M14, where the AR's were literally destroyed before a shot was fired, and they failed miserably because of it>

When the military wants something new, or more cash, they can create that illusion.

Now, the M16/M4 system is reliable within it's parameters af keeping it clean. This report has none of the real details, number of rounds between cleanings, ammunition, temperature, etc.

And why use some convuluted 'simulated' dist, instead of the real thing?

This does not pass the smell test.

27 posted on 04/20/2008 12:49:17 PM PDT by Pistolshot (When you let what you are define who you are, you create racial divisiveness.)
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To: Constitutional Patriot; NVDave
I would not normally give up my AR's BUT if I could get this...

Netherlands NM-1 that snazzy 6.5 x 284 NVDave is refering to I would give it some serious thought.

28 posted on 04/20/2008 12:50:43 PM PDT by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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To: Joe Brower; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Dawnsblood; big'ol_freeper; Squantos; ...
An excerpt - Colt's grip on military rifle market called bad deal

Associated Press Writer

Related Multimedia
Compare the M4 and Other Rifles

HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) -- No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives. Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press.

"What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.

The M4, which can shoot hundreds of bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

"And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to."

U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available.

"There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense."

Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in

The rest of the article -

29 posted on 04/20/2008 12:53:23 PM PDT by SLB (Wyoming's Alan Simpson on the Washington press - "all you get is controversy, crap and confusion")
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To: TLI; Dawnsblood; Constitutional Patriot; umgud

That looks like a plastic toy gun I would have played with when I was a kid back in the 1960’s.

30 posted on 04/20/2008 12:55:50 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative
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31 posted on 04/20/2008 12:56:40 PM PDT by Cobra64 (
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“Netherlands NM-1”

Really? To me it looks like an Israeli Galil —and the Israelis got rid of their Galils and replaced them with M4’s and M16A2s if I recall correctly!

32 posted on 04/20/2008 12:58:26 PM PDT by Towed_Jumper (Stephen Hopkins: Founding Father who had Cerebral Palsy.."My hand trembles, my heart does not.")
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To: headstamp 2; NVDave
Posted for confirmation:

They're pushing the .30s pretty hard, I'd say.

33 posted on 04/20/2008 12:59:50 PM PDT by pa_dweller (South of the border - a phrase fast losing its meaning)
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To: flowerplough
Jesu Cristo! WTF? Why didn’t the fools include Klashnikov’s 7.62x39 Model of Nineteen-fricking-Forty-Seven in the test!?!? The 882 stops for the M4 pro’ly woulda been 88.2 stops for the 60-year-old-design AK!

The Klashnikov's don't have any paid lobbyists. It's not about the men's lives it's about the lobbyists and political connections. If it was about effect, that would rebuild the Thompson in 44 cal for house to house and change down range weapon to the short and long vervion of the FNL or H&K 91 in 308. Don't fix it if it not broke.

34 posted on 04/20/2008 1:00:40 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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Image hosted by yo...
35 posted on 04/20/2008 1:08:35 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist ©®)
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To: Cobra64
Ha. I love the fact here is a full blown assault rifle and there is a “danger” decal for the laser sight.
36 posted on 04/20/2008 1:09:09 PM PDT by llevrok (I didn't use drugs in the 60's but will in my 60's.......)
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At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced,

Especially at the volume in which the military purchases.

37 posted on 04/20/2008 1:17:09 PM PDT by glorgau
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To: NVDave

I 2nd your observations. I think our brass have avoided the 6.5 because the Euro’s discovered it first.

I am a big fan of 6.5’s and am building a couple of converted Mausers in .260 Remington right now. One is for the wife and the other for me. I just turned/contoured/threaded/chambered her barrel. They are gonna be a matched pair, if I can find 2 stock blanks cut from next to each other.

38 posted on 04/20/2008 1:18:45 PM PDT by ExpatGator (Extending logic since 1961.)
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To: Dawnsblood

I want one so that if a liberal sees me with one he will wet his pants.

39 posted on 04/20/2008 1:20:41 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Cobra64
The Masada is showing promise...


40 posted on 04/20/2008 1:21:02 PM PDT by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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