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Colt's Grip on Military Rifle Market Called Bad Deal
yahoo.com ^ | 4/20/2008 | RICHARD LARDNER

Posted on 04/20/2008 1:10:11 PM PDT by kellynla

No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives.

Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press.

"What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.

The M4, which can shoot hundreds of bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

"And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to."

U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available.

"There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense."

Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it might begin looking for a totally new weapon.

"We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says.

William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will undermine the confidence the troops have in it.

"The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think he's wrong."

In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight.

And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times. Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report.

Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say.

The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't.

Or won't.

"All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four years ago.

The dispute over the M4 has been overshadowed by larger but not necessarily more important concerns. When the public's attention is focused on the annual defense budget, it tends to be captured by bigger-ticket items, like the Air Force's F-22 Raptors that cost $160 million each.

The Raptor, a radar-evading jet fighter, has never been used in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the troops who patrol Baghdad's still-dangerous neighborhoods or track insurgents along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, there's no piece of gear more critical than the rifles on their shoulders. They go everywhere with them, even to the bathroom and the chow hall.

Yet the military has a poor track record for getting high-quality firearms to warfighters. Since the Revolutionary War, mountains of red tape, oversize egos and never-ending arguments over bullet size and gunpowder have delayed or doomed promising efforts.

The M16, designed by the visionary gunsmith Eugene Stoner, had such a rough entry into military service in the mid-1960s that a congressional oversight committee assailed the Army for behavior that bordered on criminal negligence.

Stoner's lighter, more accurate rifle was competing against a heavier, more powerful gun the Army had heavily invested in. To accept the M16 would be to acknowledge a huge mistake, and ordnance officials did as much as they could to keep from buying the new automatic weapon. They continually fooled with Stoner's design.

"The Army, if anything, was trying to sideline and sabotage it," said Richard Colton, a historian with the Springfield Armory Museum in Massachusetts.

Despite the hurdles, the M16 would become the military's main battlefield rifle. And Colt, a company founded nearly 170 years ago by Hartford native Samuel Colt, was the primary manufacturer. Hundreds of thousands of M16s have been produced over the years for the U.S. military and foreign customers. Along with Colt, FNMI, an FN Herstal subsidiary in South Carolina, has also produced M16s.

Development of the carbine was driven by a need for a condensed weapon that could be used in tight spaces but still had plenty of punch. Colt's answer was the 7 1/2-pound M4. The design allowed the company to leverage the tooling used for the M16.

In 1994, Colt was awarded a no-bid contract to make the weapons. Since then, it has sold more than 400,000 to the U.S. military.

Along the way, Colt's hold has been threatened but not broken.

In 1996, a Navy office improperly released Colt's M4 blueprints, giving nearly two dozen contractors a look at the carbine's inner workings. Colt was ready to sue the U.S. government for the breach. The company wanted between $50 million and $70 million in damages.

Cooler heads prevailed. The Defense Department didn't want to lose its only source for the M4, and Colt didn't want to stop selling to its best customer.

The result was an agreement that made Colt the sole player in the U.S. military carbine market. FNMI challenged the deal in federal court but lost.

And since the Sept. 11 attacks, sales have skyrocketed.

The Army, the carbine's heaviest user, is outfitting all its front-line combat units with M4s. The Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and special operations forces also carry M4s. So do U.S. law enforcement agencies and militaries in many NATO countries.

More than $300 million has been spent on 221,000 of the carbines over the past two years alone. And the Defense Department is asking Congress to provide another $230 million for 136,000 more.

Keane, the retired Army general, knows how difficult it is to develop and deliver a brand-new rifle to the troops. As vice chief of staff, the Army's second highest-ranking officer, Keane pushed for the acquisition of a carbine called the XM8.

The futuristic-looking rifle was designed by Heckler & Koch. According to Keane, the XM8 represented the gains made in firearms technology over the past 40 years.

The XM8 would cost less and operate far longer without being lubricated or cleaned than the M4 could, Heckler & Koch promised. The project became bogged down by bureaucracy, however. In 2005, after $33 million had been invested, the XM8 was shelved. A subsequent audit by the Pentagon inspector general concluded the program didn't follow the military's strict acquisition rules.

Keane blames a bloated and risk-averse bureaucracy for the XM8's demise.

"This is all about people not wanting to move out and do something different," Keane says. "Why are they afraid of the competition?"

As Colt pumps out 800 new M4s every day to meet U.S. and overseas demand, the company is remodeling its aging 270,000-square-foot facility in a hardscrabble section of Connecticut's capital city. New tooling and metal cutting machines have been installed as part of a $10 million plant improvement.

Many of the old ways remain, however. Brick-lined pit furnaces dating back to the 1960s are still used to temper steel rifle barrels.

"Modernizing the plant while trying to maintain quality and meet deliveries has been a challenge," says James Battaglini, Colt's chief operating officer.

Within military circles there are M4 defectors. U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., was one of the carbine's first customers. But the elite commando units using the M4 soured on it; the rifle had to be cleaned too often and couldn't hold up under the heavy use by Army Green Berets and Navy SEALs.

When the M16 was condensed into an M4, the barrel and other key parts had to be shortened. That changed the way the gun operated and not for the better, concluded an internal report written seven years ago by special operations officials but never published. Dangerous problems ranged from broken bolt assemblies, loose and ruptured barrels, and cartridges stuck in the firing chamber.

"Jamming can and will occur for a variety of reasons," the report said. "Several types of jams, however, are 'catastrophic' jams; because one of our operators could die in a firefight while trying to clear them."

Pointing to the report's unpublished status, Colt has disputed its findings. The M4 has been continually improved over the years, says Keys, the company's chief executive. The M4 may not meet the exacting standards of U.S. commando forces, he adds, but it fills the requirements spelled out by the regular Army.

Special Operations Command is replacing the M4s and several other rifles in its arsenal with FN Herstal's SCAR, which comes in two models: one shoots the same 5.56 mm round as the M4; the other a larger 7.62 mm bullet and costs several hundred dollars more. Both SCARs can accommodate different-size barrels allowing the weapons to be fired at multiple ranges.

The SCARs are more accurate, more reliable and expected to last far longer than their predecessors, said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Marc Boyd, a command spokesman.

"SOCOM likes to be different," says Keys of Colt, using the acronym for the command. "They wanted something unique."

With the SCAR not yet in full-scale production, Heckler & Koch's HK416 is being used by elite units like Delta Force, the secretive anti-terrorism unit. The command would not comment on the HK416 other than to say there are "a small number" of the carbines in its inventory.

A key difference between the Colt carbine and the competitors is the way the rounds are fed through the rifle at lightning speed.

The SCAR and HK416 use a gas piston system to cycle the bullets automatically. The M4 uses "gas impingement," a method that pushes hot carbon-fouled gas through critical parts of the gun, according to detractors. Without frequent and careful maintenance, they say, the M4 is prone to jamming and will wear out more quickly than its gas-piston competitors.

"A gas piston system runs a little bit smoother and a lot cleaner," says Dale Bohner, a retired Air Force commando who now works for Heckler & Koch. "If the U.S. military opened up a competition for all manufacturers, I see the 416 being a major player in that."

The top half of the Heckler & Koch gun — a section known as the upper receiver that includes the barrel and the gas piston — fits on the lower half of the M4. So if the military wanted a low-cost replacement option, it could buy HK416 upper receivers and mate them with the lower part of the M4 for about $900 a conversion, according to Bohner.

Yet outside of Special Operations Command, there seems to be no rush to replace the M4.

Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, head of the Army office that buys M4s and other combat gear, traveled to Iraq and Afghanistan last summer to get feedback from soldiers on Colt's carbine.

"I didn't hear one single negative comment," Brown says. "Now, I know I'm a general, and when I go up and talk to a private, they're going to say everything's OK, everything's fine. I said, 'No, no, son. I flew 14,000 miles out here to see you on the border of Afghanistan. The reason I did that was to find out what's happening.'"

Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., says the troops may not be aware of the alternatives. He wants the Pentagon to study the options and make a decision before Congress does.

"Sen. Coburn has raised a good question: 'Do we have the best personal weapon?' And I don't know that we do," Sessions said. "We're not comfortable now. Let's give this a rigorous examination."

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TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Government
KEYWORDS: arms; banglist; colt; m4; war
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 04/20/2008 1:10:11 PM PDT by kellynla
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At 1500 somalians, is the M4 the “best bang for the buck?”


2 posted on 04/20/2008 1:11:46 PM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: kellynla

Keep Congress out of it.


3 posted on 04/20/2008 1:13:34 PM PDT by golfisnr1 (Democrats are like roaches - hard to get rid of.)
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To: kellynla

kinda nice to keep the business and money in the US, ask american companies to develop a new model. HK416 is pretty cool and HK certainly has its paid lobbyists in the US Congress.


4 posted on 04/20/2008 1:15:25 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: driftdiver

If it is only about money, I’m sure China makes some inexpensive arms.


5 posted on 04/20/2008 1:23:12 PM PDT by BallyBill (Serial Hit-N-Run poster)
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To: kellynla

So what’s Coburn got in mind? Norinco? Kalashnikov?


6 posted on 04/20/2008 1:24:56 PM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: kellynla

This pretty much seems like a hit piece on Colt. If there are problems with the gun, by all means fix it or put out another bid for design and price and replace the thing.

Keep production in the United States.

Someone is always belching about a corporation making money of the U.S. Government and wars. That’s the way it works. If you put out a good product, you should get fair return. A healthy company makes for a good source when quality merchandise is required.

Since when is it a business concern to give product away, just because the purchaser is the federal government.


7 posted on 04/20/2008 1:25:39 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: DoughtyOne

‘Since when is it a business concern to give product away, just because the purchaser is the federal government.”

man you’ve apparently never dealt with a contracting officer for the federal government. those folks are TIGHT


8 posted on 04/20/2008 1:29:23 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: DoughtyOne

doncha know?

Defense firms are obligated to put out products that perform perfectly (in spite of the governments inability to define the requirements) and guaranty the taxpayers they are making no profit on the contract.


9 posted on 04/20/2008 1:29:44 PM PDT by G Larry (HILLARY CARE = DYING IN LINE!)
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To: driftdiver

Probably so. I haven’t. Thanks.


10 posted on 04/20/2008 1:32:45 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: G Larry

Sorta seems like it.


11 posted on 04/20/2008 1:33:12 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: kellynla
according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press

I almost stopped reading right there. Maybe there's something in it, and maybe there isn't. But I don't trust AP, and I don't much trust congresscritters either, until I know who's paying them off.

The weapons jam in the sand? Well, weapons tend to do that. But is it a design flaw, or just a necessary consequence of using any weapons in a country with frequent sand storms?

12 posted on 04/20/2008 1:35:29 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: DoughtyOne

I was just agreeing with you in an off hand confused sort of way. its pretty amazing how complicated the procurement process is. the sheer amount of bureaucracy is mind boggling.


13 posted on 04/20/2008 1:42:51 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: DoughtyOne

I agree. Colt could easily buy H&K’s piston system patent and introduce them in their weapons...better yet...someone in America should introduce something similar.


14 posted on 04/20/2008 1:44:07 PM PDT by I got the rope
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To: Cicero

Theres an en episode of future weapons where the host demonstrates the HK416 at the companies range. They stuff it in a box of sand and then take it out, shake it off and shoot it full auto for about 30 rds. Then they stick it in a tub of water and do the same.

Looks cool, but I have no idea if its really that great. Regardless I don’t like the idea of depending on a foreign company for our main battle rifle.


15 posted on 04/20/2008 1:45:29 PM PDT by driftdiver
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It would be interesting to see how many of the Army Logistics Command employees end up on the Colt payroll after retirement.


16 posted on 04/20/2008 1:46:48 PM PDT by ktime
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To: kellynla
It being in Connecticut is reason enough to get away from it. The New England States are the Cesspool of America,just after San Fran and NYC.
17 posted on 04/20/2008 1:52:24 PM PDT by gunnedah
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
It would be enlightening to know exactly what is delivered for $1,500 a copy for the M4, assuming that's the actual price to start with. This is the ignorant and arrogant MSM, after all.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

18 posted on 04/20/2008 1:56:20 PM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: kellynla
"And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers.

"William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield.

Which is it. someone is not being truthful

19 posted on 04/20/2008 1:58:28 PM PDT by chainsaw ( No black racist Muslims in the WH either)
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To: kellynla

Colt is overpriced. So is HK and FN


20 posted on 04/20/2008 2:01:11 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kellynla
... pushes hot carbon-fouled gas through critical parts of the gun, according to detractors.

Well, there's the problem right there! The carbine has a serious carbon footprint problem. If a more sustainable, non-carbon technology were used, everything would be alright.

21 posted on 04/20/2008 2:01:55 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: kellynla

Maybe we should give the contract to the Chinese. They make everything else we use. And I’m repeatedly told what a wonderful weapon the AK is.


22 posted on 04/20/2008 2:03:41 PM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: driftdiver; DoughtyOne

>>I was just agreeing with you in an off hand confused sort of way. its pretty amazing how complicated the procurement process is. the sheer amount of bureaucracy is mind boggling.

My thought was, that’s probably a $900 or so rifle in the quantities we’re dealing with here, and the balance is the cost of dealing with the bureaucracy.


23 posted on 04/20/2008 2:07:15 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (<===Bitter, Gun-totin', Typical White American)
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To: kellynla
NO,

NO


24 posted on 04/20/2008 2:07:46 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: kellynla

Well there are many companies making commercial semi-auto versions of the gun and $1500 is easy to spend buying one of their rifles. So, no, it’s now way out of range in my opinion.


25 posted on 04/20/2008 2:09:26 PM PDT by Jack Black
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To: driftdiver

That’s the way I took your comments. I’m sure it is a major pain to deal the govenment bids/purchasers. No offense taken at all.

Thanks. I appreciate it.


26 posted on 04/20/2008 2:14:06 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: FreedomPoster

That’s an interesting take, and it would be an eye opener to know just how close you are on that.


27 posted on 04/20/2008 2:15:06 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: I got the rope

That makes sense to me. Good points.


28 posted on 04/20/2008 2:16:15 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: Jack Black
Accurised 308 $950

At 16 lbs it aint fit for battle though

29 posted on 04/20/2008 2:19:29 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kellynla

M14’s could go mud diving, and the M16 had a total sand phobia.

7.62 was nice too.

But I’m just an ancient kinda guy that saw that stupid move first hand and I always liked 8oz workout gloves punching the heavy bag. :-)

Semper Fi


30 posted on 04/20/2008 2:19:56 PM PDT by JoeSixPack1
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To: driftdiver
Regardless I don’t like the idea of depending on a foreign company for our main battle rifle.

FN makes the SAW, and our main handgun is a Baretta. But I know at least the Baretta is made in the US (which, BTW, caused some quality issues).

31 posted on 04/20/2008 2:23:34 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: kellynla

You can buy quality M4 knock-offs, with better gas systems, from American companies; all day long for less than $1100.00 per copy. Much less, I’d imagine, if you ordered in governmental quantities.

Time for Colt to bite the big one.


32 posted on 04/20/2008 2:44:20 PM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: driftdiver
Theres an en episode of future weapons where the host demonstrates the HK416 at the companies range. They stuff it in a box of sand and then take it out, shake it off and shoot it full auto for about 30 rds. Then they stick it in a tub of water and do the same.

that show is fun to watch and not bad if one realizes it is one big infomercial. there you can say cut and re shoot in a battle not as easy.

33 posted on 04/20/2008 2:47:56 PM PDT by mouser (run the rats out its the only hope we have)
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To: kellynla
By all means lets go offshore and buy our weapons. That nasty Colt is getting rich by making American arms. Perhaps we can find a better weapon someplace, maybe Russia?
34 posted on 04/20/2008 2:49:11 PM PDT by ANGGAPO (LayteGulf BeachClub)
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To: DoughtyOne
Since when is it a business concern to give product away, just because the purchaser is the federal government.

Good point. Colt made a mint selling their revolvers to the Federal Government during the Civil War.

35 posted on 04/20/2008 3:01:10 PM PDT by Inyo-Mono (If you don't want people to get your goat, don't tell them where it's tied.)
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To: Cicero
But is it a design flaw, or just a necessary consequence of using any weapons in a country with frequent sand storms?

"The M4 uses 'gas impingement,' a method that pushes hot carbon-fouled gas through critical parts of the gun, according to detractors."

The gas blows right into the little tube on the top of the bolt carrier assembly in the upper receiver. It's a stupid design, IMHO. The extractor retaining pin failed on me at a very bad time. It broke in half.


5 is the bolt carrier. 4 is the bolt with the extractor pinned in place on its side. I wouldn't pay for a 'gas impingement' design.

36 posted on 04/20/2008 3:11:23 PM PDT by neverdem (I'm praying for a Divine Intervention.)
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To: kellynla

Magpul Masada....nuff said.


37 posted on 04/20/2008 3:35:21 PM PDT by Carbonsteel
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To: kellynla
The M4, which can shoot hundreds of bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

The controlled tests of the Colt, H&K, and FN showed the M4 coming out on the bottom in reliability in sand, with one stoppage in every 600 rounds. The other two were a bit better, but all three clustered around the 98% reliability rate. Most stoppages were quickly cleared, as troops are trained to do. "Catastrophic" stoppages were rare on all three.

All of these weapons are just about as close to perfect reliability as is possible to get. Tinkering at the margin to get another .1% costs lots of money, with no detectable difference to the troop.

Frequency of maintenance is a factor, but no professional soldier wants to abuse his rifle just for the hell of it. In the cavalry, you take care of your horse before yourself. For infantry, it's your rifle. Both are your only personal means of salvation.

The FN and H&K can both be considered evolutionary improvements of the M16/M4. All use the M16 magazine, although I'll admit the H&K version is the Rolls Royce of M16 mags, and the most expensive. Both are attempts to move away from the gas-tube system of the M16, which was revolutionary in that it cut down on moving parts, and therefore costs. It also brought hot chamber gas deep into the bolt carrier.

All three are fine weapons, and if I had the money, I'd buy one of each (in semi-auto only, of course). When I have to consider millions of weapons and parts already in the field, I'd have to be much more cautious, since I don't want to cause an upheaval over weapons systems that come within a few percentage points of each other.

Another thing to consider is that all three are priced about the same. Anybody who knows anything about manufacturing will tell you that there are only so many ways of milling aluminum, forging steel, and molding plastic. I can't speak to anybody's profit margins (or R&D costs), but none of them are the "magic bullet" that brings the cost down to the $17 it costs Chinese slave labor to make a AK47. Also, the price on all of them seems to include some sort of fancy optics, where the real weapons progress has been made in this war. These sights, with proper training, allow our troops to drop the bad guy further and faster than the sh!thead can even conceive.

38 posted on 04/20/2008 3:36:05 PM PDT by 300winmag (Life is hard! It is even harder when you are stupid!)
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To: antiRepublicrat; driftdiver

I’m pretty sure the SAW is, too, at a plant in SC. I think I learned that on another FR thread in the last couple of years. Dig around on FN’s web site to confirm, if you like.


39 posted on 04/20/2008 3:37:35 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (<===Bitter, Gun-totin', Typical White American)
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To: Jack Black

>As Colt pumps out 800 new M4s every day to meet U.S. and overseas demand,<

Can the other companies match 800 new rifles per day? I would imagine that has something to do with why they were selected.


40 posted on 04/20/2008 3:41:55 PM PDT by B4Ranch ( Rope, Tree & Traitor; Some Assembly Required || Gun Control Means Never Having To Say I Missed You)
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To: driftdiver
Theres an en episode of future weapons where the host demonstrates the HK416 at the companies range. They stuff it in a box of sand and then take it out, shake it off and shoot it full auto for about 30 rds. Then they stick it in a tub of water and do the same.

It probably does a better job at sealing its critical parts from the dirt than the M-4. Colt may be able to do minor design changes to the M-4 that could make it comparable to the HK416 at protecting it from the elements.

41 posted on 04/20/2008 3:59:58 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: 300winmag

I’ve always wondered if a heavier caliber, perhaps in the .30 range, might not be a better investment.


42 posted on 04/20/2008 4:07:18 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: Jack Black
So, no, it’s now way out of range in my opinion.

And what was the price of the firearms just fifteen years ago, before all the assault gun band BS. You could buy an m16 for about $350.00, to $400.00 and an AK style for 125.00 and an sks was about $89.00.. The good old politicians.

43 posted on 04/20/2008 4:10:42 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: mylife
At 16 lbs it aint fit for battle though

Damn shame

44 posted on 04/20/2008 4:12:29 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: clee1

I question the $1500 per rifle. I’ve spoken with folks who reported the base M16A1 cost under $200 a copy at government rates. Could be way off of course.


45 posted on 04/20/2008 4:13:03 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: org.whodat

Almost bought one. I still prolly will


46 posted on 04/20/2008 4:15:33 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: B4Ranch
Can the other companies match 800 new rifles per day? I would imagine that has something to do with why they were selected.

The better question is , why do we need 800 new one's a day?? Are they so bad that breakage is that high.

47 posted on 04/20/2008 4:15:43 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: mylife

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/category.aspx?id=9


48 posted on 04/20/2008 4:22:20 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: org.whodat

cool gun porn


49 posted on 04/20/2008 4:23:26 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: org.whodat

Yup.. I like the Panther.

Its just heavy as hell


50 posted on 04/20/2008 4:23:39 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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