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Colt's Grip on Military Rifle Market Called Bad Deal
yahoo.com ^ | 4/20/2008 | RICHARD LARDNER

Posted on 04/20/2008 1:10:11 PM PDT by kellynla

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1 posted on 04/20/2008 1:10:11 PM PDT by kellynla
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At 1500 somalians, is the M4 the “best bang for the buck?”


2 posted on 04/20/2008 1:11:46 PM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: kellynla

Keep Congress out of it.


3 posted on 04/20/2008 1:13:34 PM PDT by golfisnr1 (Democrats are like roaches - hard to get rid of.)
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To: kellynla

kinda nice to keep the business and money in the US, ask american companies to develop a new model. HK416 is pretty cool and HK certainly has its paid lobbyists in the US Congress.


4 posted on 04/20/2008 1:15:25 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: driftdiver

If it is only about money, I’m sure China makes some inexpensive arms.


5 posted on 04/20/2008 1:23:12 PM PDT by BallyBill (Serial Hit-N-Run poster)
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To: kellynla

So what’s Coburn got in mind? Norinco? Kalashnikov?


6 posted on 04/20/2008 1:24:56 PM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: kellynla

This pretty much seems like a hit piece on Colt. If there are problems with the gun, by all means fix it or put out another bid for design and price and replace the thing.

Keep production in the United States.

Someone is always belching about a corporation making money of the U.S. Government and wars. That’s the way it works. If you put out a good product, you should get fair return. A healthy company makes for a good source when quality merchandise is required.

Since when is it a business concern to give product away, just because the purchaser is the federal government.


7 posted on 04/20/2008 1:25:39 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: DoughtyOne

‘Since when is it a business concern to give product away, just because the purchaser is the federal government.”

man you’ve apparently never dealt with a contracting officer for the federal government. those folks are TIGHT


8 posted on 04/20/2008 1:29:23 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: DoughtyOne

doncha know?

Defense firms are obligated to put out products that perform perfectly (in spite of the governments inability to define the requirements) and guaranty the taxpayers they are making no profit on the contract.


9 posted on 04/20/2008 1:29:44 PM PDT by G Larry (HILLARY CARE = DYING IN LINE!)
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To: driftdiver

Probably so. I haven’t. Thanks.


10 posted on 04/20/2008 1:32:45 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: G Larry

Sorta seems like it.


11 posted on 04/20/2008 1:33:12 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: kellynla
according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press

I almost stopped reading right there. Maybe there's something in it, and maybe there isn't. But I don't trust AP, and I don't much trust congresscritters either, until I know who's paying them off.

The weapons jam in the sand? Well, weapons tend to do that. But is it a design flaw, or just a necessary consequence of using any weapons in a country with frequent sand storms?

12 posted on 04/20/2008 1:35:29 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: DoughtyOne

I was just agreeing with you in an off hand confused sort of way. its pretty amazing how complicated the procurement process is. the sheer amount of bureaucracy is mind boggling.


13 posted on 04/20/2008 1:42:51 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: DoughtyOne

I agree. Colt could easily buy H&K’s piston system patent and introduce them in their weapons...better yet...someone in America should introduce something similar.


14 posted on 04/20/2008 1:44:07 PM PDT by I got the rope
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To: Cicero

Theres an en episode of future weapons where the host demonstrates the HK416 at the companies range. They stuff it in a box of sand and then take it out, shake it off and shoot it full auto for about 30 rds. Then they stick it in a tub of water and do the same.

Looks cool, but I have no idea if its really that great. Regardless I don’t like the idea of depending on a foreign company for our main battle rifle.


15 posted on 04/20/2008 1:45:29 PM PDT by driftdiver
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It would be interesting to see how many of the Army Logistics Command employees end up on the Colt payroll after retirement.


16 posted on 04/20/2008 1:46:48 PM PDT by ktime
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To: kellynla
It being in Connecticut is reason enough to get away from it. The New England States are the Cesspool of America,just after San Fran and NYC.
17 posted on 04/20/2008 1:52:24 PM PDT by gunnedah
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
It would be enlightening to know exactly what is delivered for $1,500 a copy for the M4, assuming that's the actual price to start with. This is the ignorant and arrogant MSM, after all.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

18 posted on 04/20/2008 1:56:20 PM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: kellynla
"And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers.

"William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield.

Which is it. someone is not being truthful

19 posted on 04/20/2008 1:58:28 PM PDT by chainsaw ( No black racist Muslims in the WH either)
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To: kellynla

Colt is overpriced. So is HK and FN


20 posted on 04/20/2008 2:01:11 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kellynla
... pushes hot carbon-fouled gas through critical parts of the gun, according to detractors.

Well, there's the problem right there! The carbine has a serious carbon footprint problem. If a more sustainable, non-carbon technology were used, everything would be alright.

21 posted on 04/20/2008 2:01:55 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: kellynla

Maybe we should give the contract to the Chinese. They make everything else we use. And I’m repeatedly told what a wonderful weapon the AK is.


22 posted on 04/20/2008 2:03:41 PM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: driftdiver; DoughtyOne

>>I was just agreeing with you in an off hand confused sort of way. its pretty amazing how complicated the procurement process is. the sheer amount of bureaucracy is mind boggling.

My thought was, that’s probably a $900 or so rifle in the quantities we’re dealing with here, and the balance is the cost of dealing with the bureaucracy.


23 posted on 04/20/2008 2:07:15 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (<===Bitter, Gun-totin', Typical White American)
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To: kellynla
NO,

NO


24 posted on 04/20/2008 2:07:46 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: kellynla

Well there are many companies making commercial semi-auto versions of the gun and $1500 is easy to spend buying one of their rifles. So, no, it’s now way out of range in my opinion.


25 posted on 04/20/2008 2:09:26 PM PDT by Jack Black
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To: driftdiver

That’s the way I took your comments. I’m sure it is a major pain to deal the govenment bids/purchasers. No offense taken at all.

Thanks. I appreciate it.


26 posted on 04/20/2008 2:14:06 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: FreedomPoster

That’s an interesting take, and it would be an eye opener to know just how close you are on that.


27 posted on 04/20/2008 2:15:06 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: I got the rope

That makes sense to me. Good points.


28 posted on 04/20/2008 2:16:15 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (It doesn't matter he isn't conservative. Now it doesn't matter if it's not Constitutional.)
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To: Jack Black
Accurised 308 $950

At 16 lbs it aint fit for battle though

29 posted on 04/20/2008 2:19:29 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: kellynla

M14’s could go mud diving, and the M16 had a total sand phobia.

7.62 was nice too.

But I’m just an ancient kinda guy that saw that stupid move first hand and I always liked 8oz workout gloves punching the heavy bag. :-)

Semper Fi


30 posted on 04/20/2008 2:19:56 PM PDT by JoeSixPack1
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To: driftdiver
Regardless I don’t like the idea of depending on a foreign company for our main battle rifle.

FN makes the SAW, and our main handgun is a Baretta. But I know at least the Baretta is made in the US (which, BTW, caused some quality issues).

31 posted on 04/20/2008 2:23:34 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: kellynla

You can buy quality M4 knock-offs, with better gas systems, from American companies; all day long for less than $1100.00 per copy. Much less, I’d imagine, if you ordered in governmental quantities.

Time for Colt to bite the big one.


32 posted on 04/20/2008 2:44:20 PM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: driftdiver
Theres an en episode of future weapons where the host demonstrates the HK416 at the companies range. They stuff it in a box of sand and then take it out, shake it off and shoot it full auto for about 30 rds. Then they stick it in a tub of water and do the same.

that show is fun to watch and not bad if one realizes it is one big infomercial. there you can say cut and re shoot in a battle not as easy.

33 posted on 04/20/2008 2:47:56 PM PDT by mouser (run the rats out its the only hope we have)
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To: kellynla
By all means lets go offshore and buy our weapons. That nasty Colt is getting rich by making American arms. Perhaps we can find a better weapon someplace, maybe Russia?
34 posted on 04/20/2008 2:49:11 PM PDT by ANGGAPO (LayteGulf BeachClub)
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To: DoughtyOne
Since when is it a business concern to give product away, just because the purchaser is the federal government.

Good point. Colt made a mint selling their revolvers to the Federal Government during the Civil War.

35 posted on 04/20/2008 3:01:10 PM PDT by Inyo-Mono (If you don't want people to get your goat, don't tell them where it's tied.)
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To: Cicero
But is it a design flaw, or just a necessary consequence of using any weapons in a country with frequent sand storms?

"The M4 uses 'gas impingement,' a method that pushes hot carbon-fouled gas through critical parts of the gun, according to detractors."

The gas blows right into the little tube on the top of the bolt carrier assembly in the upper receiver. It's a stupid design, IMHO. The extractor retaining pin failed on me at a very bad time. It broke in half.


5 is the bolt carrier. 4 is the bolt with the extractor pinned in place on its side. I wouldn't pay for a 'gas impingement' design.

36 posted on 04/20/2008 3:11:23 PM PDT by neverdem (I'm praying for a Divine Intervention.)
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To: kellynla

Magpul Masada....nuff said.


37 posted on 04/20/2008 3:35:21 PM PDT by Carbonsteel
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To: kellynla
The M4, which can shoot hundreds of bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

The controlled tests of the Colt, H&K, and FN showed the M4 coming out on the bottom in reliability in sand, with one stoppage in every 600 rounds. The other two were a bit better, but all three clustered around the 98% reliability rate. Most stoppages were quickly cleared, as troops are trained to do. "Catastrophic" stoppages were rare on all three.

All of these weapons are just about as close to perfect reliability as is possible to get. Tinkering at the margin to get another .1% costs lots of money, with no detectable difference to the troop.

Frequency of maintenance is a factor, but no professional soldier wants to abuse his rifle just for the hell of it. In the cavalry, you take care of your horse before yourself. For infantry, it's your rifle. Both are your only personal means of salvation.

The FN and H&K can both be considered evolutionary improvements of the M16/M4. All use the M16 magazine, although I'll admit the H&K version is the Rolls Royce of M16 mags, and the most expensive. Both are attempts to move away from the gas-tube system of the M16, which was revolutionary in that it cut down on moving parts, and therefore costs. It also brought hot chamber gas deep into the bolt carrier.

All three are fine weapons, and if I had the money, I'd buy one of each (in semi-auto only, of course). When I have to consider millions of weapons and parts already in the field, I'd have to be much more cautious, since I don't want to cause an upheaval over weapons systems that come within a few percentage points of each other.

Another thing to consider is that all three are priced about the same. Anybody who knows anything about manufacturing will tell you that there are only so many ways of milling aluminum, forging steel, and molding plastic. I can't speak to anybody's profit margins (or R&D costs), but none of them are the "magic bullet" that brings the cost down to the $17 it costs Chinese slave labor to make a AK47. Also, the price on all of them seems to include some sort of fancy optics, where the real weapons progress has been made in this war. These sights, with proper training, allow our troops to drop the bad guy further and faster than the sh!thead can even conceive.

38 posted on 04/20/2008 3:36:05 PM PDT by 300winmag (Life is hard! It is even harder when you are stupid!)
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To: antiRepublicrat; driftdiver

I’m pretty sure the SAW is, too, at a plant in SC. I think I learned that on another FR thread in the last couple of years. Dig around on FN’s web site to confirm, if you like.


39 posted on 04/20/2008 3:37:35 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (<===Bitter, Gun-totin', Typical White American)
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To: Jack Black

>As Colt pumps out 800 new M4s every day to meet U.S. and overseas demand,<

Can the other companies match 800 new rifles per day? I would imagine that has something to do with why they were selected.


40 posted on 04/20/2008 3:41:55 PM PDT by B4Ranch ( Rope, Tree & Traitor; Some Assembly Required || Gun Control Means Never Having To Say I Missed You)
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To: driftdiver
Theres an en episode of future weapons where the host demonstrates the HK416 at the companies range. They stuff it in a box of sand and then take it out, shake it off and shoot it full auto for about 30 rds. Then they stick it in a tub of water and do the same.

It probably does a better job at sealing its critical parts from the dirt than the M-4. Colt may be able to do minor design changes to the M-4 that could make it comparable to the HK416 at protecting it from the elements.

41 posted on 04/20/2008 3:59:58 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: 300winmag

I’ve always wondered if a heavier caliber, perhaps in the .30 range, might not be a better investment.


42 posted on 04/20/2008 4:07:18 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: Jack Black
So, no, it’s now way out of range in my opinion.

And what was the price of the firearms just fifteen years ago, before all the assault gun band BS. You could buy an m16 for about $350.00, to $400.00 and an AK style for 125.00 and an sks was about $89.00.. The good old politicians.

43 posted on 04/20/2008 4:10:42 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: mylife
At 16 lbs it aint fit for battle though

Damn shame

44 posted on 04/20/2008 4:12:29 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: clee1

I question the $1500 per rifle. I’ve spoken with folks who reported the base M16A1 cost under $200 a copy at government rates. Could be way off of course.


45 posted on 04/20/2008 4:13:03 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: org.whodat

Almost bought one. I still prolly will


46 posted on 04/20/2008 4:15:33 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: B4Ranch
Can the other companies match 800 new rifles per day? I would imagine that has something to do with why they were selected.

The better question is , why do we need 800 new one's a day?? Are they so bad that breakage is that high.

47 posted on 04/20/2008 4:15:43 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: mylife

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/category.aspx?id=9


48 posted on 04/20/2008 4:22:20 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: org.whodat

cool gun porn


49 posted on 04/20/2008 4:23:26 PM PDT by driftdiver
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To: org.whodat

Yup.. I like the Panther.

Its just heavy as hell


50 posted on 04/20/2008 4:23:39 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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