Posted on 04/23/2008 2:45:49 PM PDT by Red6
BERLIN, Germany (CNN) -- A German warship was involved in fending off Monday's pirate attack on a Japanese tanker near the coast of Somalia, a spokesman for the German armed forces said Wednesday.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
Within Germany there is a general reluctance to do anything regards security and defense. The political climate is one where the German politician generally does not want to stick his neck out, since military action is inherently ugly, expensive, and risky. Since the end of the Cold War, the entire threat perception has vanished at least for the layperson, and for most Germans Iran, Libya, Syria, Somalia, are all places far away for which they have no concern. Of course, like most Americans in the pre-911 era who thought Islamic terror was a distant alien thing that does not affect us, in a global world that is not the case. The national security of Germany as well as her economic dependence may that be water and air ways, intellectual property, access to strategic resources, and even regional security is all tied into a much larger "global" perspective today. The thinking present when a wall stood and restricted movement, people couldn't afford air travel, populations were homogenous, a world before e-banking, proliferation of technology used in weaponry, massive trade on a global scale, the cell phone and internet allows for such a small and narrow world view reference security. This is all simply antiquated today. Even the threats within Germany, the US, UK, France and Netherlands often trace back to places with names like Pakistan, Iran, or Afghanistan. Globalization is a reality, and many understand this concept in an economic sense, but they fail to realize that it applies to security matters as well. In the day and age where Iran is developing missiles with a 6,000km range, the thought of thinking in terms of “my back yard” is dangerous.
Relations specific security is a touchy issue today. Within Germany there is somewhat of a desire to assert one self. This is based on the reality that Germany was occupied by the Allied forces, plays second fiddle in near all security issues involving the US, and that there are some anti-US undertones in society that manifest themselves in near all issues. The US plowing the way in the GWOT (world wide), Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Libya (2004 was our breakthrough there), and with Israel has by virtue of leadership and presence gotten much negative press. This would be the case regardless of who the President is, unless his actions would have been inaction after 911. Germany chose a path in Afghanistan and Israel post 2006 Lebanon invasion that was for minimal participation and stayed out of Iraq. The perception of what is going on in Iraq at this point is so far skewed and entrenched that it’s near senseless to have a reasonable debate with a German on this topic. Furthermore, reference Iraq and even sadly Afghanistan, it’s difficult to do anything without loosing face for some within the German political arena. However, since the Merkel government came to power, there does appear to be a general push or acceptance towards greater involvement, may that be to allow German planes to drop bombs (something unfortunately voted down) or German naval vessels securing crucial water ways, lighting up pirates off the coast of Somalia and sitting off the shore of Lebanon. This is a good thing! Even if it’s impossible to help in Iraq or they can’t do more in Afghanistan, maybe they can do things elsewhere that work towards our collective security interests in the West. Like after Mogadishu 1977, this is the sort of stuff that should make one proud! Strength is not found by falling into the backs of those who won’t shoot back and are on your side, that’s cowardice. Strength and courage is facing off an enemy that might shoot back and while scared, STILL doing the right thing. Is this a trend? Is this possibly the beginning of a Germany that really does take on a leadership role in this world and not define strength as opposing the US as so often is the case with the impotent among the free nations? I hope so.
Those pirates sure have been busy lately.
LOL—the WWI Emden? I thought it was sunk not too far from there.
It worked so well, last two times they tried.
Germany has been emasculated and will never rise again.
Heavily armed vessels disguised as Cruise ships. When the rat bastards pull up, you drop the cover and shred their crafts (along with them).
Pirates off the Coast of Muslim Somalia wouldn’t by any chance be Muslims? The liberal mainstream media would never say if they were Muslims. They are always insurgents, terrorists, ethnic Albanians, pirates etc. anything but Muslims which they are.
That is an argument that I have floated and fear might have some credence.
WWI, WWII, the brain drain post WWII, the destruction of the Jewish population and their fleeing, Cold War socialization, and the importation of large quantities of non Judea-Christian cultures have created a society that no $hit really does live by the concept of “rather dead than red” or “rather live on my knees than die on my feet.” But I really do hope I’m wrong.
It is ironic since many Germans will blame even their appeasing pacifist self on the US, stating that this is the result of US post war pacification. LOL
We shall see. It is of course even in our interest if Germany is not the depleted nation we both think she is.
Of course they’re Muslims. Somalia is something like 98% Sunni Muslim.
That’ll do ‘er.
the WWI Emden
It would be nice if were 98% uninhabited.
Back about 2000 or so, I overheard an NPR spot that talked about German youths and their take on things.
The German kids, all college-age, were spouting things like “Patriotism is bad”, “There is nothing worth going to war over”, and “nationalism is a disease of thugs”.
This, I thought is the new generation of the once-proud people who stood against opressors for thousands of years, NEVER backed down from a fight, a race who bore us some of the bravest adventurers, the most innovative ideas, and the mightiest of heroes.
And they have been reduced to this.
Once you have the young, the future is yours. Marxism has triumphed over the German people, and we will not see the like of their forefathers again.
Kaiserliche Marine Emden 1916 - Scuttled Scapa Flow 1918 
Reichsmarine/Kriegsmarine Emden 1925 - decomissionmed 1945 
Bundesmarine Emden 1961 - sold 1983 to Turkey 
Bundesmarine/Deutsche Marine Emden 1983 - current
Well shiver me knockwurt.
HOZE-EM!!! 
“The German kids, all college-age, were spouting things like “Patriotism is bad”, “There is nothing worth going to war over”, and “nationalism is a disease of thugs”.”
Sheesh. I could have sworn you were talking about many among the youth in the US.
Excellent historical reporting. Thanks.
You raise some more interesting points that relate to the “Cold War socialization” I was referring too; but also a dogma that has infested Europe as far back as 160 years when the communist and socialist movements began. The Germans are not unique in this aspect; most of Europe has a powerful socialist undertone. It’s the result of the big socialist movements in the mid-late 1800s, then the so called national socialists like Franco, Mussolini and Hitler (Same ideas, different package), finally the Cold War and the heavy propagandization of the East and to some extent the West of Europe. I realized years ago, that socialism is simply a part of culture and near inseparable from these people. Even if they grew up in the DDR and were oppressed, studied business after the wall fell in the West, took a job in the US for some multinational firm making good money, they will sit there and tell their friends how great it is when you have an “Ordentliche Sozialpolitik.” Basically, socialism is part of the identity of being German and the nation Germany at this point.
In Germany the general perception is that patriotism and nationalism equates to NAZI. Of course in a nation and culture with a love affair of socialism you’ll seldom hear voices speak out, “But ah, actually the NAZI’s were socialists.”
It is because of our patriotism and nationalist attitude that they in fact often refer to us as modern day Nazi’s (Some on their left like to do that, another irony I guess). But yes, the German sees no danger in a state that disarms its citizens, where near 50% of the GDP is somehow under state control, that is highly centralized with all the power sitting in Berlin……… To a German someone waving a flag, that’s someone you need to keep a close eye on, and patriotism is like admitting you have a set of jackboots in the closet.
I guess the crux of your argument is that socialism leads to a societies decline, and I would agree. Socialism is an “ersatz Religion.” Socialism is inherently anti-God, anti-free will, anti-free market, anti-family, and centralized. Even if one disregaurds the inherent economic failings of this idea, in a social context, it destroys a society slowly from the inside out. Socialism becomes the end, and isn’t the means to an end once enacted. The people serve the system, not the system the people and in such systems may that be Mao, Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot, or Stalin, human life becomes meaningless and expendable. Germany of course is careful reference everything that is perceived as national socialist and they have a good degree of free market and some decentralization (though not much), but I would agree that the nanny state of socialism which ALWAYS takes away freedom and liberty for some perceived security blanket has largely contributed to the decay of this once great culture and society. Think about this; before they went down the road of socialism some of the greatest theological arguments came from them! Germany today largely secular was the birth place of Martin Luther, Kant………. You can literally see by the schools of philosopher’s and ideas make a switch when they began going down this road in the mid-late 1800s which Nietzsche being the prime example.
In a society that lives for the day, has no concept of duty, no patriotism, where on an individual level many folks can be described as nihilist and hedonistic, where does a family fit in? Where does service to country fit in? Do people like that believe anything is worth dying for? Are these the sort of people that live by principals and values? All that is soon left is rave parties, love parades, singles that never get married and women that choose to never have kids. It becomes a giant relativist mess that bestows the title “intellectual” upon itself but is in pursuit of the most primitive and simple pleasures without consequence. It would infringe on their hedonist “lifestyle” to have kids or get married. I know I was very metaphysical and abstract, but I do believe that socialism like a viral disease sickens a society, and we are infected too; just not as bad, yet.
I suspect that pretty near all western college-age kids are taught such stuff in school, not just Germans.
I would suggest not underestimating the Germans, and I mean it in a good sense. First, consider the basics:
Germany's population is 82 million, compared to about 300 million Americans and 750 million total Europeans. So, a mere 82 million Germans, versus nearly a billion other westerners, if they make enemies, would sort of put them in the same class as Israel compared to it's neighbors.
Germany's economy is second or third largest in the world (I forget which), and per capita income one of the highest. Until recently, German incomes were about 1/3 less than Americans. Today, with the US dollar devalued, German living standards have risen, relatively speaking.
And Germans could easily have a higher standard of living that Americans, if they were willing to work as hard as Americans. But they don't -- nowhere near as hard. They love their vacations, holidays and paid absences, and are happy to sacrifice a bit of living standard to get them.
Still, I think it's fair to say that German economic influence pervades all of Europe.
And as you explained, they carry the tax burdens of a socialized welfare state.
Thanks to US and NATO military protection, Germans spend only about 1.5% of GDP on national defense. US post-war military spending reached 15% during the Korean War, has declined slowly ever since, but recently rose from around 3.5% to over 4% now.
So now, consider a volk who are strong economically, when they chose to work, but relatively weak militarily. Might I suggest: Germans as the new Jews of Europe?
Ich weiß das, strudelkopf!
Der Bismarck war solch ein schönes Schiff, und es ist zu schlecht, dass Deutschland es jetzt nicht hat, um sich mit diesen moslemischen Piraten zu befassen.
You’re confusing and mixing several different things here. Standard of living calculations take into account “cost of living,” and the fact that the dollar has devalued will only make a marginal difference which will mostly play out in effect through some inflationary aspects, such as the cost of fuel. When you look at total purchasing power and the number of those with internet access, TVs, cars, square footage of living space per capita for example, nothing will change, despite a change in conversion rates. Most Germans still can’t afford a house, they will still live in smaller homes, own less and smaller cars, have less phones, TVs, internet access, boats, privately owned aircraft….. per capita. In shear material wealth, the fact that the dollar has devalued will make a marginal difference in standard of living and while in some pure academic exercise one could make some bogus economic comparisons, the true measures of economic volume won’t change either. Our total industrial capacity is still three times theirs, we still have more than 3.5 times as many people in the work force and a higher productivity……… Money is actually an abstract thing and nothing more than a measure of worth in human time when you really get down to it. There is more to the adage, “time is money,” than meets the eye. What a weaker dollar will do however is shift the balance in trade long term. Don’t expect the huge trade deficits to remain, expect more investment by international firms in the US for those products they intend to sell here.………
Germany is the third largest economy, depending on how you figure it. No matter how you figure it though, within a few years they will be bumped to position 4 and then 5 because of the growth in Asia and rise of China and India. The Germans have more or less economically flat-lined when looking at it in a macro economic way.
**** “Thanks to US and NATO military protection, Germans spend only about 1.5% of GDP on national defense. US post-war military spending reached 15% during the Korean War, has declined slowly ever since, but recently rose from around 3.5% to over 4% now.”
And that exactly is the problem.
Others, besides us, also pay more. The UK and France typically run close to us on defense spending, with the exception being in war. The point is simple, something many attempt to spin into a virtue amounts to nothing other than “freeloading” or “mooching.” The Germans didn’t even contribute their share during the Cold War when their own rear was on the line! And here’s the problem with all this. The threats we face and our national interests are mutual or parallel in all geo-political interests. Those who do not contribute are neither moral nor do they really have a better plan of action on how to deal with these threats and problems, they simply want to hang out in our and others shadow and do nothing letting others pay for it politically, economically, and in blood. Libya or missile defense are recent and perfect examples. As with the Cold War, though their own survival depended on it, their M.O. has been to do as little as possible and their focus was entirely within their own boarders. The Balkans, something they realized they could not ignore once 250,000 refugees sat in camps scattered all throughout Germany defines the far reaches of the German universe, as it pertains to security matters. Of course the Soviet threat wasn’t limited to Germany and was global too, and then like today they didn’t deal with this threat outside their narrow world. As the third most populous nation in the West, the third largest Western economic power behind the US and Japan, they are not carrying their weight, and that does matter. German ships do cruise through the water ways of the Malacca, Suez and Panama canal etc.; Germans do die from narcotics made in Columbia; they are threatened by a radical Islamic and rouge states like Libya or Iran; they are an information society that will live or die by intellectual property; they do require the importation of cesium, gold, platinum, oil and other resources to keep their industry and high tech economy alive; they do understand that regional stability is necessary if not already, at least after the Balkans they figured that out; the Germans on an individual level do like to consume an international pallet of food, cloths, entertainment and other products and services………. I don’t attempt to define weakness as strength, I won’t excuse their Schadenfreude and Scheinheiligkeit for us reference Iraq, Iran, and AQ. I don’t use Heuschelei to justify their inaction or retreat post 911. But I also don’t wish their demise; on the contrary, I hope that some of the signs coming from Germany are subtle but positive.
The Germans aren’t anything like the Jewish population. The Jewish population isn’t secular and they had no state, no nation which their culture called home. They were a nationless subculture living in host countries oppressed over centuries. The Jewish people are not hiding from the threat they face, and despite being attacked repeatedly they neither stick their head in the sand nor do they scream to the world that they are victims. They are a people keenly aware of where they stand and who is around them and they will fight until the last drop of blood to preserve their state and culture even if all odds are against them. That doesn’t describe the Germans, whom I personally saw pleading for surrender and appeasement in face of the Soviet threat. The Germans love to paint themselves as victims. The Germans even paint themselves as victims of the Nazi’s, they were victims in the Cold War, and they are victims of the global American blood sucking corporations according to their media. They blamed AIDS on the US, they see themselves as victims of US intelligence, and they even attempted to paint it as if they are paying for the US forces in Germany…………. They even blame their own impotence on us, claiming it was the post war pacification. From global warming to the tsunami, or in their mind conspiring grand schemes of currency manipulations and oil plots by the US, the German is the eternal victim, but he in reality likes to make others his “Suendenbock.” When the dollar was high they said we were intentionally inflating the dollar for our benefit, and of course this was crushing our economy. Now that the dollar is low, they spin it 180 degrees the other way and argue we are trying to devalue the dollar to get out from debt, no matter what, they are the victims of a grand scheme and the new boogieman is almost always the US. Years past it was the Jews, today it’s the American and the only constant remains that the German sees himself the victim while he shoves people into the ovens or ignores the genocide in the Balkans, until of course they loose the war or 250,000 Bosnians sit in his back yard. No, there are no comparisons between the Jews/Israel and Germans/Germany. Israel stands on her feet, Germany crawls on her knees, and even here is irony since those who scream that Germany should stand up , or that the growing secularism and left drift in society are bad, they are made out as the bad guys. Maybe Germany passed a cultural point of no return? I don’t know.
I don't disagree. I was just trying to be a little humorous, taking a cheap shot, though possibly not quite as far off the mark as you suggest.
I was thinking of the pre-war Jewish population, which had no state to defend them, but, at least in Germans' imaginations, did very well economically -- to the point where Jews were supposedly powerful enough to pull all kinds of economic strings to the Germans' detriment.
It's not fair, of course -- the German state does at least protect Germans in Germany. Pre-war Jews never had any defenders.
Nevertheless, suppose we say it in the form of a question: how much does economically powerful Germany today resemble the fevered imaginations of pre-war Germans regarding the Jews?
You can of course blame metrosexuality, faithlessness or whatever, but most of the time Germany had a large military because of their geographic position in a divided Europe, or because of the Cold War. Both has lost tremendous importance. And Germany has never really projected a lot of influence beyond Europe.
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