isn't she the same silly cow that said Osama built schools for GIRLS??? i'd take anything she says with a cow-lick of salt.
Posted on 04/24/2008 4:18:51 PM PDT by infantrywhooah
After learning that more than 17 veterans per month commit suicide while under the care of the Veterans Affairs Department, senators accused VA of withholding information about suicide rates and demanded the removal of its mental health chief.
“The culture of the VA has to change,” said Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., after a Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee hearing Wednesday.
To restore credibility, she said VA must take responsibility and dismiss Dr. Ira Katz, deputy chief patient care services officer for mental health.
“He clearly knew information and was holding it from us here in Congress,” Murray said.
Deputy VA Secretary Gordon Mansfield said he shared Murray’s concerns, but stopped short of taking responsibility for them.
“I apologize for the implications here,” he said, adding that he does not believe VA is engaged in a concerted campaign to withhold information.
Sen. Daniel Akaka, D-Hawaii, chairman of the committee, backed the call for Katz’s resignation.
The accusations began flying Monday after a lawsuit brought to light a series of e-mails about high suicide numbers from Katz.
Murray quoted Katz writing in one e-mail:
“Shh! Our suicide prevention coordinators are identifying about 1,000 suicide attempts per month among veterans in our medical facilities.”
Murray noted that Katz’s wondered in his e-mail if VA should try to address the numbers in “some sort of release before someone stumbles on it.”
Katz had just appeared before Congress April 3 and did not mention any problem like that.
Akaka said he was concerned about a potential “suicide epidemic” within the Defense Department and VA.
“We know information about suicides is being suppressed,” he said.
David Chu, undersecretary for personnel and readiness, said the military numbers have been fairly consistent. Although the number of suicides in the Army has gone up over the past year, the “good news” is that the rate is still below the national average.
However, several critics have called into question the value of comparing a generally young military force that has been screened for mental health — as well as general health — to the general population.
Mansfield said the number of veterans who commit suicide under VA care rose from 1,403 in 2001 to 1,784 in 2005.
He did not give recent figures. Although he said he is not the “expert on numbers ... I don’t know that I would call it an epidemic.”
He also said the numbers would be expected to rise slightly in wartime.
But some senators said they see a need for a better response.
“I don’t think there’s any attempt to intentionally not share information,” said Sen. Richard Burr, R-N.C. But he noted the importance of getting veterans into treatment programs — especially after a Rand report released last week estimated that 300,000 veterans have post-traumatic stress disorder or severe depression.
Murray, who clenched her jaw and seemed to shake with anger during the discussion, said she is tired of spending “every day for five-and-a-half years” trying to drag information out of VA.
She said a study showed 6,250 veterans killed themselves in 2005 — and in his e-mails, Katz “not only backed up those numbers, but said they were much higher.”
“I’m very upset,” Murray said. “In VA, everyone knew it was higher and there are e-mails showing us that. How do we trust what you’re saying ... if what you’re saying publicly is different from what you’ve said privately? How do we trust what you’re saying today?”
The officials were on the Hill to testify about simplifying the transfer of medical files between VA and the Defense Department.
Chu said they hoped to have most documents viewable — though not available in an interactive way — by September.
But the senators focused much of their time on the suicide issue in light of the newly discovered e-mails.
“The whole culture is repressing information,” Murray told the witnesses. “We are not your enemy. We are your support system.”
She said Congress can’t help VA with funding or legislation if it doesn’t get good information.
Mansfield said he would do all he can to get correct information to the senators.
“In the end, [lying] bites you every time,” said Rep. Jon Tester, D-Mont.
The rate is lower than society at large. I wouldn’t put too much stock in what Patty Murray says, ever.
Is it? What are the historical numbers? What are the numbers compared to the general population?
They also fall into a group more likely to be successful if they are suicidal. Men, especially older men have a much higher completion rate of suicide then do teens and women.
It’s John Kerry’s fault.
I’ve said years ago that the VA should be shut down and soldiers given care in regular hospitals. Not only would the soldiers fare better, we would also save a ton of money.
I will wait for more information to come out about this claim. I believe nothing I hear from Democrats concerning the military.
Wasn’t there a guy by the name of Brown in the Clinton administration who said the VA hospitals were the best in the world? I guess Hillarycare would be similar to this.
Uhh...yeah, Ms Murray, the dems are the enemy.
That said, this story gives no context. I assume that this is all Vets, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, up to the present. They want you to believe that it is only Vets from "Bush's War". The only use that dems have for Vets is to scorn them and use them to hurt the war effort.
The quality of VA Health Care is highly variable depending on location. Some locations provide really excellent care, while others provide markedly sub-standard care. A lot of it is dependant on case load and funds. One thing is a common thread, however, cost cutting and penny pinching is the rule of the day. And the soldiers come up on the short end of the stick.
Well then lets close down the VA hospitals and let we disabled war vets get better and less expensive treatment elsewhere...
Are we all fools.
I figured.
If Patty Murray is involved...bet on it.
isn't she the same silly cow that said Osama built schools for GIRLS??? i'd take anything she says with a cow-lick of salt.
Please. He’s got tons of competition for that title.
In 2002 or 2003 the American Journal of Public Health showed veterans suffering depression are seven to eight times more likely to commit suicide than the general population. At least 800,000 veterans are under VA care for depression at any given time.
The figures used to be 90/100,000 vets suicided while comparable figures for males in general population is about 17-18/100,000.
The biggest problem with these statistics is what is not tabulated--age and also percentage of suicides associated with alcoholism either primary or secondary. Especially, in older males, those suffering from alcoholism are especially prone to suicide.
A more specific problem is the assumption that a skilled clinician can accurately predict who is going to suicide and who is not. It is possible to come up with a laundry list of factors--presence of alcoholism, depression, lack of support system and so forth; however, there is a problem with the statistics of rare events.
For example, suicidal thoughts are very common in depressed people. So much so that it is noted that there may be up to 100 or more times suicidal thoughts whereas the number of resultant suicides is very small. It becomes almost an art form and luck, then, to prevent suicides since you cannot confine (hospitalize) everyone with suicidal thoughts, depression, alcoholism and so forth.
I cannot imagine the VA hiding there statistics. They have been reporting these for some time and have requested funds, etc.
I suspect that the RATS are trying to make the VA look callous and unhelpful for political reasons. Other than this motivation there is no real explanation for their claims.
Does the 17 a month rate include old veterans of Nam, Korea and WWII?
And Snickersnee has said it before and will say it again: if you close the VA hospitals, vets will stand in line for care behind welfare queens and illegal aliens.
That makes no sense. They will go to the head of the line.
Thank you for the first intelligent post on this thread.
In the last 2 years the VA has begun serious, intense initiatives to deal with suicidal ideation, attempts and with those factors that may indicate a higher possibility of suicide. There are now VA Suicide Prevention Coordinators in every part of the country whose only job is to train VA employees (professional and non professionals, as well as mental health and primary care providers in the community) to identify those veterans who may be more at risk. These Suicide Prevention Coordinators also work with a National Suicide Htoline for Veterans taking referrals ( as well as referrals from VA mental health and primary care professionals ) to track veterans at risk, to call them to assist their getting help and to make sure that if there are any factors ( ie missed appointments) that crop up, interventions can be followed up.
There is no way to prevent someone from committing suicide if they are determined to do that. We do not “lock people up” in psychiatric hospitals forever just because they have had depression or suicidal thoughts.
The VA is very committed to doing everyhting they can to help veterans. As for those Freeprs who know nothing about mental health, medical care or the VA and say “ lets let vets get private “better” care....HA>HA>HA!!! “ The VA across the board offers WAY better medical and psychiatric care...try to get a 45 minute follow up visit with a private psychiatrist. Or how about a 90 DAY substance RESIDENTIAL abuse program? In the private sector you MAY get 28 days with the very very best insurance.
Some of these comments remind me of the Liberal who just wrote a VA bashing book where she said, “Oh, we know what’s wrong, its soooo simple, ANYONE could solve the problem in 4 hours.!”
You raise some good points.
I call baloney on some of the dreadful statistics.
The VA has the right person, in the right spot, right now!
“...17 veterans per month commit suicide while under the care of the Veterans Affairs Department...”
OOOOO>>RAH !!!
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