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Recruiting the undocumented for the military is proposed
http://www.tampabay.com/news/military/article474777.ece ^ | April 26, 2008 | Jose Cardenas

Posted on 04/27/2008 2:00:26 AM PDT by Antonio C

CLEARWATER — This month's death of Army Spc. Arturo Huerta-Cruz in Iraq cast a spotlight on troops serving in the U.S. military who are not American citizens.

Huerta-Cruz, 23, was born in a small town in rural Mexico and moved to Clearwater with his family when he was 10. He was a legal permanent resident, or a "green card" soldier.

That made him an exception. Noncitizens account for about 5 percent of the troops in all the branches of the U.S. military. Noncitizens now must have green cards to enlist.

But as the nation fights wars on two fronts, some wonder whether the military should recruit more heavily among immigrants here — even undocumented ones — as well as foreigners in their own countries.

Yes, say some intellectuals at Washington, D.C., think tanks.

"Those of us who support recruiting foreigners believe they are often very skilled, motivated, and in the great American tradition of immigration," Michael O'Hanlon, a Brookings Institution senior fellow on foreign policy said in an e-mail.

The "Dream Act" bill that failed in Congress last year would have done more than legalize undocumented high school students who aspire to college. It also would have given green cards to undocumented high school students who served in the military.

Such students "are well educated, they are not troublemakers, they are bilingual," said Jorge Mariscal, a professor of Latino studies at the University of California, San Diego.

"The military wants to get their hands on those folks," added Mariscal, a Vietnam veteran.

The nonprofit CNA Corp. based in Virginia has recommended mining the legal immigrant community more heavily for military recruits.

"One overlooked source of military manpower is immigrants and their families," according to a 2005 report by CNA, which advises public employers on issues ranging from national security to international affairs.

"In fact," the organization concluded, "much of the growth in the recruitment-eligible population will come from immigration."

• • •

Along with immigrant groups who have fought for the United States — Irish-Americans in the Civil War, for example — noncitizens also have enlisted since the Revolutionary War.

Green card soldiers have received widespread publicity during the Iraq war because some of the first casualties were Latin-American immigrants.

One was Lance Cpl. Jose Antonio Gutierrez, 22, from Southern California.

Gutierrez was an orphan in Guatemala. Fleeing poverty, he came to the United States illegally. In Southern California, he entered the foster care system and got a green card.

He joined the Marines.

He was killed on March 21, 2003, by enemy fire as American troops tried to secure Umm Qasr. A movie about him, The Short Life of Jose Antonio Gutierrez, was released last year.

After the war started, President Bush signed an executive order allowing immigrants in the military to apply for citizenship immediately. Congress followed with legislation that shortened the time that immigrants in the military have to wait during peacetime to apply for citizenship, from three years to one year.

As of February, there were 20,326 immigrants in active duty in all branches of the military. Another 13,151 were in the Reserves.

• • •

It's a small slice of the military, but CNA recommends that the armed forces should target more legal immigrants as recruits.

The foreign-born population in the United States at the time of the CNA report — 12 percent — was at least twice as high as their representation in the military.

Also, a third of the world's population is younger than 15, and many of those young people will make their way to the United States, where some will become legal residents.

For the military, the linguistic and cultural diversity of noncitizens are especially valuable, the CNA authors said.

They add that many immigrants are interested in the expedited process for citizenship that enlisted immigrants receive.

Meanwhile, O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution and Council on Foreign Relations senior fellow Max Boot have called for a "new chapter in the annals of American immigration."

Their proposal: give foreigners recruited from other countries as well as those already here citizenship after four years of military service. That, they believe, could create a path toward assimilation for undocumented immigrants without green cards. Besides, they note, the military already relaxed age and other restrictions, including those accepting enlistees with criminal records, to meet recruiting goals.

"The idea of offering citizenship to foreigners who first join the armed forces should be a winner for everyone," they wrote in the Washington Post in 2006. "It is good for immigrants. … It is good for a beleaguered American military that is simply too small for the tasks it has been handed."

• • •

Not surprisingly, others oppose the idea of increasing the number of noncitizens fighting for American ideals.

The military would become a low-wage occupation like other industries now dominated by immigrants, warns Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, which favors more restrictive immigration policies.

"If enlisting were a way to get legalized or a way to get into the United States," Krikorian said, "soldiering would become a job Americans would not do very rapidly."

Some in the Hispanic community, already weary of recruitment among its youths, agree.

Said Mariscal: "It would be another example of the exploitation of cheap labor."

Even now, American citizenship is not guaranteed for immigrant serving in the military, Mariscal said. Meanwhile, some countries strip their nationals of citizenship if they serve in foreign militaries.

"Those people who did it would have no country," Mariscal said.

In Clearwater, Huerta-Cruz — one of 144 immigrants who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001 — was buried Tuesday.

Calvary Catholic Cemetery on U.S. 19 is his final resting place.

And one day, the United States could become his home country.

That's because Army officials have said they will seek posthumous citizenship for Huerta-Cruz.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: afghanistan; aliens; gangs; illegalaliens; illegals; immigration; iraq; naturalization; recruitment; usmilitary; wot
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 04/27/2008 2:00:26 AM PDT by Antonio C
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To: Antonio C

Hell, why not just the conscription of foreigners into the military?
Mexicans who pass out drunk after eating the worm in a port town could wake up the next day on a naval vessel headed for the Persian Gulf...


2 posted on 04/27/2008 2:23:26 AM PDT by counterpunch (John McCain for President - Because we need VICTORY in Iraq, not RETREAT)
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To: Antonio C

Hey what did good old George Washington do? Fought for his citizenship. So long as they aren’t gang affiliated, isn’t someone willing to die for this country exactly the sort of person we WANT to become an American citizen?


3 posted on 04/27/2008 2:23:43 AM PDT by Bastiat_Fan (Please don't call me a PaulTard... Surrender Monkey is so much more pleasing to the ears!)
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To: Antonio C

Why not let them enlist and then pay them to “guard” the southern border? Surprised el presidente hasn’t tried this out yet as a job that “Americans just won’t do.” /sarc


4 posted on 04/27/2008 2:26:07 AM PDT by peyton randolph (Vote for the Dim in the primaries that leads to a brokered convention and chaos)
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To: Antonio C

> But as the nation fights wars on two fronts, some wonder whether the military should recruit more heavily among immigrants here — even undocumented ones — as well as foreigners in their own countries.

Built along the French Foreign Legion lines, this idea could work quite well.


5 posted on 04/27/2008 2:26:21 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: Antonio C

I’d rather see us recruit them — forcibly — into several years of hard labor building the wall, before being sent back to their native countries with “Property of the [Mexican, for example] government” tattoed on their foreheads.


6 posted on 04/27/2008 2:32:26 AM PDT by Maceman
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To: Antonio C

OK, let’s do it. Then we can “station” all the illegals in their country of origin. Problem solved.


7 posted on 04/27/2008 2:33:38 AM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (~"This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps !"~~)
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To: Antonio C

Does America Need A Foreign Legion?
http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/new/article056.html


8 posted on 04/27/2008 2:40:13 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (McCain could never convince me to vote for him. Only Hillary or Obama can!)
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To: peyton randolph

I like your thinking.


9 posted on 04/27/2008 3:25:20 AM PDT by Bushbacker1 (Kill 'em til they're dead, then kill 'em again!)
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To: fieldmarshaldj
OK, let’s do it. Then we can “station” all the illegals, along with their families, in their country of origin. Problem solved.

I edited your comment just a bit.

10 posted on 04/27/2008 3:28:11 AM PDT by Bushbacker1 (Kill 'em til they're dead, then kill 'em again!)
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To: Antonio C
"give foreigners recruited from other countries as well as those already here citizenship after four years of military service. "

Lemme see, if 100,000 foreigners signed up tomorrow, in four years we'd have...

11 posted on 04/27/2008 3:31:14 AM PDT by endthematrix (He was shouting 'Allah!' but I didn't hear that. It just sounded like a lot of crap to me.)
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To: Bushbacker1

That’ll work. ;-)


12 posted on 04/27/2008 3:47:51 AM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (~"This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps !"~~)
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To: Antonio C

Is it really difficult to get a green card. Why not just apply for the green card and then enlist. Does not sound unreasonable.


13 posted on 04/27/2008 3:53:45 AM PDT by napscoordinator
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To: napscoordinator
Why not just apply for the green card and then enlist. Does not sound unreasonable.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Agreed. Every recruiting office should be able to say: " You want to stay in the US? Apply for a green card and enlist , 5 years to run parallel with your green card requirement of continuous residence before applying for US citizenship. You complete your service honorably, you can become a US citizen.

The ones that do not want to enlist? Arrest them and send 'em home.

14 posted on 04/27/2008 4:25:32 AM PDT by Candor7 (Fascism? All it takes is for good men to say nothing.)
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To: Antonio C

Couldn’t be more wrong.
Ask the Romans how they made out with Visigoths in their army.


15 posted on 04/27/2008 4:28:42 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com (The republic is over kids!)
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To: Antonio C

Shows a real clear understanding of how the military works.


16 posted on 04/27/2008 4:32:02 AM PDT by anton
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
I'm no historian but if my memory serves me right you are more than correct with the problems the Romans had by incorporating non-citizens into their military structure. Just look at the problems we're having with recent espionage cases. These were naturalized Americans selling secrets to the foreign countries of their ancestry.
17 posted on 04/27/2008 4:35:11 AM PDT by RU88 (The false messiah can not change water into wine any more than he can get unity from diversity.)
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To: RU88

It is suicide to take invading criminals and train them as part of the world’s greatest military.

When they get out they go back and form a real invasion force, or settle in here as a fifth column.

The U.S. seems bent on suicide.


18 posted on 04/27/2008 4:42:47 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com (The republic is over kids!)
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To: Bastiat_Fan

Hey what did good old George Washington do? Fought for his citizenship. So long as they aren’t gang affiliated, isn’t someone willing to die for this country exactly the sort of person we WANT to become an American citizen?
________________

That will bring even more illegal aliens here both men and woman who want into our military. Most illegal Mexican/Central Americans are illiterates. We can publish special comic books for them on how to operate say— a howitzer

Yeah— Get illegal alien women into our military where they can make papusas and anchor babies


19 posted on 04/27/2008 5:09:59 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com

Your post is dead on.


20 posted on 04/27/2008 5:12:16 AM PDT by nygoose
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To: Antonio C

Right out of the ancient Roman playbook; Rome was well on its way to falling when it began to rely heavily on non-citizen soldiers.


21 posted on 04/27/2008 5:12:20 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: Antonio C

Our army going the way of Rome with the legions made up of foreign mercenaries ?????????????


22 posted on 04/27/2008 5:15:03 AM PDT by uncbob
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To: Bastiat_Fan
...isn’t someone willing to die for this country exactly the sort of person we WANT to become an American citizen?

How do you distinguish "willingness to die for this country" from "willing to do anything to get out of that God-forsaken mess that is Mexico?"
23 posted on 04/27/2008 5:27:27 AM PDT by ruination
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To: Antonio C
But as the nation fights wars on two fronts, some wonder whether the military should recruit more heavily among immigrants here — even undocumented ones — as well as foreigners in their own countries.

Isn't that known as a mercenary?

24 posted on 04/27/2008 5:48:28 AM PDT by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote!)
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To: Antonio C
...the military should recruit more heavily among immigrants here...

Here we go again! All "immigrants" are NOT illegal and ALL immigrants are NOT Latino (as some on this thread seem to believe). I have a (now) 21 year old step son who has taken (and passed) the entrance exam for the U.S. Army. He is not allowed to enlist even though is is a LEGAL immigrant, he does not have the green card he applied for 3 years ago. He is Russian! He was told that his application would be processed in about 3 months. It has now been 3 years ans is still counting.

The system is broken! There is no reason why he should not be allowed to enlist. He has been cleared by a FBI background check that was done before he was allowed to immigrate. He has been legally in this country for over 3 years and hasn't blown anything up in that time. He has nothing illegal to prevent him from becoming a permanent resident (and citizen) since entering this country.

So, allowing immigrants (LEGAL immigrants) to enlist regardless of their "permanent residence" status seems perfectly o.k. to me! Once they voluntarily raise their hand an swear allegiance to the U.S. thereby putting themselves under the rules and regulations of the U.S. military, there is absolutely no reason they should not be allowed to serve in our military.

25 posted on 04/27/2008 5:54:23 AM PDT by TexasRedeye (Eschew obfuscation)
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To: Antonio C

More MSM propaganda for the Dream Act and stealth amnesty. We don’t need mercenaries to fight for our country.


26 posted on 04/27/2008 5:56:56 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Antonio C

Lousy Headline and premise. DoD already heavily recruits foreign born, non-American citizens and has for quite some time. This makes it sound like there should be some breakthrough from an oppression that doesn’t exist.


27 posted on 04/27/2008 5:58:54 AM PDT by TADSLOS (John McCain never met a liberal he wasn't eager to apologize to.)
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To: DieHard the Hunter
Built along the French Foreign Legion lines, this idea could work quite well.

We are not France. We don't need or want military service to be the vehicle for amnesty. It demeans those who currently serve or have served. As a veteran, I find your suggestion offensive.

28 posted on 04/27/2008 6:02:02 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Antonio C

American citizens are going to volunteer to serve in units full of illegal aliens? Right. Why don’t we make them gay illegal aliens and go all the way?

There a so many holes in this line of thinking that it makes cheesecloth appear impermeable. Talk about a slippery slope.


29 posted on 04/27/2008 6:02:35 AM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s........you weren't really there)
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To: Antonio C

Oh yeah, that’s the ticket. Let’s hire mercenaries, Goths, Vandals and any other trash to patrol the empire for us. Seems to me I’ve read that story before.

Hand me another grape, won’t you?


30 posted on 04/27/2008 6:08:24 AM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Don't cheer for Obama too hard - the krinton syndicate is moving back into the WH.)
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To: TexasRedeye
He is not allowed to enlist even though is is a LEGAL immigrant, he does not have the green card he applied for 3 years ago

He must have a green card [legal permanent resident] before he can be accepted by the Army. It does take more than three years to get a green card under many circumstances. Your son may be a LEGAL immigrant, but he is not a legal PERMANENT resident. He can't obtain a SS number until he becomes a LPR.

31 posted on 04/27/2008 6:09:16 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Antonio C
Yes, say some intellectuals at Washington, D.C., think tanks.

"Some intellectuals." Jeeze, not even a consensus as in "global warming."

How do these idiots manage to make a living. Oh, yeah, grants by equally "intellectual" agenda driven rich idiots.

32 posted on 04/27/2008 6:32:49 AM PDT by CPOSharky (Energy plan: Build refineries and nuke plants, drill for our oil, mine our coal.)
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To: kabar
He can't obtain a SS number until he becomes a LPR.

WRONG!

He has had a LEGAL SS# since the time he legally immigrated over three years ago. All you have to have is a legally recognized "A" number (visa) to get the SS department to issue a card. It states "employment not authorized without proper documentation" on the face of the card. Proper documentation is a "work permit" which is purchased (now $340.00 year) through USCIS. He has has that work permit ever since he arrived here in the U.S. A legal immigrant can get that work permit the day after arriving on U.S. soil.

So, he can legally work for (and pay taxes and even get his "rebate" check) any company in the U.S. EXCEPT the U.S. gov't! Like I said - broken system!

33 posted on 04/27/2008 6:39:31 AM PDT by TexasRedeye (Eschew obfuscation)
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To: kabar

> We are not France. We don’t need or want military service to be the vehicle for amnesty. It demeans those who currently serve or have served. As a veteran, I find your suggestion offensive.

Then as a Veteran you have a very thin skin and should probably toughen up as you are far too easily offended.

The French Foreign Legion model works extremely well and has withstood the test of time. If the suggestion is to recruit foreigners into your armed forces (which is, after all, the subject of this thread) then their model would be a good mechanism to adopt.

This wouldn’t be the first time America had help from France on matters military — just ask the Marquis de Lafayette.


34 posted on 04/27/2008 6:40:43 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: WorkingClassFilth
Oh yeah, that’s the ticket. Let’s hire mercenaries, Goths, Vandals and any other trash to patrol the empire for us. Seems to me I’ve read that story before.

Hand me another grape, won’t you?

I understand your thinking, but my opinion is that anyone who is willing to fight and possibly die for his new country has earned the right to citizenship.

This does not demean the contributions of natural-born citizens who enlist, but it certainly demonstrates the loyalty of those who choose to serve.

We have plenty of homegrown welfare drones with no patriotism. I would much rather live & work next to a man who earned his citizenship, than someone who spent his life learning Jeremiah Wright's treasonous poison.

I will bet you that after they separate from the service, there is no talk of Aztlan, MEChA, or going on welfare from these newly-minted citizen veterans. These are the kind of good solid contributors to our nation we need.

BTW, the Roman civilization you are so disparaging about lasted millennia. I have always learned that one of the reasons for this great success was their practice of granting citizenship to veterans. This summer, the USA will be 232 years old, at best. Get back to me in a thousand years or so and lets do a comparison of longevity of countries...

35 posted on 04/27/2008 7:03:41 AM PDT by CurlyDave
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To: uncbob

> Our army going the way of Rome with the legions made up of foreign mercenaries ?????????????

That’s hysterical. France has done just fine with its Foreign Legion, for just about as long as there has been an America.

Rome fell for many other reasons aside from their foreign troops.


36 posted on 04/27/2008 7:04:10 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: raybbr

> Isn’t that known as a mercenary?

No. A mercenary is an irregular, who fights on contract under officers of his own choosing. That is not the proposition being put here.


37 posted on 04/27/2008 7:05:40 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: kabar

> We don’t need mercenaries to fight for our country.

It is not the proposition of this thread to have “mercenaries” fighting for your country.

(BTW: you already do employ mercenaries, in Iraq.)


38 posted on 04/27/2008 7:08:31 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: DieHard the Hunter

You are advocating a mercenary army. Such an army has allegiance only to the highest bidder. Recruiting illegals for our military means they are just that: mercenaries. And mercenaries are very bribable. I don’t know about you, but I am not comfortable with a mercenary having access to sensitive security information who can be easily flipped with an offer of cash. No thanks. I want a military whose allegiance and loyalty is to the United States, not to a currency.


39 posted on 04/27/2008 7:12:07 AM PDT by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: ought-six

> You are advocating a mercenary army.

No, a Mercenary army fights on contract for employers and officers of their own choosing. That is not the proposition here. That is also not how the French Foreign Legion works.

(BTW: a “Mercenary” army looks more like Blackwater than it does the French Foreign Legion. Think about it...)

> Recruiting illegals for our military means they are just that: mercenaries.

Non-Sequitir. The two concepts are unrelated and you know it.

> I don’t know about you, but I am not comfortable with a mercenary having access to sensitive security information who can be easily flipped with an offer of cash.

What hysterical, utter nonsense.


40 posted on 04/27/2008 7:21:57 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: CurlyDave

“I will bet you that after they separate from the service, there is no talk of Aztlan, MEChA....”

I’ll take that bet. I know several hispanic veterans who openly proclaim their allegiance to the mythical Aztlan. For many hispanics La Raza trumps everything. Hell, just read some of MEChA’s tripe: MEChA advocates hispanics joining the US military to learn how to fight, with the sole purpose of using that training as a foundation for the (as they see it) inevitable conquest of the United States by Mexican interests. MEChA’s propaganda even called for killing all anglos, men, women and children. I’ve read some of MEChA’s vile tripe. It is hard-core marxism using ethnic cleansing (i.e., the elimination of all non-hispanics, especially anglos) as its tactic.


41 posted on 04/27/2008 7:27:38 AM PDT by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: Bastiat_Fan

“So long as they aren’t gang affiliated, isn’t someone willing to die for this country exactly the sort of person we WANT to become an American citizen?”

That’s pretty much the way I see it. Unfortunately, the military isn’t screening out the gangbangers, just training them to be more ‘effective’.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999411/posts

Tancredo Concerned Military Officials Unaware of Gang Infiltration in U.S. Army

(Latino)Gangs claim their turf in Iraq
May 03, 2006

http://towncriernews.blogspot.com/search?q=+%28Latino%29Gangs+claim+their+turf+in+Iraq

The Gangster Disciples, Latin Kings and Vice Lords were born decades ago in Chicago’s most violent neighborhoods. Now, their gang graffiti is showing up 6,400 miles away in one of the world’s most dangerous neighborhoods — Iraq.

Armored vehicles, concrete barricades and bathroom walls all have served as canvasses for their spray-painted gang art. At Camp Cedar II, about 185 miles southeast of Baghdad, a guard shack was recently defaced with “GDN” for Gangster Disciple Nation, along with the gang’s six-pointed star and the word “Chitown,” a soldier who photographed it said.

The graffiti, captured on film by an Army Reservist and provided to the Chicago Sun-Times, highlights increasing gang activity in the Army in the United States and overseas, some experts say.

Jeffrey Stoleson, an Army Reserve sergeant in Iraq, is seen in front of a barricade tagged with gang graffiti in March in Iraq. Stoleson, who has been in Iraq for almost a year, says he has taken hundreds of photos of gang graffiti there.

Click here for photo gallery »

Military and civilian police investigators familiar with three major Army bases in the United States — Fort Lewis, Fort Hood and Fort Bragg — said they have been focusing recently on soldiers with gang affiliations. These bases ship out many of the soldiers fighting in Iraq.

“I have identified 320 soldiers as gang members from April 2002 to present,” said Scott Barfield, a Defense Department gang detective at Fort Lewis in Washington state. “I think that’s the tip of the iceberg.”

Of paramount concern is whether gang-affiliated soldiers’ training will make them deadly urban warriors when they return to civilian life and if some are using their access to military equipment to supply gangs at home, said Barfield and other experts.

‘They don’t try to hide it’

Jeffrey Stoleson, an Army Reserve sergeant in Iraq for almost a year, said he has taken hundreds of photos of gang graffiti there.

In a storage yard in Taji, about 18 miles north of Baghdad, dozens of tanks were vandalized with painted gang symbols, Stoleson said in a phone interview from Iraq. He said he also took pictures of graffiti at Camp Scania, about 108 miles southeast of Baghdad, and Camp Anaconda, about 40 miles north of Baghdad. Much of the graffiti was by Chicago-based gangs, he said.

In civilian life, Stoleson is a correctional officer and co-founder of the gang interdiction team at a Wisconsin maximum-security prison. Now he is a truck commander for security escorts in Iraq. He said he watched two fellow soldiers in the Wisconsin Army National Guard 2nd Battalion, 127th Infantry, die Sept. 26 when a roadside bomb exploded. Five of Stoleson’s friends have been wounded.

Because of the extreme danger of his mission in Iraq, Stoleson said he does not relish the idea of working alongside gang members, whom he does not trust. Stoleson said he once reported to a supervisor that he suspected a company of soldiers in Iraq was rife with gang members.

“My E-8 [supervising sergeant] told me not to ruffle their feathers because they were doing a good job,” he said.

Stoleson said he has spotted soldiers in Iraq with tattoos signifying their allegiance to the Vice Lords and the Simon City Royals, another street gang spawned in Chicago.

“They don’t try to hide it,” Stoleson said.[snip]


42 posted on 04/27/2008 7:42:08 AM PDT by AuntB ('If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." T. Paine)
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To: DieHard the Hunter

“What hysterical, utter nonsense.”

You need to read up on the history of mercenaries. There are other types of mercenaries than Blackwater (which I assume is the example you were referring to). The Hessians were mercenaries. The French Foregin Legion is another example of a mercenary force (which knocks out your conclusion that mercs only fight on contract for employers and officers of their own choosing: If you knew anything about the FFL you’d know that its officers are French, and the enlistees have no say in who leads them; and unless the FFL has changed its policy, no non-Frenchman can become an officer in the FFL). As for your comment that recruiting illegals for our military is NOT mercenary, and the two concepts are unrelated, tell me, please, if — other than money — an illegal would join our military? Illegals certainly have no respect for our laws (they proved that when they broke our laws coming here), and they have no allegiance to the United States (in many instances they don’t even speak English, and have no intention of learning it; many — especially illegals from Mexico and Central America — have utter contempt for the United States and its citizens). The most basic definition of a mercenary is someone who signs a contract — usually for money — to fight for the interests of another, which usually means the interests of another country or government. Mercenaries do not, by definition, fight for their own countries or governments. Thus, illegals who sign a contract for money to fight for the United States are mercenaries.


43 posted on 04/27/2008 7:55:16 AM PDT by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: Antonio C

To admit illegal aliens into the military is insane. Already foreigners and felons are admitted. A sure way to destroy the military.


44 posted on 04/27/2008 7:58:12 AM PDT by Dante3
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To: Bastiat_Fan

Hey what did good old George Washington do? Fought for his citizenship. So long as they aren’t gang affiliated, isn’t someone willing to die for this country exactly the sort of person we WANT to become an American citizen?
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hey and we could probably get the illegal alien wives to be surrogate mothers upper east side Manhattan types too. just like american soldiers wives do now.


45 posted on 04/27/2008 8:04:13 AM PDT by ckilmer (Phi)
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To: Antonio C

The US should create an offshore foreign legion somewhat like the French Foreign Legion. Possibly a private company like Blackwater Security. It has all sorts of advantages.

To start with, we can recruit the best and brightest of citizens from other countries for this light infantry regiment. We can have Gurkhas, Sikhs, you name it. And not only would they cost a lot less than US personnel, they could be sent to military duties that we don’t particularly want our soldiers to do.

Put them on a Caribbean island, under US military officers and NCOs, they can do things like peacekeeping duties, disaster relief, and other crap jobs in nasty places like Darfur, where we don’t want to send our people.

The US military would provide their transportation and logistics. And best of all, we would have no objections to their being under UN or friendly foreign command.

More than anything else it would give the President more options to handle foreign policy situations. And if they were a private company in the Caribbean, it would mean that they could tell a leftist congress or Democrat President to go fish if they wanted to send them on some stupid adventure that would get them killed.


46 posted on 04/27/2008 8:06:27 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: DieHard the Hunter

> But as the nation fights wars on two fronts, some wonder whether the military should recruit more heavily among immigrants here — even undocumented ones — as well as foreigners in their own countries.

Built along the French Foreign Legion lines, this idea could work quite well.
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it worked so well more and more algerians are coming to france. hey the algerians earned the right to come to france. if the french lose france its tough titty to them.


47 posted on 04/27/2008 8:06:37 AM PDT by ckilmer (Phi)
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To: ought-six

> The French Foregin Legion is another example of a mercenary force

What arrant nonsense! The French Foreign Legion is an elite force within the Regular French Army. It is not a mercenary force. Most (not all) of its senior officers are of French birth. All of its soldiers are subject to French military law.

Mercenaries are irregular soldiers who fight on contract for employers of their own choosing and led by officers of their own choosing.

> As for your comment that recruiting illegals for our military is NOT mercenary, and the two concepts are unrelated, tell me, please, if — other than money — an illegal would join our military?

Let’s see: the opportunity of Citizenship after a term of service? (possibly the best reason) The chance of adventure? The opportunity to get a new start in life? The opportunity to receive training and a career path? All of those reasons apply to the FFL, very few join the FFL for the pay (it is notoriously low).


48 posted on 04/27/2008 8:26:54 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: DieHard the Hunter; ought-six

For the removal of doubt on what a “mercenary” soldier is, refer to the Laws of War, Article 47:

Art 47. Mercenaries

1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.
2. A mercenary is any person who:

(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

Note that each of 2a-2f must apply for a combatant to be considered a “Mercenary” and thus an unlawful combatant. Members of the French Foreign Legion and the Gurkhas fail this test in 2a,c,d,e,f and are thus considered to be lawful combatants ie NOT MERCENARIES.


49 posted on 04/27/2008 8:40:08 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: ckilmer

> it worked so well more and more algerians are coming to france. hey the algerians earned the right to come to france. if the french lose france its tough titty to them.

Algerians coming to France has nothing to do with the French Foreign Legion and everything to do with how France mis-managed its dissolving empire. Rather the same with the British, sadly.


50 posted on 04/27/2008 8:46:10 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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