Posted on 04/27/2008 4:10:46 PM PDT by forkinsocket
FORT RILEY, Kan. — When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.
But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. “People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!” Major Welborn said, according to the statement.
Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.
Last month, Specialist Hall and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group, filed suit in federal court in Kansas, alleging that Specialist Hall’s right to be free from state endorsement of religion under the First Amendment had been violated and that he had faced retaliation for his views. In November, he was sent home early from Iraq because of threats from fellow soldiers.
Eileen Lainez, a spokeswoman for the Defense Department, declined to comment on the case, saying, “The department does not discuss pending litigation.”
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
If everything in the article is true, and it’s a big if, then not should Specialist Hall clean up in court, but it looks like there is a major house cleaning needed in the military. Now, I suspect there is another side to this story, and I’d really like to hear it.
Funny how they not only expect to be able to say anything they want but expect to be honored for their ideas.
America is a Christian nation, get used to it.
There are practicing Wiccans and Muslims in the Army. Yet this Major is going to risk his career to harass Atheists.
Right...
It’ll all come out in court.
He was sent home early from a tour in Iraq and they are suing.
LOL!
***I’m raising the BS flag. Not just because it’s the New York Times...
There are practicing Wiccans and Muslims in the Army. Yet this Major is going to risk his career to harass Atheists.***
I will agree with you on this. BS! I knew several self-proclaimed atheists in the military back in the 1960’s and they were not harrassed for it. They did seem to have bad attitudes though.
I’ve seen far too many zealot missionaries as officers in the military for my tastes. My last unit commander was just that type.
Nice guy outside of that, but once the ‘Praise Jesus’ button was pressed... it was time to run for the hills.
So this really isn’t all hard to believe.
I don't believe this guy is up to what your measuring.
Do you have a "domestic fowl fecal matter detector"?
No need to sue the army, just tell them to go to hell!:)
Sad, but when I saw “NYT”, my belief-O-meter just wouldn’t register. We’ll see what happens.
He was sent home early from a tour in Iraq and they are suing.
Perhaps he was threatened by his fellow soldiers because he was a pain in the rump or even dangerously incompetent.
Me too. However my "Baloney-Meter" was off the charts!
...well, the thing is the foxhole atheist is an “endangered specie.”
No, America is a nation that is predominantly Christian, not a Christian nation
Really? So who got sent home from your unit?
-------------------------
I'm telling you he got all Jesus on me! Send me home!!!
A lot of people around here don't think there should be either.
Whether or not we’re a Christian nation or not, has nothing to do with it. If this soldier’s story is true, which I doubt, then heads should roll.
What I personally suspect, and I’ll freely admit that it’s without proof is that this guy was not just an atheist but a confrontational anti-religionist. The two are not the same, not at all.
I’ll grant you it’s possible that Hall’s story is true. I’m just skeptical.
“If this soldier’s story is true, which I doubt, then heads should roll.”
Why?
“I’ll freely admit that it’s without proof is that this guy was not just an atheist but a confrontational anti-religionist. The two are not the same, not at all.”
I’ve met agnostics that are not confrontational but can’t say I’ve met a atheist that didn’t relish a chance to attach Christians.
One of the most moral and decent guys I met in the Air Force was a practicing Pagan. Go figure...
If a carrier pigeon landed on the window ledge of the old Grey Whore with one sentence in pig latin even hinting of such an incident, then the Slimes would be all over it and make up the rest of the story.
Therefore and wherefore, considering the hard-on the Slimes has to in any way discredit religion and/or the military, and the resultant level of excitement even the thought of such a story would generate in that Marxist barrel of ink ... I’d say there is less than 10% chance of the story being accurate.
Your Honor, I therefore move for dismissal of the charges against the soldier in question, and with your permission, I would like to bring charges against the management of the newspaper involved, for slander.
I pretty much this story is a 1 sided piece of balogna. This guy sounds like an annoying piece of work. I knew a couple of guys like this when I was in, and NOBODY liked them.
Why?
Because if it's true, he was singled out for his religion and persecuted. That's not the American way, and it's certainly not the Christian way. In no way should behavior like that be tolerated. It's alarming that you even had to ask why.
I’ve met agnostics that are not confrontational but can’t say I’ve met a atheist that didn’t relish a chance to attach Christians.
Probably because most atheists didn't care enough to make their atheism known. The ones you encountered were vocal and antagonistic.
My experience in the Air Force was the the vast majority of people just didn’t care what religious beliefs a person had, but were much more focused on the job at hand, the traditions of the military etc. Which were pre-dominantly Judeo-Christian, (easy to see at Arlington) AND once a person began to berate another’s beliefs...
like one occasionally sees around here on ID/creationism threads like calling them “fairy tells” and “mythology”...
Well, THEN they catch hell, with both barrels and rightly so...
and this is exactly what’s going on here.
Just like homosexual liberals want to re-mold the boy scouts, liberal lunatics continuously want to damage our society, including from within our military.
“No, America is a nation that is predominantly Christian, not a Christian nation”
Our nation was founded by people seeking freedom to worship Christianity in the way they wanted. They were devout Christians and many leaders were practicing ministers. They incorporated their Christian beliefs into our founding documents, laws, and culture. Historic and political structures created during that time and for at least 150 years after the founding have Christian symbols prominently displayed.
We are a Christian nation despite those that have strayed in the last few decades and wishful thinking of those people that hate God.
Exactly tpanther, he was most likely criticizing others for their belief and couldn’t take the heat for his exercising of free speech. Its likely he was focusing more on his anti-religion views than his mission, which is why a major lowered the boom.
“Congress shall make no law RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
A “Christian nation,” like a “Muslim nation” is one that has a legally established standard religion. We don’t have that in this country. True “free exercise” is generally incompatible with “establishment of religion.”
If he was threatened by his fellow soldiers in a combat zone I’m gonna wager that it was over something more down-to-earth than a theology debate at the FOB.
I believe I already said pretty much the same thing. I highly doubt his atheism brought these woes upon him.
Where you and I disagree, is that you seem to think that he deserves ill-treatment solely for being an atheist. That I do not agree with at all.
“Where you and I disagree, is that you seem to think that he deserves ill-treatment solely for being an atheist. That I do not agree with at all. “
Sorry I wasn’t clear, he deserves ill treatment for forcing his anti-religion on everyone else.
All people should be treated with love and respect until they show they do not deserve it.
‘A “Christian nation,” like a “Muslim nation” is one that has a legally established standard religion. We don’t have that in this country. True “free exercise” is generally incompatible with “establishment of religion.””
I didn’t say Christian government, I said Christian nation. However in many public places the only religion you cannot practice is Christianity.
Odd. I’ve got 25 years in, and I’ve NEVER seen an officer push religion of any sort on anyone.
In private conversation, yes - and that is perfectly legal.
In public? No.
John Adams (the second President of the United States)
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”
From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”
Additional quotes from John Adams:
“Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?”
“The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”
“...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)
Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”
From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”
Jefferson’s “The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom”:
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
From Thomas Jefferson’s Bible:
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
Jefferson’s Notes on Virginia:
“Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?”
Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
“It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
“They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”
“I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”
“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.”
“Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.”
“...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry.”
James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)
Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
Additional quote from James Madison:
“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
Benjamin Franklin
From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.”
From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”
Thomas Paine
From The Age of Reason, pp. 8–9:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”
From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”
From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”
From The Age of Reason:
“What is it the Bible teaches us? — rapine, cruelty, and murder.”
From The Age of Reason:
“Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches.”
From The Age of Reason:
“The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it — not to terrify but to extirpate.”
Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”
Ethan Allen
From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”
They weren’t fleeing islam or judism. They were fleeing the Church of England. The primary reason people left England was for the freedom to worship.
Declaration of Independence
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,”
I could post as more quotes supporting Christianity from the founding fathers. I just don’t have the time.
So a cut and paste job? And most if not all taken out of context. Far too many other “quotes” to be found that show the opposite. Funny there’s nothing in your list that quotes George Washington. Just as amusing are the Jefferson quotes, Jefferson was the one you know that cut all the words of Jesus and anything else he didn’t agree with out of the Bible.
The major’s attitude is not that suprising. I spent 22+ years in the military as an enlisted and officer. I’ve had more senior NCOs and officers as well as subordinates behave that way. I was told several times that I could not be a good NCO because I held a different denominational belief set than the more senior officer or NCO. It is not something that is conducive to maintaining good morale and it shows a true lack of leadership on the part of the individual. Our founding fathers were Christians, but they held varying belief sets and degrees of belief. They did not found a Christian nation. They founded a nation based in Christian beliefs with one important difference from those other nations of the time; they knew the importance of tolerance for all beliefs and also for those who had no specific beliefs. The constitution does not designate any specific belief, Christian or otherwise and does not preclude any american or patriot from having no religious belief. The major in question should not hold a position of responsibility over any personnel. You rely on the rest of your unit to cover you and have your back. If your opinion of my beliefs gets in the way of that then you are a liability.
Well, the most I had to deal with was with the mandatory inprocessing interview with the commander. And that’s when I received the full ‘how is the state of your soul’ spiel. That, and his ever-so-helpful pro-active emailing of the base chaplains regarding my arrival - you know, so that I could be ‘reminded’ to attend chapel services. Nevermind whether I was Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, or Jewish.
After that, if I had to be around him, I would make sure to try and divert his attention away from anything that might resemble a discussion about religion.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,”
That is more in line with Deism, not Christianity.
If it were truly supportive of Christianity, it would have said, "...that they are endowed by Jesus with certain unalienable Rights..."
My thinking exactly. Typically, the defendant has a very different story than the plaintiff.
And why the hell would the Army give a crap about atheists giving their life for the country? I don’t. My test is about ‘whether’ you are willing to give your life not whether you believe you will be rewarded in the afterlife for having done it.
And if this Major really did what is said then he needs to be upbraided or censured (whatever the language is). But once this becomes some big victim story and unit cohesion is disrupted, then you can’t go back and fix it. And somebody other than the Major is probably responsible for that part.
Typically, its a case where an aggrieved party makes themselve some kind of special case because they feel discriminated against and that tends to make the rest of the group want to finish the job. Group dynamics require an adherence to specific principles and when you put OTHER principles ABOVE the ones you all follow to protect yours and your fellow soldiers lives then you are disrupting the dynamic of the unit and the unit will seek to find a stability by removing the disrupting cause - ie, you. But even in the middle of a war, victimhood could trump everything.
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