Posted on 04/28/2008 8:52:06 AM PDT by no nau
May I ask a question? What the heck is going on in Texas with the kids caught up in the polygamy ranch disaster?
Look, I am not a fan of polygamy. For one thing, it's all any man can do keeping up with one wife. For another, it's against the law in this country.
But the polygamists that have been in the news have been operating for decades. The authorities knew about it, and them. They didn't do a thing about it for all those years!
Then, on a totally unsubstantiated telephone call about sex abuse - which apparently did not come from anyone even connected to the polygamist compound - the state closed down the compound, and (what is totally incomprehensible) took the small children of the settlement away from their mothers and fathers.
Why? What crime had the kids committed? Why are they being dealt the most drastic punishment imaginable - separation from their mothers and fathers - for no known reason?
The state of Texas has not found one single crime against these children yet. Even if they do find one or two, how can that be a reason for taking dozens, maybe hundreds of children away from their mothers?
The kids are the victims here - not of the parents, but of the incredible, unbelievable cruelty of the state of Texas authorities. If there is evidence of cruelty by the families to these kids, where is it?
Look, I am a huge fan of Texas. I have many friends there and love being there. But what is the attorney general of Texas doing? This is an Orwellian nightmare. For no reason except what looks like a crank call, the lives of these children have been turned upside down and into a screaming horror movie.
Can't someone say the obvious here? That in this case, it's not the Mormons who are the criminals, it's the government of Texas.
Governor Perry, wake up and give those kids back to their mothers until you have some compelling, proven reason to do otherwise. What your state is doing here is Gestapo tactics pure and simple.
Are we simply pawns of the State?
What Did The Branch Davidian Kids Do To Deserve This?
Well, they are white. They must owe somebody. ;)
So, that “They didn’t do a thing about it for all those years!” should necessitate that they never so anything?
for later
Uh oh... Ben Stein is going to make the anti-cult cult very angry. ;-)
Wonder if they are going to show up claiming Ben Stein is also a polygamist child molesting Mormon because he is defending them?
I think this abuse should have been ended years earlier. Escapees from this cult are clearly telling us we can’t understand the depth of the abuse and our eyes tell us these people are robots. This is not a problem for me.
But as to why it’s happening now, I have my own theory. For years Mormons flew under the notice of the MSM, now suddenly they are on it. Hmmm, I wonder why?
They have yet to even produce the person who made the ‘phone call’ to alert media of the horrors there.
So... on the face of a (mythical) call from a (possibly non-existant) complainant they invade private property and take away 413 children?
I have had dealings with the CPS... trust me when i tell you that INCOMPETANT is not strong enough of a word.
At least Janet Reno was not there to roast these children alive, but hey! HilLIARy’s trying to make a comeback with these guys into the white house
I think Mr. Stein's implication is that the years in which the authorities did nothing demonstrate a lack of urgency on their part. The drastic act of removing hundreds of children from their parents is the very definition of urgency, and it seems that the only difference is the one phone call. Was the phone call alone sufficient evidence to justify such an urgent response, or should the Texas authorities have investigated the situation more carefully before undertaking such drastic measures?
With all due respect, Ben, kids are taken away from criminal parents all the time, and I've never seen you ask what crime the kids committed then.
Sorry, but the kids needed to be taken away from these parents, and the parents tossed in jail. Just because other states didn't do it doesn't mean it shouldn't be done now.
Why should they 'produce' her for the media? How do you know she isn't hidden away somewhere to keep her safe?
What did Jewish kids do to deserve Josef Mengele?
“So... on the face of a (mythical) call from a (possibly non-existant) complainant they invade private property and take away 413 children?”
Try doing a little research. It would appear that you get all your news from FR member postings who get their news from other FR member posts.
So it seems.
Case in point: Warren Jeffs (not a nice person) is accused of being an accomplice to one or two cases of rape. Granted, that's pretty bad. But did that really warrant his being on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted list? Surely we had some gang bangers, terrorists, drug dealers, or violent bank robbers who more deserved such attention? I mean, the guy wasn't even a rapist, he was just an accomplice. This is like putting the getaway driver for a bank robber on the FBI Top Ten. Seriously, this was an abuse of that crime fighting tool.
And now we have an over-eager government raiding the FLDS and seizing all of the children and raiding their temple when our soldiers in Iraq will not invade a mosque even if they're being fired at from within the mosque.
Let me clarify: Muslim terrorists get more respect from our government for their sacred places than do the FLDS who are American citizens.
Why is our government going out of the way to go after these people with a level of force that is consistently disproportionate to the crimes taking place? And who is pulling the strings to make all of this happen?
Both sides of the argument on this forum have made some good points.
The police should investigate after receiving a telephone call allegedly from a girl claiming to be abused. OTOH, once they were unable to locate the teen girl who called - and it appeared the call was a hoax - they really had no business rounding up all the families.
At this point, imho, it appears these people are being treated as guilty until proven innocent.
You seem to have forgotten the ,< s> < /s>, sarcasm on, sarcasm off, even a newbie like me knows how to do that. You might try the html bootcamp. it has some really neat stuff to make your post more understandable.
With out the sarcasm on sarcasm off signs people will thin you're being serious about taking kids from lawfully married parents.
“Are we simply pawns of the State?
So it seems.”
In what way is that?
Sadly, yes, IMHO.
They didn’t do anything to deserve this mess!
Yes, a report on CNN tried to use the race card against the FLDS. I’m sure if you followed the route of that story it would take you right to the People’s Republic of Texas.
Had they rolled in and found everything in order (birth and marriage certificates, for example), these children would still be living there, and the investigation would be over.
Instead, they rolled in, and found 10 pregnant 14 year old girls.
How much more investigation is necessary?
“Sorry, but the kids needed to be taken away from these parents, and the parents tossed in jail. Just because other states didn’t do it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done now.”
That’s right...those nasty protesters in Lhasa, Tibet. Oh wait, that’s right...we’re talking about laws that are totalitarian in Texas.
“OTOH, once they were unable to locate the teen girl who called - and it appeared the call was a hoax - they really had no business rounding up all the families.”
Problem is, they paid a call to the ranch to check on the call. What they saw there prompted the warrant.
“At this point, imho, it appears these people are being treated as guilty until proven innocent.”
Just like every person who has ever been arrested.
Gee. Could you at least do some research before pontificating?
“In May and July of 2007 the State of Arizona charged him (Jeffs) with eight additional counts—including sexual conduct with minors and incest—in two separate cases.”
“But aside from that, if you think otherwise, well that is the nice thing about our Republic you can think any way you want. Please allow me the same privilege.”
It’s not a privilege, it’s your right. I nor anyone else can take it from you. I was just curious why you felt we were pawns of the state? Well, aside from that whole tax thing, anyway. ;)
So my question to you is what makes Jeffs so bad that he should be the focus of national attention when the nation is at war with people who want to kill us all? And aren't there worse rapists out there than Jeffs? Why aren't they on the FBI Top Ten now that Jeffs is in jail?
Or accuse him of being on the FLDS payroll as was done to a poster here on FR.
“Yes, a report on CNN tried to use the race card against the FLDS. I’m sure if you followed the route of that story it would take you right to the People’s Republic of Texas.”
The cult is racist and the report was probably taken straight from the cult leaders teachings, here are the audio recordings.
http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ040305.html
Audio clips reveal FLDS leader’s racist teachings
The Eldorado Success has obtained audio recordings of Warren Jeffs, prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The recordings seem to support claims by former FLDS members that Jeffs teachings are racist, especially as they concern African-Americans.
In one of the clips Jeffs says, “You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth or rude and filthy, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.” Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #1
Yet another of the clips has Jeffs saying, “So I give this lesson on the black race that you can understand its full effect as far as we are able to comprehend. And that we must beware, if we are for the prophet, for priesthood, we will come out of the world an leave off their dress, their music, their styles, their fashions, the way they think - what they do, because you can trace back and see a connection with immoral filthy people.” Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #2
In another clip Jeffs explains that the Negro race which he calls the “seed of Cain” survived the flood of Noah because Noah’s son Ham was married to “a wife of that seed” which he identified as being black. He claimed it was necessary for the black race to be preserved “because it was necessary that the Devil should have a representation upon the Earth as well as God.” He continues by saying, “So, the day of the Negro is continued and today is the day of the Negro, as far as the world is concerned.” Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #3
Jeffs goes on to say that anyone who “mingles their seed with the seed of Cain, the Negro, they also would lose all rights to priesthood blessings.” Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #4
Strangely, the audio clips reveals Jeffs instructing a group of teachers on the history of rock and roll music. In it Jeffs claims the 60’s rock group The Beatles were trained to perform by an unnamed homosexual black man who was a drug user. Jeffs said that before they received the training the British singers were “pingy-pangy unnoticed useless people nobody would hire.” However, after learning the black beat, the group became world famous and all other music has followed that pattern, Jeffs said.
Jeffs then cautioned his audience that when they listen to rock music, they are “enjoying the spirit of the black race,” an activity he says will “rot the soul and lead the person to immorality, to corruption, to forget their prayers, to forget God. Thus the whole world has partaken of the spirit of the Negro race.” Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #5
You get your “facts” wrong and then shriek at me about comments I never made.
Wow.
Could you please list the criminal practices for which charges have been filed?
To be perfectly clear: I’m not defending the FLDS’ practices nor their beliefs. I think they’re weird. Their lifestyle is disturbing at best, and I think their beliefs are dangerous. Also, I don’t care about them. This may be the first time I’ve even commented on this story here. I hope their group is broken up.
But there could be bigger implications in this story for all of us. As I said, both sides of the argument have valid points. But, there has to be some evidence of a crime against the people arrested and the mothers whose children have been removed.
Maybe I haven’t kept up with the story enough. Why have ALL the families been rounded up? If they found some pregnant teen girls, I can understand them being taken into protective custody. Then the case could proceed cautiously. But, why did they remove all of the children so immediately from their mothers? That’s not a rhetorical question; it’s an actual question.
My admiration for Ben Stein just went through the roof.
The fact that he had the chutzpah to make a movie like “Expelled” was already amazing enough. But to defend the rights of children and parents when the lynch mob is in full hue and cry takes tremendous courage.
Thank you Ben Stein for saying what so many others are afraid of saying, especially after they see so-called “conservatives” right here on FR accuse them of being child molesters simply for defending our rights not to have our children ripped away from us based on a complete hoax.
“So my question to you is what makes Jeffs so bad that he should be the focus of national attention when the nation is at war with people who want to kill us all? And aren’t there worse rapists out there than Jeffs? Why aren’t they on the FBI Top Ten now that Jeffs is in jail?”
Warren Jeffs is the prophet of the cult, it is his picture over the children’s beds in Texas.
The cults religion requires the child rape ceremonies that the cult conducts and that members are being convicted of.
Jeffs himself has been convicted for the practice by a Utah court and he is now in Arizona for his trial in that state for conducting those same religious rapes within the cult.
That group in Texas is his hand picked, cream of the crop, it is unlikely that they would be the ones that aren’t following their leaders teachings and requirements for the child rape.
Warren Jeffs has drawn the attention you speak of because he controls a 10,000 member cult that practices child rape and other crimes.
The compound in Texas is his flagship compound, it is his most valued and most trusted, and where he built the cults first temple.
Frankly, I’m honestly tired of your histrionics and if you were not to respond to any of my posts in the future I’d much appreciate that.
The gubmint is going to find those kids good homes with decent upright homosexuals. Having more than one mommy is only permissible if your mommies are a lesbian couple.
LOL... Funniest line today.
They are not lawfully married if they have multiple spouses.
Is this true? I hadn’t heard that yet. I BELIEVE it, mind you, just ain’t heard it yet.
True. But this alone is not a crime. Many Catholics have pictures of the Pope in their homes and that does not make them guilty of anything. The FLDS can post pictures of whomever they want to, it is a free country.
The cults religion requires the child rape ceremonies that the cult conducts and that members are being convicted of.
"Child rape ceremonies" - your documented proof of this is...where?
Jeffs himself has been convicted for the practice by a Utah court and he is now in Arizona for his trial in that state for conducting those same religious rapes within the cult.
That much is true. He is on trial for these things.
That group in Texas is his hand picked, cream of the crop, it is unlikely that they would be the ones that aren’t following their leaders teachings and requirements for the child rape.
Then I suppose we should exterminate them all because they've been around for a century and are unlikely to change or repent any time soon.
Warren Jeffs has drawn the attention you speak of because he controls a 10,000 member cult that practices child rape and other crimes.
Again, I'm sorry, but this does not warrant his being listed alongside people who are a threat to national security. He needs to be in jail, I agree, but I do not agree that he warranted so much attention. I also don't see why the raid on the ranch required so many SWAT teams and armored vehicles.
The compound in Texas is his flagship compound, it is his most valued and most trusted, and where he built the cults first temple.
It is a ranch. The use of the term "compound" is a MSM device that is being used to inflame emotions against these people and I am terribly disappointed at the number of FReepers being sucked into that devious twist of language. If the FLDS ranch is a "compound" then so is every single liberal cohousing project in the entire country.
And so what that they have their temple there? We have Wahhbist mosques in this country where imams preach hate against the USA and we respect their rights. These people just wish to be left alone and we send in the troops.
So when are we raiding the mosques that send young girls to Pakistan and etc. for child marriages? When will we raid the mosques that send young men overseas for terror training? When will we act against the mosques that advocate excising the genitals of young girls?
As I said, worse things are going on in this country and it's these people whom the troops go after.
Bingo!
Oh sure, they're such martyrs.
Maybe if they hadn't been breaking the law, they would have been left alone.
“Of course, all of that overlooks that the State of Texas has made no showing that the children they took into custody are being abused. (I recently heard an analysis that the teen pregnancy rate at the FLDS compound is 1/2 the teen pregnancy rate in Texas generally.) Of course, if under age marriage is the issue, why did they take all of the boys and all of the girls below, say, 10?”
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